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I just looked at Apple’s financials over the past 4 quarters. Gross margins for the past 4 quarters were 38%, 38.5%, 38.9%, 38.5%. Profit margin last quarter was 19.1%, down from 20.8% the previous quarter. Don’t need anyone’s experience when the numbers are easy to look up. :)

And those are iPhone only?
 
Not to mention the fact that you can get AppleCare tech support on the phone whenever you want. Any guesses at the cost of maintaining an army of onshore tech support call centers?
 
And those are iPhone only?
Of course not. You know Apple only provides revenue and sales figures for iPhone. But iPhone is the largest component of Apple’s business. If you think iPhone’s margins are higher what product do you think is dragging them back down to 38-39%?
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That's a regular, competitive market - not a crazy hype driven near-monopoly unconditionally kept alive by a follower herd
Microsoft’s profit margin last quarter was 27%. Apple’s was 19%.
 
Of course not. You know Apple only provides revenue and sales figures for iPhone. But iPhone is the largest component of Apple’s business. If you think iPhone’s margins are higher what product do you think is dragging them back down to 38-39%?
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Microsoft’s profit margin last quarter was 27%. Apple’s was 19%.
...which eventually might stem from it doing more than selling reordered bytes
 
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Almost as interesting as the way people assume a $250 bill of materials somehow should produce free labor, development, marketing, retail read estate, and unpaid sales associates.
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Record profits by volume, but margins are about on par with history. No, they shouldn’t cut their margins as more people buy their products over time.

Henry Ford would strongly disagree with you. Look at how great the Model T worked out for him as he dropped prices from $850 down to $300. His passion was to get a Ford into every person's driveway which he did through a combination of manufacturing innovations and low prices for a good quality product. Was Ford concerned about profits? Not as his primary goal. He was the Steve Jobs of his time. Make a tremendous product that multitudes of people can buy and the profits will follow. Innovation, efficiency, and scale allow you to sell at a lower price and enable more people to purchase your product. This is a key trait of a person who is passionate about the product they are making.

This is unlike Tim Cook who is taking the John Scully approach to business and making revenue and profit the main focus. That is a fine application of the business mantra of "shareholder profit first" but it changes the view of the customer from the person who is supposed to get the utility out of your product to nothing more than an open wallet from whom the corporation tries to extract the most money.
 
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The iPhone 8 and iPhone 8 Plus are more expensive for Apple to manufacture than the iPhone 7 and iPhone 7 Plus, according to component cost estimates research firm IHS Markit shared today with Bloomberg.

This is the important take-away info. It's just a comparison of build costs, not of profits. The actual value isn't as important as the relative change from previous models.

These estimates also only look at raw component costs and do not take into account other iPhone manufacturing expenses like research and development, software creation, advertising, and distribution, so this information, while interesting, is not an accurate measurement of Apple's profit margin for the iPhone 8 and the iPhone 8 Plus.

Yep, not even close.

At the same time, there's a reason why Apple has a quarter trillion dollars in pure profit sitting in offshore owned accounts. It's from their high profit margin, which is much higher for iPhones than other products such as iPads (which make about 30% gross):

Apple is generally assumed to make over 50% gross profit on iPhones. I've written up an analysis several times before, so I'll just summarize:

E.g. an iPhone sold for $640 wholesale yields about $340 gross profit after manufacturing, royalty and shipping costs. Of that, about $20 goes to R&D, $50 to support Apple employees and buildings and sales and ads, and $70 is put aside for future taxes in case the money is ever brought into the US... leaving a net profit of ~$200 per phone (about 30%). This is in line with what Blackberry used to make in their hey day.

You're totally free to come up with your own analysis, of course.

Back in 2015, Apple CEO Tim Cook said that cost breakdowns are generally "much different than the reality." "I've never seen one that is anywhere close to being accurate," he added.

Right, but he did not specify component cost breakdowns, as most people mistakenly think. He was speaking more generally. So he was not necessarily saying the BOM estimates are wrong.
 
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Henry Ford would strongly disagree with you. Look at how great the Model T worked out for him as he dropped prices from $850 down to $300. His passion was to get a Ford into every person's driveway which he did through a combination of manufacturing innovations and low prices for a good quality product. Was Ford concerned about profits? Not as his primary goal. He was the Steve Jobs of his time. Make a tremendous product that multitudes of people can buy and the profits will follow. Innovation, efficiency, and scale allow you to sell at a lower price and enable more people to purchase your product. This is a key trait of a person who is passionate about the product they are making.

This is unlike Tim Cook who is taking the John Scully approach to business and making revenue and profit the main focus. That is a fine application of the business mantra of "shareholder profit first" but it changes the view of the customer from the person who is supposed to get the utility out of your product to nothing more than an open wallet from whom the corporation tries to extract the most money.
Well phrased. And we should consider that equal margins imply massively more earnings (given all the new costly projects, adventures, lossy new business, immense buildings and salaries)
 
Of course not. You know Apple only provides revenue and sales figures for iPhone. But iPhone is the largest component of Apple’s business. If you think iPhone’s margins are higher what product do you think is dragging them back down to 38-39%?
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Microsoft’s profit margin last quarter was 27%. Apple’s was 19%.

You tell me, you are the one coming to conclusions based on limited data ;)
 
Cost goes up $18 so Apple sticks it to their faithful for an extra $50.

Came for the "we're getting screwed" takes. Was not disappointed. Take a supply chain management class then offer some insight into the margins on their products....There's a little more involved than just the cost of the components.
 
actual physical manufacturing costs are mostly irrelevant for overall costs of a device to make.

The question becomes more, how much % of profit are they actually making on each device one all costs are factored (Cost of business, not just manufacturing).

Apple historically makes about 35% profit on their devices (unless it's changed), so Apple's profits per device are probably close to $450 making $200-300 profit on each device.

they COULD have kept the price the same, heck they could still have lowered it to 599 and still been an insanely profitable device. but no, Apple raised prices. Got to appease wallstreet and those epic margin numbers.
 
Came for the "we're getting screwed" takes. Was not disappointed. Take a supply chain management class then offer some insight into the margins on their products....There's a little more involved than just the cost of the components.

Nearly a 10% rise in price.

:rolleyes:
 
...

Yep, not even close.

At the same time, there's a reason why Apple has a quarter trillion dollars in pure profit sitting in offshore owned accounts. It's from their high profit margin, which is much higher for iPhones than other products such as iPads (which make about 30% gross):

Apple is generally assumed to make over 50% gross profit on iPhones. I've written up an analysis several times before, so I'll just summarize:

E.g. an iPhone sold for $640 wholesale yields about $340 gross profit after manufacturing, royalty and shipping costs. Of that, about $20 goes to R&D, $50 to support Apple employees and buildings and sales and ads, and $70 is put aside for future taxes in case the money is ever brought into the US... leaving a net profit of ~$200 per phone (about 30%). This is in line with what Blackberry used to make in their hey day.

You're totally free to come up with your own analysis, of course.

...

I don't know whom it is that assumes Apple's gross profit on iPhones is over 50%, but they likely aren't correct. The math doesn't work.

If the aggregate gross margin on Apple's other product categories (i.e. iPad, Mac, and Other Products) is 30% as you suggest, then its gross margin on iPhones is around 42%. That's using numbers for FY 2016. For the first 9 months of FY 2017, it would be even lower. The actual gross margin for iPhones was likely a little higher than 42% in FY 2016, perhaps around 45%. But that's about as high as it could have been. If it was 45%, then the aggregate gross margin for those other product categories would have to have been around 20%. At 50% gross margin for iPhones, the gross margin for those other categories would have been in the single digits. And to be clear, that's not taking into account operating expenses (R&D and SG&A) or taxes. Also, we're talking about the aggregate gross margin for iPhones which includes the effects of higher margin models (e.g. Plus and high storage models) pulling the average up.

If we attribute all of Apple's post-tax profit for FY 2016 to iPhones - if we assume that, in effect, Apple didn't make money on anything else - then that works out to about $216 per iPhone sold.

The $70 estimate is also too high. Apple, of course, effectively pays taxes in the United States on the profits from iPhones sold in the Americas. But even looking only at iPhones sold outside of the Americas, the deferred taxes it accounted for in FY 2016 would amount to around $40 per iPhone. And that doesn't allocate any of those deferred taxes to the profits which effectively come from other products and services. If we look at the situation in prior years, Apple's deferred taxes were considerably less.
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actual physical manufacturing costs are mostly irrelevant for overall costs of a device to make.

The question becomes more, how much % of profit are they actually making on each device one all costs are factored (Cost of business, not just manufacturing).

Apple historically makes about 35% profit on their devices (unless it's changed), so Apple's profits per device are probably close to $450 making $200-300 profit on each device.

they COULD have kept the price the same, heck they could still have lowered it to 599 and still been an insanely profitable device. but no, Apple raised prices. Got to appease wallstreet and those epic margin numbers.

Before or after taxes? After taxes Apple probably makes, in effect, around $150 on average per iPhone. Obviously on some models it would make more than that and on some it would make less. There would also be variation based on, e.g., where they were sold and whether they were sold through direct channels or through third parties.
 
...The actual gross margin for iPhones was likely a little higher than 42% in FY 2016, perhaps around 45%. But that's about as high as it could have been.

Yes, thanks, that makes sense. My figures date from 2014 when the iPhone 6 came out. It's widely assumed that margins have gone down since then, if for no other reason than the fact that more of the less expensive models are being sold.

If we attribute all of Apple's post-tax profit for FY 2016 to iPhones - if we assume that, in effect, Apple didn't make money on anything else - then that works out to about $216 per iPhone sold.

Yes, if we assumed every phone was a top of line model. But they're not these days.

The $70 estimate is also too high. Apple, of course, effectively pays taxes in the United States on the profits from iPhones sold in the Americas. But even looking only at iPhones sold outside of the Americas, the deferred taxes it accounted for in FY 2016 would amount to around $40 per iPhone.

Yeah, that one was a quick and high estimate. Your number actually gives a higher net profit.

After taxes Apple probably makes, in effect, around $150 on average per iPhone. Obviously on some models it would make more than that and on some it would make less. There would also be variation based on, e.g., where they were sold and whether they were sold through direct channels or through third parties.

I was thinking $180-200 for each flagship phone, but an average of $150 for all models combined makes sense.

A flagship like the X with additional (high profit) storage should easily net $200, wouldn't you think?
 
Henry Ford would strongly disagree with you. Look at how great the Model T worked out for him as he dropped prices from $850 down to $300. His passion was to get a Ford into every person's driveway which he did through a combination of manufacturing innovations and low prices for a good quality product. Was Ford concerned about profits? Not as his primary goal. He was the Steve Jobs of his time. Make a tremendous product that multitudes of people can buy and the profits will follow. Innovation, efficiency, and scale allow you to sell at a lower price and enable more people to purchase your product. This is a key trait of a person who is passionate about the product they are making.

This is unlike Tim Cook who is taking the John Scully approach to business and making revenue and profit the main focus. That is a fine application of the business mantra of "shareholder profit first" but it changes the view of the customer from the person who is supposed to get the utility out of your product to nothing more than an open wallet from whom the corporation tries to extract the most money.

If Henry Ford was running Apple, or any leading cell phone company, we would still have the equivalent of the motorola flip phone, albeit at a much cheaper price.

Ford's true legacy of innovation is limited to assembly line production efficiencies...throughout the 20 plus year production life span of the model T the price was constantly reduced but the first Model T produced and the last one sold were essentially the identical car....like Blackberry 100 years later Ford failed to see, after democratizing the car industry, that the public's taste's had changed and they preferred innovation in the product, not the means of its production, more.

If you don't reinvest in your product and innovate (and charge enough in the process to be able to do that) you too will go the way of the dinosaur, Model T and Blackberry.

http://www.wiley.com/legacy/products/subject/business/forbes/ford.html
 
Wow, so many experts in Apple’s financial situation and internal cost structure. I’m surprised a lot of you guys aren’t asked for interviews for the various financial magazines and shows.

So much faux outrage here it’s amusing. There’s an old phrase I heard long ago: What do you call a 20 year old liberal? A 40 year old conservative. That is, it’s easy to be so idealistic when you’re young but once you’ve been in the real world for a while you realize it isn’t all daisies and altruism.
Well I am a working Senior Engineer with a degree in Finance.
 
Well I am a working Senior Engineer with a degree in Finance.
Sounds nice but what relevance is it? Unless you’re in day to day business operations a degree doesn’t really mean much. It just says you are familiar with business school terms.
 
Well I am a working Senior Engineer with a degree in Finance.

I'm owner of an international electronic goods manufacturing company. :D Seems we're not all completely naive.

The costs are underestimated for sure - but electronics rarely have decent margin, usually anywhere from 5 to 20% for volume goods and it would seem Apple are at the upper end of the profit spectrum on that. They're not ripping us off but they're hardly being generous either, and they seriously lack innovation of late with stale designs and little particularly new or exciting compared to their competition. Seems they may have plateaued.
 
Yes, thanks, that makes sense. My figures date from 2014 when the iPhone 6 came out. It's widely assumed that margins have gone down since then, if for no other reason than the fact that more of the less expensive models are being sold.

Yeah, for FY 2014 (which was the iPhone 5S cycle) iPhone gross margins could have been near 50%. Above 50% still makes it hard for the math to work. My best guess would be around 48-49%.

With the iPhone 6 cycle (FY 2015) iPhone gross margins likely came down a little. At 50% the math doesn't really work unless we believe that the aggregate gross margin on Apple's other products was 15% or lower. Gross margins for the iPhone were still, likely, above what they are now. Of course, that cycle saw very good volume and thus great profitability for Apple. Apple's overall gross margins also increased a little as, among other possible reasons, iPhones accounted for a bigger piece of its total revenue.

Yes, if we assumed every phone was a top of line model. But they're not these days.

That's not assuming that every phone was a top of line model. It's what the average for all iPhones would have been if we attributed all of Apple's profit to iPhones. Some models - e.g., large storage Plus models - would represent more effective profit per unit.

Yeah, that one was a quick and high estimate. Your number actually gives a higher net profit.



I was thinking $180-200 for each flagship phone, but an average of $150 for all models combined makes sense.

A flagship like the X with additional (high profit) storage should easily net $200, wouldn't you think?

I would think that the effective profit from each large storage iPhone X would be considerably more than $200. I'd expect the number for even the iPhone 8 Plus models - especially the 256 GB - would be more than $200.

The same might not be the case for the base iPhone 8 though. I think that the new base model iPhone is typically near the average for iPhones (or, if anything, below that average) when it comes to gross margins as it doesn't have the benefit of the higher margin storage upgrade or the benefit of the (likely) higher margin Plus upgrade, but does have the gross margin headwind of being a new model. When new iPhone models are introduced, there's typically a negative effect on gross margins from that introduction which is offset by a better product mix and more volume leverage. The ASP for the new base model is also typically below the ASP for iPhones overall. That said, with the increased price of the base model this time, it wouldn't surprise me if the average effective profit per unit were above $150.
 
Even though the new iPhones cost more, I think the profit margins are slightly smaller than previous iPhones.
 
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