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TouchMint.com

macrumors 68000
May 25, 2012
1,625
318
Phoenix
It's pretty clear that ios is losing ground in most of these countries. I wonder why maybe lack of change? Maybe a larger phone will help? I assume Latin Americas android growth is from cheaper android phones.

I am really pumped for win phone and can't wait to see that growth carry over here in the us!
 

alohamade

macrumors regular
Sep 13, 2012
143
13
The original decision to say "holds strong" in the title came from the report:

Apple has lost share in most countries compared with this time last year, but importantly it has held strong shares in key markets including 43.9% in USA, 29.9% in Great Britain and 19.0% in China.

But, after seeing the responses in this thread, I understand the logic that comes with seeing negative marks in the statistics. I've updated the title of the article to reflect that. Thanks everyone.
 

GroundLoop

macrumors 68000
Mar 21, 2003
1,583
62
To any business success lies in profit not market share. As long as they maintain high profitability nobody should be worried about their future.

Once a market hits saturation, like smartphones are about to, there is always downward pressure on margins. Apple will need to come up with some innovative, must-have features at least every other year to keep margins at current levels. Concentrating on the high-end customer will result in a market share approaching their computer market share. That is still more than enough to survive, but Apple is steadily losing ground.
 

bbeagle

macrumors 68040
Oct 19, 2010
3,541
2,981
Buffalo, NY
Thanks for showing that you made up the claim and that continuing the conversation with you would be a waste of time. When you can pout a single proof that Android steals information, write it, until then, have a nice day

Living in denial about Android's faults... I see.
 

iSRS

macrumors 6502
Mar 2, 2010
468
291
What did you expect from an Apple-centric website. I love the Apple products that I do own (laptop and multiple iPads), but Apple really needs to get with the times on the iPhone. The software is decent, but it is too small for me (being 6'5" I have really large hands). If there is a larger iPhone on the horizon, then I could be convinced to move away from my 5" Android phone.


Seems like a larger screen iPhone is coming, but I disagree that this is the cause for market share.

Example: I recently read about how great large screen phones like the Note line are. They have, "impressively", sold 30 million since they launched in 2011.

Meanwhile, the iPhone is estimated to have sold 55 million in the most recent quarter.

So it isn't holding the iPhone back.
 

70s technology

macrumors newbie
Nov 8, 2013
14
4
London
Living in denial about Android's faults... I see.

You're both being inflammatory instead of trying to have a productive conversation. He asked for citations and you provided plenty, but he's got a point: the citations you provided are for Google's transgressions and don't provide any evidence of Android itself being involved in stealing data.

A more constructive approach might be to get you to rephrase your point to be clearer about the distinction: you obviously don't want to trust your data to an OS written and controlled by a company with a history of transgressions when it comes to personal data and privacy, presumably because of their main business model. I personally can see the logic there but more importantly this way you're not making any unsustainable accusations.
 

Teste

macrumors 6502
Jan 8, 2011
353
5
But, after seeing the responses in this thread, I understand the logic that comes with seeing negative marks in the statistics. I've updated the title of the article to reflect that. Thanks everyone.

Thank you, it's much better now!
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,137
31,192
This is why Marketshare alone is misleading. If you strictly look at the percents it looks like they are bleeding customers but rather the bottom end of the market is growing at a much higher pace than the top end that has been around for longer.

As the market grows from the bottom Apple's share numbers will slide massively, 2014 will likely be the complete death of non-smartphones, you can hardly find them anywhere anyways as they are getting replaced with "Androids" all of which are labeled as "Smartphones" but many of which cannot even install the Google Play store due to cheap hardware.

I'm not saying that they are not Androids, it's just not representative to what people read out of these statistics.

Apple has absolutely zero desire to go into the low end marketshare, their 30 year history clearly demonstrates they have no desire to ever compete on razor thin margins.

To any business success lies in profit not market share. As long as they maintain high profitability nobody should be worried about their future.
When was Apple ever a leader in the mobile phone market? So people that were using dumb phones or feature phones are now buying low-end smart phones. Until someone can show how selling cheap hardware is a profitable business you won't see Apple there. What company besides Samsung is making decent money in the smartphone business? Certainly not Nokia or Motorola. This quarter LG reported a loss in their smartphone division. HTC is struggling. Moody's just downgraded Sony's credit rating to junk. I'll worry about Apple if they decide to start competing in a race to the bottom. Because that's one they can never win.
 

Zwopple

macrumors regular
Dec 27, 2008
125
2,024
Once a market hits saturation, like smartphones are about to, there is always downward pressure on margins. Apple will need to come up with some innovative, must-have features at least every other year to keep margins at current levels. Concentrating on the high-end customer will result in a market share approaching their computer market share. That is still more than enough to survive, but Apple is steadily losing ground.

I don't really view that as an issue. Apple is the most profitable PC maker now even with their minute market share. The "mobile" market is much larger and even if it declines to a 5-10% marketshare they will steal reap the massive benefits of the high margins.

Apple will see decline as soon as they stop making products that people want, or someone else makes products people want more. Thus far that hasn't happened.
 

Random Chaos

macrumors member
Jan 16, 2008
92
0
What is the source for these numbers? What companies besides Apple routinely
provide sales figures? I don't put a lot of stock in these numbers (whichever firm reports them and whether they're good or bad for Apple) because there's no way to validate them and often times prior quarters numbers will be restated with no real explanation at all. It will be interesting to see how these figures compare to Apple's when they announce quarterly results this afternoon.

I have regularly seen reports from two different "market research" firms that have drastically different results for the same month/quarter. Something missing in this article is who commissioned the report - I've never heard of Kantar before - is this a report they are doing for general consumption or were they commissioned by a company pro-some-group (such as a rival phone manufacturer)?
 

uknowimright

macrumors 6502a
Dec 30, 2011
812
416
had the numbers been more in Apple's favor, I doubt we would be seeing posts questioning the credibility of the source
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
You're both being inflammatory instead of trying to have a productive conversation. He asked for citations and you provided plenty, but he's got a point: the citations you provided are for Google's transgressions and don't provide any evidence of Android itself being involved in stealing data.

A more constructive approach might be to get you to rephrase your point to be clearer about the distinction: you obviously don't want to trust your data to an OS written and controlled by a company with a history of transgressions when it comes to personal data and privacy, presumably because of their main business model. I personally can see the logic there but more importantly this way you're not making any unsustainable accusations.

Exactly this, thanks
 

Merode

macrumors 6502a
Nov 5, 2013
623
617
Warsaw, Poland
It's just about price.

In Poland WP is very strong percentage-wise. The survey reveals that almost all these devices are low to mid end. They are cheap, they are popular. Although they don't generate a lot of internet traffic as people who utilize smartphones more prefer Android or iOS.

Now, if I wanted a really nice smartphone and I had money, I'd go (and went) for iPhone because I like it a lot, it's smooth and beautiful. On the other hand (and this is what I often hear from friends) people really enjoy large screens. I personally don't like large smartphones, but for this group Apple has nothing to offer.

By the way, my business phone is Lumia, because I work for a little company. Except for my boss we all have Androids and Lumias because they are cheap. I guess we're no exception.


TL;DR Apple produces premium products and not everybody has to drive Mercedes. I guess Opel and VW own Mercedes in marketshare.
 

Menneisyys2

macrumors 603
Jun 7, 2011
5,997
1,101
Look, I am a much of an Apple loyalist as they come, but hard to see the correlation between "Holds Strong" and losses in every country.

What I would like to know, what is going on with Windows phone in Europe? Nice job MS!

Nokia is a European company; this is one of the reasons it sells better in Europe, particularly in Finland.
 

70s technology

macrumors newbie
Nov 8, 2013
14
4
London
Seems like a larger screen iPhone is coming, but I disagree that this is the cause for market share.

Example: I recently read about how great large screen phones like the Note line are. They have, "impressively", sold 30 million since they launched in 2011.

Meanwhile, the iPhone is estimated to have sold 55 million in the most recent quarter.

So it isn't holding the iPhone back.

I agree and for a long time was annoyed with the logic that Apple "needed" to sell a larger phone just to compete, particularly when it seemed to me that Android phones only ended up so large in the first place so as to be able to provide similar performance and battery life to iPhones (given Android's traditionally much poorer performance-per-watt).

That said, I've changed my mind and do think the market has matured to the point where Apple could offer multiple sizes of iPhone much like they do with most of their product categories. iOS 7's changes around size independence strongly hint at this as well.

Combine that with the fact that larger phones are very strong sellers in Asia - the biggest future market and the fastest growing, I believe - and there are some compelling arguments for a larger iPhone (there are cultural factors in parts of Asia that might contribute to this, such as the fact that both men and women carry purses/bags).
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
That said, I've changed my mind and do think the market has matured to the point where Apple could offer multiple sizes of iPhone much like they do with most of their product categories. iOS 7's changes around size independence strongly hint at this as well.

They could do like they are doing with the iPad line, two sizes. Ditch the 3.5" screen and make one line with 4.5"-5"
 

iSRS

macrumors 6502
Mar 2, 2010
468
291
I agree and for a long time was annoyed with the logic that Apple "needed" to sell a larger phone just to compete, particularly when it seemed to me that Android phones only ended up so large in the first place so as to be able to provide similar performance and battery life to iPhones (given Android's traditionally much poorer performance-per-watt).



That said, I've changed my mind and do think the market has matured to the point where Apple could offer multiple sizes of iPhone much like they do with most of their product categories. iOS 7's changes around size independence strongly hint at this as well.



Combine that with the fact that larger phones are very strong sellers in Asia - the biggest future market and the fastest growing, I believe - and there are some compelling arguments for a larger iPhone (there are cultural factors in parts of Asia that might contribute to this, such as the fact that both men and women carry purses/bags).


On board 100% with you. I think this is the time for Apple to release a larger (still <5", though) iPhone. I will be in line to get it, as well.

It's just the philosophy of Apple vs the others. The others design and release and hope the quality and software catch up. Apple releases when the quality is there.
 

GroundLoop

macrumors 68000
Mar 21, 2003
1,583
62
Seems like a larger screen iPhone is coming, but I disagree that this is the cause for market share.

Example: I recently read about how great large screen phones like the Note line are. They have, "impressively", sold 30 million since they launched in 2011.

Meanwhile, the iPhone is estimated to have sold 55 million in the most recent quarter.

So it isn't holding the iPhone back.

I didn't say that size was the general/only reason for its market share decline, but it is the reason that I will not consider an iPhone. The issue with the iPhone is that, like all Apple products, options are limited and expensive. Apple led the smartphone revolution when the iPhone was introduced and especially when the appstore opened, but since then the iPhone has not changed much. Android hasn't changed much on the software side either (routine new features and performance enhancements). The advantage that Android has is with the number of hardware options available for the individual markets (low-end market, camera phone market, etc). Apple likes to concentrate at the top for profitability sake, but that will lead to OSX-like marketshares. I believe Apple will be happy with that as long as they can maintain the current level of app developer support.
 
Last edited:

mozumder

macrumors 65816
Mar 9, 2009
1,285
4,416
This is why Marketshare alone is misleading. If you strictly look at the percents it looks like they are bleeding customers but rather the bottom end of the market is growing at a much higher pace than the top end that has been around for longer.

As the market grows from the bottom Apple's share numbers will slide massively, 2014 will likely be the complete death of non-smartphones, you can hardly find them anywhere anyways as they are getting replaced with "Androids" all of which are labeled as "Smartphones" but many of which cannot even install the Google Play store due to cheap hardware.

I'm not saying that they are not Androids, it's just not representative to what people read out of these statistics.

Apple has absolutely zero desire to go into the low end marketshare, their 30 year history clearly demonstrates they have no desire to ever compete on razor thin margins.

To any business success lies in profit not market share. As long as they maintain high profitability nobody should be worried about their future.


I agree.

A $50 or $100 Android phone, bought by low-income people that never download Apps or use the web or even email, and a $600 iPhone isn't even in the same market, and shouldn't never be compared as far as "Market share" goes.

These low-end phones are used only as phones or for SMS, not as smart phones. The users of these devices are completely different from iPhone users.

There is no money to be made from these people, either directly or through the ecosystem.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,137
31,192
I have regularly seen reports from two different "market research" firms that have drastically different results for the same month/quarter. Something missing in this article is who commissioned the report - I've never heard of Kantar before - is this a report they are doing for general consumption or were they commissioned by a company pro-some-group (such as a rival phone manufacturer)?

I have no idea. I do know that companies like IDC often restate prior quarter figures (especially with tablets) and all of a sudden some "white box" other category shows up with huge numbers. That's why I don't take these things seriously. And I wouldn't if they had Apple way up either. The only way to know what the true market is and a companies share of it is for companies to report what was shipped into the channel.

But even if these figures are somewhat accurate, no company other than Samsung has proven they can make a decent profit selling cheap phones. Also do any Android OEMs (maybe Samsung or maybe Nokia in certain parts of Europe) have real customer loyalty? My guess is no. My guess its based on price more than anything. And I don't think it's a good idea for Apple to start courting price sensitive consumers. I think Apple needs to focus on keeping its brand premium and designing products that people are willing to pay more for. Apple is never going to win a race to the bottom with cheap hardware.

----------

had the numbers been more in Apple's favor, I doubt we would be seeing posts questioning the credibility of the source

You would, from the ones that got MR to change their headline. ;)
 

springsup

macrumors 65816
Feb 14, 2013
1,225
1,214
Every time I post this, I get a huge number of people disagreeing with me. Still, I'm going to post it again:

The key reason iOS is losing ground is price. Plain and simple.

If Apple's plan was to provide a more attractive entry-level offering with the 5C, they failed miserably. Apple's older models are priced even higher than recent models of their competitors (such as Nokia).

Apple's prices seem to be set in stone. That's a tragic mistake, because those prices were set at a time when Apple had a huge lead over their competition. That lead is much smaller now, but the price difference is not.

Ultimately, that leads to Apple losing the value proposition. They're simply not worth the price difference. I don't recommend iPhones to my friends or family any more (in fact, my sister just picked up a Nokia Lumia for £70 unlocked and off-contract; fantastic value).

Apple is going to keep on losing market share until they get this. Take it from Steve:

Steve Jobs said:
What ruined Apple was not growth … They got very greedy … Instead of following the original trajectory of the original vision, which was to make the thing an appliance and get this out there to as many people as possible … they went for profits. They made outlandish profits for about four years. What this cost them was their future. What they should have been doing is making rational profits and going for market share.

Apple are now literally making so much money they don't know what to do with it all. Surely the iPhone's volume has become massive enough that prices can be lowered by even as much as $70-100 per unit and Apple would still be massively profitable.

I'm not sure Tim has the guts to make that decision. Steve lowered iPhone prices launch, and even gave existing customers a partial refund (as an Apple store credit)! Every source is saying that the iPhone is losing steam at the expense of Android, not gaining on it. Let's hope Apple aren't suffering from tunnel vision just because the iPhone is holding its own in the US; in Europe at least my own eyes can attest that Android is everywhere.
 

nerfologist

macrumors member
Jun 14, 2013
33
0
About Italy, IMHO the reasons of the double-figure decrease for iOS are:

  • Ridiculous price point for an incremental update to last year's phone (still with a smallish 4" display) (5S)
  • Ridiculous price point for last year's phone with a cheap plastic back (5C)
  • Aggressive Windows/Android prices (you can get a mainstream windows phone for as little as 79€ - and they're very smooth).
  • Less money to spend on status symbols this year...

My 2 cents :)
 
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