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I have never seen a pre-paid minutes sim card for cell service offered for sale. I am not saying that it doesn't exist elsewhere but I haven't experienced this in my area.

I was wondering if you had actually had first hand experience at buying a pre-paid cell minutes sim card with Cingular because we do now have Cingular service here.

Judging by this comment:

manu chao said:
If the US providers are really such a******s...

I believe Manu is not in North America and probably doesn't realize that prepaid cards here come with a phone locked to the provider.

I am not aware of any place I can walk into a store and buy an unlocked phone. They don't exist. Since unlocked phones don't exist, nobody sells "just" a sim card, since there aren't any phones that can use it.

The eBay economy of unlocked phones is simply not large enough to support the sale of naked sim cards.
 
Duh.

I purchased an unlocked Sony Ericsson Z600 from Germany several years ago. I walked into the T-Mobile store at the local mall, and got a SIM card in about five minutes. No hassles. Everyone in the store -including the trainee who was helping me- knew what it was and how to set up the service. No one there had ever seen the Z600 before, and they thought it was really cool. But there was no suggestion that the phone wouldn't work, or that I couldn't get service without a T-Mobile-branded phone. Their tech support people even helped me configure the phone for email/internet access, even though it wasn't "officially" supported.

I don't know why so many here are crying doom and despair at the thought of US customers buying an unlocked phone and then getting service. It was totally easy, even four years ago! And this is from someone who had never even <heard> of a SIM card before then.
 
I think it could cause a lot of confusion for consumers who don't care to know about the details of cell phone service.

"I want this phone".
"That'll be $300."
"ok, how many weekend minutes do I get?"
"Oh, this is just the phone, you have to pick a cell phone carrier somewhere else and tell them you want a SIM card for your unlocked phone. If the sales person doesn't know what you are talking about, ask to speak to customer service, they'll know how to get it done."

Depending on the dynamics w/ cell carries, I suppose Apple could bundle service with sale of the phone, letting the customer decide at the time of buying.

arn

You are correct, of course, the model is different, so average Joe consumer will be confused. But the model is also better (IMHO). Apple can sell the idea that you no longer need to buy plans for 2 years or more, you can simply buy a monthly plan and switch as you need. Your iPod+Phone will switch carriers with you, as will your phone number and no, you won't lose any of your songs.

Once people get clued in that their phone never was really free, I think you'll see a lot of people wondering why it was the other way for so long.
 
Judging by this comment:



I believe Manu is not in North America and probably doesn't realize that prepaid cards here come with a phone locked to the provider.

I am not aware of any place I can walk into a store and buy an unlocked phone. They don't exist. Since unlocked phones don't exist, nobody sells "just" a sim card, since there aren't any phones that can use it.

The eBay economy of unlocked phones is simply not large enough to support the sale of naked sim cards.


Thanks, that is what I was wondering because I have never seen an unlocked phone or a pre-paid SIM card for sale here in my town.

I guess the Europeans take it for granted that everyone is familiar with this because it is so readily available in their country.

So if Apple did sell an unlocked phone would they then market SIM cards as well or provide a way to re-charge your minutes via the internet. Also would the pre-paid minutes include other services such as text messaging, email, or unlimited nights and weeked minutes. Or would those services be unavailable without a contract provider.
 
Judging by this comment:

I believe Manu is not in North America and probably doesn't realize that prepaid cards here come with a phone locked to the provider.

I am not aware of any place I can walk into a store and buy an unlocked phone. They don't exist. Since unlocked phones don't exist, nobody sells "just" a sim card, since there aren't any phones that can use it.

The eBay economy of unlocked phones is simply not large enough to support the sale of naked sim cards.

ehm, I have a prepaid SIM Card from T-Mobile and I got it without buying any phone.
 
ehm, I have a prepaid SIM Card from T-Mobile and I got it without buying any phone.

Okay, then I am wrong -- but I[m pretty sure here, Rogers, Telus, Bell, Virgin (only prepaid) don't sell naked cards.

I just want to be clear -- I'm not saying this can't/shouldn't/won't happen. I would love to see it happen, and am really hoping. I'm just pointing out that the hurdle to overcome is educating the APOTS. With any luck this will start a trend and we'll finally get choice on our cell phones!

Heck, I'd just be happy with being able to take my phone number with me when I switch cellular providers!

[Edit -- oops, of course Bell & Telus don't, its pretty hard to fit a sim card into a CDMA phone!]
 
I don't know about Cingular, I just happen to choose T-Mobile when I moved here (Boston). Also I don't know if you are aware of this, but you can get you locked phone unlocked after 6months. You just need to call the customer service and ask them to unlock you phone.
 
Heck, I'd just be happy with being able to take my phone number with me when I switch cellular providers!
Shouldn't it be the job of the antitrust authorities to mandate the phone companies to allow the transfer of a phone number from one provider to another?
 
Why is everyone so sure an iphone is in development? Apple has not confirmed this in any concrete way! All this is doing is creating a (dangerous) bubble in their stock!

JM

Apple during one of their recent conference calls with analysts to discuss quarterly results, essentially admited that they are working on an iPhone. Its definite that they've been working on one. I guess its still possible they decide not to release it, but working on one is pretty definite.
 
My problem is this- I am on a monthly contract at the moment which guarantees me a new phone every year. The money I would be saving up for an iPhone unfortunately goes on paying my current monthly bill, so why should I as a consumer have to adapt to the suggested system whereby I purchase the phone separately. In the UK to buy an unlocked phone it could cost up to £250 or I could get the same phone on monthly contract for free on a £25/month plan, so unless I can get the same call plan as I have at the moment for £50 per year there really is no benefit for me.

This just seems like aggressive tactics by Apple to make more money. And I thought M$ were bad- at least you can get the awful Windoze mobile on free phones.
 
unlocked phones would cause confusion? How? It's a pretty simple concept to me. Buying chunks of airtime seems to be the big hurdle. Who would provide support for problems other than with hardware?

It must be confusing, since you had questions :)

Basically you would/could sign up with Cingular or T-Mobile. Instead if using their free or discount handset, you use the iPhone and stick a tiny little card into the phone. This card contains all the info for using the phone with the carrier. It also includes all your contacts that you may have saved from another phone.
 
I don't know about Cingular, I just happen to choose T-Mobile when I moved here (Boston). Also I don't know if you are aware of this, but you can get you locked phone unlocked after 6months. You just need to call the customer service and ask them to unlock you phone.

Thanks for the info but to be honest none of this really matters much to me. I can't even get cell phone service from any provider at my house. It only works when I travel into town (about 30 miles). So phones really are not that interesting to me.

I am more interested in Apple's computers. I have worked with almost every type of computer out there since 1974 and I can't get enough of these stupid macs, OS X, and other software.

I am just bored waiting for MWSF 2007, and a little pissed that MacRumors doesn't have a little more news on upcoming computers.
 
I actually like the U.S. model because a phone can only be used when it has service, so there is nothing wrong with getting a heavily reduced price on a phone and tying it with a service which would be required for use anyway.

I am open to change if it works well, but there is nothing wrong with the current model.

The idea of the model is you pay a higher monthly fee to cover the price of the phone over your contract period. When your contract is over, however, you continue paying that higher fee even if you don't get a new phone. In this way they pretty much force you to get a new phone every 2 years. People are less likely to invest in a premium phone with a premium price if after 2 years they're forced to do it again or pay for someone else's phone.

It would be nice to have the option of buying a phone outright for a smaller service fee. But that option isn't available, so you'd be stupid not to get the free phone.

So the customers get the short end of the stick without even knowing it.
 
The people around me also don't want to take apart a phone they spent $300+ on to stick a SIM card in it, for fear they'll "break" something in the process, no matter how easy it really is.

They're really that scared of removing the battery?

Wierd.

I've owned something in the order of 10+ unlocked GSM phones. Despite being an avid phone geek who routinely swaps the SIMs around, I've never had to do anything approximating to "taking apart a phone" - removing battery excepted - to switch them. (Ok, the Motorola V66 requires you remove a panel on the front of the phone, and the Nokia 2190 - which doesn't work with modern SIMs - has an additional panel you have to remove, a panel clearly meant to be removed. And, of course, there's my good old Motorola Graphite, my first, which didn't require the removal of anything. It used full size SIM cards, which you slid in a slot, and slid a button to eject.)

If you're not frightened of removing a CD from a portable CD player, it's hard to believe you'll be frightened of changing a SIM card in a mobile phone.
 
In my home country, Portugal (one of the european countries with the most mobile phones per capita ratio - go figure! :rolleyes: ), all three physical networks use GSM/3G and SIM cards... Most mobile phones are locked and subsidized, even those with pre-paid plans (which are rechargeable only at ATMs, at the service provider's stores, via the internet or the phone itself), and didn't suffer all that crippling business up until some 2 years ago, and the rebranding atrocity (of "regular", big-brand phones like Nokia, Motorola and Siemens) up until a few months ago... Still, it doesn't seem they are as crippled as those you describe here (I'm not sure about bluetooth, though... And they don't usually come with USB cables included anyway).

Some people buy unlocked phones from electronics and mobile phone stores (or, in my case, directly from a Nokia store, which is a rare thing there), but most buy them locked directly from the service provider's stores (much more common) or just about everywhere (supermarkerts even!). Also, SIM cards are preety cheap and easy to get hold of, and in some cases, free. There are these "upgrade" plans, under which you buy a new phone, with a new SIM card for free, and get credit for your old number, so you can keep that and give your old phone away or resell it.

Most of these people use prepaid plans, but there are also 1-2 year contracts, especially for high-end phones. On the low end, some are fully subsidized, and as they progress further up towards the high-end, they get more expensive (but always cheaper than the unlocked versions, of course). Also, interestingly, some people buy the locked versions (mostly lower-end phones, as you have to pay cancelation fees for contracts just like there in the US) and use their prepaid cards until they run out of money (or keep using it but get extra SIM cards from other networks), and then unlock their phones, either legally through their service providers for a fee (can't remember how much, but it's not usually more than €50) or illegally on the "black market" or by themselves... Even if you don't use other SIM cards regularly, it's always nice and useful for an emergency (not the 911-kind of emergency, that is... Fortunately you can dial 112, the european 911, even without a SIM card inserted).

As of now, there are three networks and one MVNO piggybacking on one of them, TMN, the most popular one (not even Vodafone PT overshadows them, TMN has some 5 million customers, on a country that only counts 10 million heads; that IS telling :rolleyes: ). And since two years ago, number portability was finally enabled, enforced by law to ease competition between the service providers... That creates some confusion, as the first two numbers don't necessarily always identify the network to which a number belongs as before (also, that MVNO also uses the same first two numbers as the main physical network's), but "yay!", nonetheless.

Here in Spain, where I'm staying until March, things work preety much in the same way (ironically, AFAIK, locked Vodafone PT, ES and FR phones and SIM cards are not interoperable... go figure!). The only difference is that there are more MVNOs, it seems, and you can charge your SIM card preety much everywhere: supermarkets, phone booths, web-cafés, grocery stores, ATMs, etc. All I had to do, with my brand new Nokia 1101 (bought it already unblocked, it's the first "free" phone I've ever had and I'm not looking back, as even if I don't plan on switching networks, I enjoy the fact that I can if I want to - it's a bit like Boot Camp for long-time Windows users :p ), was buying a spanish Telefonica SIM card and putting it in. No questions asked (of course, I activated some services in a store, but nothing very technical as my phone has a B&W screen and mono-ringtones... but it does have a LED flashlight, probably the most useful feature I've ever had in a phone, honestly! :cool: ). Same thing for my brother, except in his case, it was a dutch T-Mobile SIM card...

I really don't get it, but it's funny to think that in Europe, with 15+ countries in the European Union, all speaking different languages and whatnot, there's more interoperability between networks as they are all based on GSM/3G and soon on UMTS, than in the US, with all that CDMA/GSM confusion... I know each has its own merits, and that the area of Europe is much smaller than that of the US, but all I know is that the coverage in my country is superb (~95% of the territory, and that includes near-deserted areas where you may find small villages here and there), and not too shabby on the rest of Europe either. You're damn rich, how hard is it to fit decent *standard* networks on the US? :p (not that CDMA is not a standard, or a bad one at that, but you could standardize - as in "choose one standard and go with it" - your celular networks, right? EVEN if it was an very expensive task, it would eventually bring benefits to consumers, I reckon... Can't your government defend consumers and promote competition at the same time?).

And while on the subject of competition, as for the whole locking in thing, what's happening in your country is an absolutely disgraceful situation. Aren't you supposed to be heralding all those liberal principles of free - and fair - competition? I mean, Microsoft has this whole "Windows-OEM tax"+Office scheme going on, but they were never quite able to force PC manufacturers to prevent people - they only manage to dissuade them, apart from crushing their competitors - from using alternative applications and OSes (though I have no doubts they would just love to be able to... TPM may just be the first step in that direction :eek: )... If you look at it by this angle, suddenly the PC market looks more "fair" and "open", and the recent Mac marketshare gains are proof of that. Heck, even Apple allows you to use Windows on the Mac. Double heck, iTunes+iPod may be a closed system, but there's nothing to prevent you to use other sources or music for your iPod, or using other players with your Mac via drag'n'drop (I know, Fairplay files won't work, but still).

There's this inherently evil quality about mobile phone service providers that neither Microsoft nor Apple (or IBM, or Adobe, or *gasp* RIAA for that matter, or [insert your favorite multi-billion-dollar goddamn greedy corporation] have ever been able to achieve, which is preety damn impressive (and sad) by itself! It seems, also, that the mobile phone manufacturers may love this business model themselves after all, as it forces people to buy new phones every two years... Which is a total dumb-a**ery, as here in Europe people keep buying new phones every 1-2 years anyway, EVEN without contracts. And just look at iPod sales: a ton of them go to people who are replacing 2-3-year-old iPods, that's for sure (there's no way in the world they could grow that fast based on new users alone)... Most of them must know all that, since they compete both in Europe and in the US, so it's not like the manufacturers have something to lose, really...

I sure hope Apple can tame them all like they did with the record companies and the RIAA, and Creative, Sony, etc. IMHO, if there's one company which can make it, it's them... But their iPod phone is in a "worse-than-Zune" situation now (nevermind the quality of the hardware, as it alone won't make it a success... the iPod had an almost virgin, expanding market all to itself, whereas the Mac faced a lot of hurdles throughout its history, and with this iPhone gizmo it may not be different), it seems... :eek:

Good luck, Steve! ;)
 
I
Where are you going to buy the service from? So I buy a phone and go to Verizon... but wait, they don't offer SIM cards/GSM network.

It's simple. You advertise it as working with any GSM network, and then let the operators actually fill in the blanks.

Do you think Cingular and T-Mobile are going to turn down customers, avoiding mentioning that *cough* ahem, we are a GSM network, if you'd just like to buy this SIM card and give us lots of money every month?

Car manufacturers don't seem to worry about customers being terribly confused about having to fill their vehicles up with gasoline or diesel, depending on make. Software makers don't seem to worry terribly about customers finding it hard to tell if their computer runs Windows or not. The notion that saying "Any GSM network" is going to frughten and confuse Americans is a little overblown, to put it mildly.
 
I'm sorry, but I don't see how it would benefit consumers to now have to pay for the actual phone when you can get it for free.

Because you don't get it for free. You instead are given a crippled version, that cost the operator the same amount of money (if not more, given the work needed in development to cripple it) as if it wasn't crippled, which the operator must claw back some somewhere.

Where do you think they get it? Government grants? The toothfairy? From special trees with money as leaves?

The two models are:

1. You get your phone for no money up front. The operator rolls the cost of the phone into the prices it charges. It also has to deal with the risk people will not use their service long enough to cover the costs, so the phones are crippled, and the customers are forced to sign absurdly long contracts. (THREE YEARS in some cases. THREE! What the hell are people thinking?) The available phones are limited to those the operator is willing to subsidize. Other phones are harder and more expensive to get, and those who buy them still end up paying for the subsidies given to others.

2. You pay full price for your phone. You get the phone. The actual phone. The phone as envisaged by its designer. You sign on to a mobile operator. The mobile operator has no compelling reason to force you to sign a long contract. The mobile operator does not have artificially high prices that reflect the fact it's having to pay you for phones. You have a choice of every phone ever made compatible with your network.

Those are the choices. Quite honestly, I'd rather the operators abolish "subsidies" and offer outright loans (they run credit checks on you anyway.) You'll get more choices, cheaper phone services, and better phones as a result. There is no downside.
 
Not that confusing

Some here are making this much more difficult than it really needs to be. Apple can set this up many ways. Apple can bundle carrier service with phones upon sale. Carriers can offer apple phones. The numbers all work out the same, it's just moving obligations around. Can still get into the phone for very little (carrier pays apple), with ability for you to leave at any time with phone by paying off remaining "balance" on that phone (say, months left/24). Next carrier can "refinance". Since you always need a carrier, it's all just phone financing. This is really fairly obvious since a phone without a service is worthless. As many have pointed out, there is no free lunch. You pay for that free phone. Carriers use phones to attract customers, but would be more than happy to just sell service and not have to screw around with the phone thing. We have several cell phones, 2 of which are prepaid, because area has pockets of coverage, and one for pure emergency/minimal use in such a pocket. Minimal use phone is a $25 T-Mobile. At same time bought 1000 T-Mobile minutes which included a free Nokia phone. Unlocked it. Bought a minimal prepaid Cingular plan/sim card. Cingular was more than happy to sell the plan. The whole process was a mild pain in the ass, but we really needed that kind of set-up. Apple could easily simplify the whole process, which is really what Apple does best.
 
I really hope that becuase the iPhone rumors are becoming more frequent that it is going to come out very soon and that is not just a bunch of hype.
 
1. You get your phone for no money up front. The operator rolls the cost of the phone into the prices it charges. It also has to deal with the risk people will not use their service long enough to cover the costs, so the phones are crippled, and the customers are forced to sign absurdly long contracts. (THREE YEARS in some cases. THREE! What the hell are people thinking?) The available phones are limited to those the operator is willing to subsidize. Other phones are harder and more expensive to get, and those who buy them still end up paying for the subsidies given to others.

2. You pay full price for your phone. You get the phone. The actual phone. The phone as envisaged by its designer. You sign on to a mobile operator. The mobile operator has no compelling reason to force you to sign a long contract. The mobile operator does not have artificially high prices that reflect the fact it's having to pay you for phones. You have a choice of every phone ever made compatible with your network.

Those are the choices. Quite honestly, I'd rather the operators abolish "subsidies" and offer outright loans (they run credit checks on you anyway.) You'll get more choices, cheaper phone services, and better phones as a result. There is no downside.


well, the operators don't care about consumer choices, cheaper prices or better phones, they want more profit.

Model 1 is the model that benefits the carriers the most. They control what goes in their network. They operator WANTS you to sign a very long contract because then they can show investors in Wall Street nice projections of their revenue in the future years. There is no incentive at all to change their business model unless by some miracle the goverment forces them to change it.

This is why I dont see at all any kind of massive adoption of an apple phone. None of the carriers want to give up control of their network. Do you really think they would allow access to an Itunes wireless store competing with verizon's vcast or cingular's music store? noway!.
At most it will be a niche expensive phone like others made by nokia etc, sold only in their website.
 
At most it will be a niche expensive phone like others made by nokia etc, sold only in their website.


That sounds like the kind of thing which was said about the personal computer, the automobile and the television.
 
Okay, then I am wrong -- but I[m pretty sure here, Rogers, Telus, Bell, Virgin (only prepaid) don't sell naked cards.

[Edit -- oops, of course Bell & Telus don't, its pretty hard to fit a sim card into a CDMA phone!]

Rogers sells SIM cards. I bought a Cingular-branded, but unlocked, Moto V3 on eBay and took it to a Rogers video store and I was able to buy a SIM card, insert it, and activate it, before leaving the store. The SIM card cost me $35. They didn't seem to be confused as to what to do. It was also the first V3 that they saw. Rogers got their V3s about 3 months later.
 
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