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iPhone 13 and Redesigned MacBook Pro Chip Production Hit With Gas Contamination

jk73 said:
No chance Apple releases a new MBP with Intel. None. That ship sailed.
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Don’t forget this…from Apple, June 2020.

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”…exciting new Intel-based Macs in development.” So far, I believe, we’ve only seen one new Intel-based Mac and nothing really new in that model, just an upgrade.
 
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Now may not be the best time to upgrade any technology that isn’t absolutely necessary. The problems internally with chips very difficult to troubleshoot and fix. Imagine a sensor in ones car for auto braking having a flaw. I am sitting on existing working technology through next year. If I am not alone, technology companies are going to take a financial hit.
 
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i'm really hoping no delays on the MBP 14/16" models ... we've waited LONG enough and my $duckets is ready!

iPhone 13 I can wait for ... even if 30 days delayed the 12 series is killing it - it has room to continue to grow.

4743913 said:
Maybe apple should skip the phones this year and concentrate on the mac transition.
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Agreed. Going to a 2yr cycle would allow Apple to bring in more significant innovations.
Benjamin Nabulsi said:
That means more product leaks are coming
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lol doubtful.
 
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npmacuser5 said:
Now may not be the best time to upgrade any technology that isn’t absolutely necessary. The problems internally with chips very difficult to troubleshoot and fix. Imagine a sensor in ones car for auto braking having a flaw. I am sitting on existing working technology through next year. If I am not alone, technology companies are going to take a financial hit.
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Maybe, but this couldn’t have been the first such contamination. Who knows how many times this has happened without it making the news?
 
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npmacuser5 said:
Now may not be the best time to upgrade any technology that isn’t absolutely necessary. The problems internally with chips very difficult to troubleshoot and fix. Imagine a sensor in ones car for auto braking having a flaw. I am sitting on existing working technology through next year. If I am not alone, technology companies are going to take a financial hit.
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I can certainly understand that desire, but I skipped the iphone 12 and it's time for a new phone. :) I have no doubt if it isn't right at first and it takes a long time to get here, Apple will eventually make it right. This kind of problem sounds like the kind where it either works or doesn't work, period, so if they ship it, it will work.
 
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jakebrosy said:
This may not sound like a big deal but, having worked in a fab, I know how bad this can be.

While I didn't sell to Fab 18, it's 300mm and 5nm, and depending on how early in the process the contaminated gas was introduced, and was it a flush gas or was it deposited, this could have a significant impact on production. This could mean the loss of millions of dollars of production and require the cleaning of dozens of machines, conveyors, handlers...bad, really really bad.

Beside a broken wafer or handling finger this is about an engineer's biggest fear in a fab. I would not want to be the gas supplier right now.
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I have worked in a fab and depending on how long it took to detect that defect, it could potentially scrap the entire line. Not a good day!
 
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boswald said:
I’d like to visit a site like that once. Just to know how they work and learn about the process. Watching the critical components of the products I use being made in front of me sounds incredible!
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It's hot and uncomfortable most of the time. And you never touch a wafer or really see anything. Wafers are in boxes on a rail at the roof running all over hell and half of creation. They are taken straight into furnaces or etchers or what-have-you and unloaded and process then reboxed. If you DO touch a wafer at this point it's trash.

Wearing a Tyvek-like suit with a double layer of gloves and tyvek booties taped to your suit + a full head wrap is uncomfortable and pretty much zero fun.

Plus, it reminds of the past 18 months: when I ran into people I worked with on the street we put one hand over our forehead and the other over our nose and mouth before we recognized one another. Disorienting.

I had lots of people want tours but after the first 5 minutes they were looking for an escape hatch.

Oddly the coolest spot in a fab is lying on the floor because the air is pulled down through the ventilated floor and into HEPA filters and brings in new air conditioned air from the roof.

Just for fun I'm adding a photo of my souvenier 200mm bare wafer. You can see that atmospheric moisture has dotted the silicon. You can see the registration notch on at the 7PM position.
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Somewhere I have a 100mm test wafer that has a pattern on it: wonder which book sandwiched that's into?
 
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bobcomer said:
I can certainly understand that desire, but I skipped the iphone 12 and it's time for a new phone. :) I have no doubt if it isn't right at first and it takes a long time to get here, Apple will eventually make it right. This kind of problem sounds like the kind where it either works or doesn't work, period, so if they ship it, it will work.
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Missed my wider then Apple problem. All technology scrambling and as such buyer beware. Additionally I have enough interaction with Apple regarding problems. Yes, they will make it right. The time it takes does not interest me. Again, not exclusively an Apple concern.
 
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apparatchik said:
I can picture Intel’s new CEO petting a white cat while laughing loudly on a dark and solitary office…
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I dont think you follow Pat Gelsinger much. He is not that kind of CEO.

jakebrosy said:
Not trying to be a troll here. But I have first-hand experience.

I spent a decade at a major chip manufacturer and even something as small as bringing in an unclean ballpoint pen can shutdown an entire fab. Every single thing that enters the production line (front or back end) has to be wiped down with IPA and sealed in a bag that was also wiped down with IPA. These are the cleanest places on the planet.

And that's for things that DON'T necessarily enter a machine. Remember, these machines are as big as most of our bathrooms and each machine costs millions of dollars. They are designed to operate in a sterile environment. A single human hair, at the 5nm scale, will destroy every single 300mm wafer in a 10 or 25-wafer lot. Or more lots if the wafers are mixed and matched in follow-on processes like happens in a lot of gigafabs. Few fabs can afford to keep lots segregated due to the hundreds of depositions, etches and inspections.

Again, we don't KNOW what happened here but it's safe to say that they are bleeding and flushing gas lines, decontaminating dozens (or hundred) of machines, transfer boxes, wafer handlers, inspection stations...they are shut down until this is solved.
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Very rare high quality comments on HN. One minor notes, machines cost "tens and in some cases hundreds of millions".
 
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Mac4Mat said:
Interesting article:


Personally I think the concern is overdone here though, and I notice that this information has been put out to virtually every media organisation and many others beside, which does give a hint to the scarcity principle of demand
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Good thing you have first-hand experience of contaminated gas in a chip production environment to base your opinion, right? We wouldn't want a half-cocked ninny running around telling everyone that this is fine.

Had it been something dangerous like....oh, I don't know arsenic....that was contaminated with something like fairly-common-in-the-atmosphere hydrogen--to create arsine--which is a highly toxic and pyrophoric gas and mixed in a 1400ºC pressurized glass furnace you might think differently. Because half the fab would be gone and hundreds would be dead in the surrounding area. An environmental insult par excellence.
 
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jakebrosy said:
Not trying to be a troll here. But I have first-hand experience.

I spent a decade at a major chip manufacturer and even something as small as bringing in an unclean ballpoint pen can shutdown an entire fab. Every single thing that enters the production line (front or back end) has to be wiped down with IPA and sealed in a bag that was also wiped down with IPA. These are the cleanest places on the planet.
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They wipe it down with India Pale Ale? Sounds like a party factory!
 
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Shirasaki said:
You’ve waited this long. It doesn’t hurt to wait for a few more months so good chips are out instead of rushed potentially bad chips.
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True but I still want an Apple silicon (upgraded from M1) in a nwe 14" MBP with 1080P minimum camera (with that sweet feature from M1 iPad for auto focusing).

Also I need a new PC and right now, not wanting my personal machine to be Intel/AMD based.
 
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npmacuser5 said:
Now may not be the best time to upgrade any technology that isn’t absolutely necessary. The problems internally with chips very difficult to troubleshoot and fix. Imagine a sensor in ones car for auto braking having a flaw. I am sitting on existing working technology through next year. If I am not alone, technology companies are going to take a financial hit.
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But isn't the essential part of all this that the problem was noticed, and mitigatory action is happening?

MacRumors said:
The company said that it is carrying out follow-up operations to ensure that product quality is not affected, and the incident is not believed to have caused a "significant impact on operations."
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My reading of the situation is that the problem happened, was discovered, employees were recalled to help deal with the issue and steps are being taken to make sure the items output by the factory are not compromised by the occurrence - i.e. quality control.

If that QC process is robust (and you'd think it would be, given that sub-standard product could trigger clauses & penalties/lose custom from huge corporations like Apple), the chips that actually make it into products should be fine and work as they should.
 
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Wesd1234 said:
It’s a hell of a ride for Apple suppliers this year
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Same every year even without COVID etc. I remember when the 8 plus was hard to get they were sold out lol. Apple plays the game with precision. Big delay in the iPhone 13 so no reason not to buy the 12 now 😎. Speaking of that I’m keeping my 12 promax until next year. I still expect the same design for the 14, probably no notch and in display finger print scanner. The 13 won’t really be much better unless your a real pro and that better ultra wide upgrade is “essential” 😉
 
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