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Here's where I disagree. I'm not here for answers because clearly none of us are industry insiders. I'm here for insight and that's something I've gained from people on both sides of this argument.

I wrote the original post in order to put some ideas to the test. Some of them have been laid to rest, as far as I'm concerned, and others still pose interesting questions. I just wish more people took it with the suggested grain of salt instead of being argumentative. Meanwhile, I've learned a thing or two, despite not having the answers. That's not so retarded.

Well said, and that's why I'm here as well. Look, if we were industry insiders or we had solid evidence to present, then this thread would have ended a long time ago because there would be nothing left to discuss--we'd already have the answer.

I've watched how Apple works for a long time (I'm also a shareholder), and based on that, I'm pretty certain that IF we do get a CDMA iPhone one day, it will be a complete secret until Apple drops the bomb all of a sudden. There MIGHT be a hint or two, and I've kept my eyes open for those as my prior posts indicate, but generally we learn big news from Apple when they choose to release it (with a lot of fanfare), and not a moment sooner. Until then it's just rumors and guesses.

I don't at all believe that I'm a wishful thinker (or you, or the others open to the possibility). We've come here and given well thought out arguments why we think a CDMA iPhone is possible. We've given consideration to market conditions, profit potential, the nature of typical carrier agreements in this industry, various facts that might point in this direction, etc. We've spelled it all out. Does it mean we're right? Of course not. We really have no idea. But we've offered talking points for discussion and I'm thankful to those who have responded with a similar degree of attention. That's why I'm still here. I tried to start a similar discussion in Howardforums a while back, but they ALL thought I was crazy and didn't want to "waste time" on the topic with me. So I bailed.

I think I've pretty much exhausted all I can say on the topic for now, but I'm still watching all the blogs for news and will drop by from time to time to see if you guys come across anything new.
 
If you have evidence that Sprint & Verizon do not share cdmaOne now, I'd be more than willing to glance at it.

I'll get right on proving that something doesn't exist. It usually works the other way around. I will say there is nothing registered with the FCC or the SEC. FCC for communications purposes. SEC for joint accounting purposes. I can also say that often times when I can get Sprint service in the poor coverage areas, I may get roaming coverage on Verizon's network. If they shared equipment I wouldn't be roaming and Sprint would have the same coverage. Roaming isn't considered sharing network equipment, it's a stopgap where Sprint pays Verizon airtime when they don't have their own network equipment in the area. Check some coverage maps...

Just like all radios receive the same frequencies, some pick up the signal better than others that need a coat hanger sticking out. And the reviewers that you're mentioning comparing networks had crappy phones from years past.

I'll be sure and let Nielsen Mobile's customers (every major U.S. cellular carrier) know that their testing methods are crap. Hint: They use a huge array of frequency scanning equipment - it's not one guy with a cellphone saying "Can you hear me now?"


Here's one example explaining how good the quality of reception is on the 755p

You're using PhoneScoops anecdotal "bars" observation as proof? Do you even know what bars on a phone actually represent? I'll give you a clue, next to nothing.

Again, I'm an RF engineer for a broadband service provider... Most of the "technical" stuff you type is grossly inaccurate.
 
Well said, and that's why I'm here as well. Look, if we were industry insiders or we had solid evidence to present, then this thread would have ended a long time ago because there would be nothing left to discuss--we'd already have the answer.
Exactly... so, if nobody knows WTF they're talking about, why are you trying to further a discussion that nobody can intelligently partake in.

... but generally we learn big news from Apple when they choose to release it (with a lot of fanfare), and not a moment sooner. Until then it's just rumors and guesses.
Exactly... rumors and guesses, and a whole lotta waiting until you hear it from Apple!! So, why are you asking us, again?

We've come here and given well thought out arguments why we think a CDMA iPhone is possible. We've given consideration to market conditions, profit potential, the nature of typical carrier agreements in this industry, various facts that might point in this direction, etc. We've spelled it all out. Does it mean we're right? Of course not. We really have no idea. But we've offered talking points for discussion and I'm thankful to those who have responded with a similar degree of attention. That's why I'm still here. I tried to start a similar discussion in Howardforums a while back, but they ALL thought I was crazy and didn't want to "waste time" on the topic with me. So I bailed.
There are definitely good reasons for Apple to develop a CDMA iPhone. It's prolly not good for them to do so based on what we know and accept as the "multi-year agreement". Until someone gives details of this agreement, you might as well just accept whatever you'd like to believe inside your head. As a shareholder, shouldn't you already have access to the details of this agreement? Report back with details, ASAP!
 
I'll get right on proving that something doesn't exist. It usually works the other way around. I will say there is nothing registered with the FCC or the SEC. FCC for communications purposes. SEC for joint accounting purposes. I can also say that often times when I can get Sprint service in the poor coverage areas, I may get roaming coverage on Verizon's network. If they shared equipment I wouldn't be roaming and Sprint would have the same coverage. Roaming isn't considered sharing network equipment, it's a stopgap where Sprint pays Verizon airtime when they don't have their own network equipment in the area. Check some coverage maps...
OK, I asked you to prove that they didn't share voice/data network, because a Google search of "Verizon Sprint roam OR roaming" would easily lead you to results of shared voice/data. I call it sharing, you call it roaming... we're both right, Mr. Technical, but you don't need to be so snobby about it. I wasn't aware that anyone paid for roaming these days, so the term sharing seems like just as good of a substitute for roaming. Last time I checked, Sprint allows you to use up to 50% of your voice calls per month on other networks. You can find some details to support your argument that they're not "sharing", but that sounds like sharing to me.

I'll be sure and let Nielsen Mobile's customers (every major U.S. cellular carrier) know that their testing methods are crap. Hint: They use a huge array of frequency scanning equipment - it's not one guy with a cellphone saying "Can you hear me now?"
Did they test with a 755p?? 'Cause it would have lit up the whole country as Sprint/Verizon-certified, baby!!

You're using PhoneScoops anecdotal "bars" observation as proof? Do you even know what bars on a phone actually represent? I'll give you a clue, next to nothing.
I never mentioned anything of bars, I mentioned RECEPTION / CALL QUALITY. I know all about signal's RSSI being measured in dB, but that really doesn't tell you much about RECEPTION / CALL QUALITY either.

Again, I'm an RF engineer for a broadband service provider... Most of the "technical" stuff you type is grossly inaccurate.
I haven't mentioned too many technical things. Just what I've read in news articles about the carriers... the same basic stuff that most everybody else knows.

What most people don't know is that if they had a 755p, they'd have to try VERY, VERY, VERY hard to find someplace that Sprint couldn't handle your call(s). What I said numerous times thru-out this thread is... Treo 755p + Sprint = NO dropped calls. Is that equation technical enough for you? 755p + Verizon will also = NO dropped calls.

Anybody with a 755p care to disagree with this statement?
 
never going to happen. CDMA is slower and crapper then 3G. (not sure about in the US but it is everywhere else in the world.) So just wait until the AT&T contract ends after 5 years, then you might have some chance, other wise, no iPhone for you, of switch.
 
never going to happen. CDMA is slower and crapper then 3G.
That's why all 3G is some derivative of CDMA, right?? CDMA is technology from way before 2000... all carriers are moving to W-CDMA or CDMA2000. Now would be the time for Mr. Technical to correct me. And yes, the evolution continues further with all carriers moving LTE, but Sprint is going with WiMax. Sprint's always first, but that's definitely not what's always best.

These terms are all quite confusing, but the "CDMA" carriers in the US (Sprint, Verizon) are the ones leading the pack in terms of innovation. Sprint & Verizon had this country blanketed with 3G for quite some time now (I live in Mississippi and had EV-DO last year when I bought my 755p; ATT won't give me 3G service for prolly more than a year.). ATT is always doing the catchup (worst service, crappiest phones), but now they've got the hottest phone in all the land for what seems like FOREVER.

I'll prolly die of anxiety before the phone comes to a "CDMA" carrier.
 
verizon

I gave up in december , was a little worried about service but havent had any problems yet!
 
That's why all 3G is some derivative of CDMA, right?? CDMA is technology from way before 2000... all carriers are moving to W-CDMA or CDMA2000. Now would be the time for Mr. Technical to correct me.
Most carriers are moving to LTE which uses W-CDMA as its channel access method. The data which rides on those W-CDMA channels is based on GSM technology, not CDMA2000 which is a 2.5/3G technology.

It's like saying NBC and analog broadcasts are the same thing. They're not. NBC can also broadcast on a digital channel or an HD channel. But if they use the same non-HD source the picture still looks the same, but because it's digital it's a more efficient use of bandwidth. NBC can be transmitted via analog, digital or digital HD. Digital HD can carry standard or high definition NBC. GSM uses TDMA channels. cdmaOne uses CDMA channels. UMTS uses wideband-CDMA (W-CDMA) channels. CDMA2000 uses CDMA channels. EV-DO uses 3x-wide-CDMA channels. LTE uses W-CDMA channels.

There are no technicalities about it, again you're just plain wrong
 
Let's assume that the 5-year exclusive is legit. It might as well be, for all I know. What I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is why the exclusive would benefit Apple after one or two years.

  • AT&T subsidizes the iPhone. Isn't that par for the course with any cell phone, regardless of exclusives? In other words, if it wasn't exclusive and was available on all North American networks, wouldn't they all be subsidizing it anyway? Every phone I've ever bought was subsidized in some way because that's how they get you to sign contracts.
  • Let's assume (because I don't know) that AT&T is subsidizing the iPhone more than others (let's say $200 instead of $100). Is that going to attract more customers to AT&T than Apple is losing by not offering their phone to the rest of the GSM and CDMA customers in North America?
  • We know that revenue sharing is over, so Apple's not getting that out of the deal any more.

I guess it just seems unlikely to me that either company is gaining enough from a 5 year exclusive to make it worthwhile for both of them. At some point long before 5 years is up, you would think that AT&T will have snared pretty much anybody who is going to switch for the sake of an iPhone. In fact, after a year of these subsidies, what more will it take to get somebody to switch? Just seems like diminishing returns for both companies after that.
 
Exactly... so, if nobody knows WTF they're talking about, why are you trying to further a discussion that nobody can intelligently partake in.

Exactly... rumors and guesses, and a whole lotta waiting until you hear it from Apple!! So, why are you asking us, again?

There are definitely good reasons for Apple to develop a CDMA iPhone. It's prolly not good for them to do so based on what we know and accept as the "multi-year agreement". Until someone gives details of this agreement, you might as well just accept whatever you'd like to believe inside your head. As a shareholder, shouldn't you already have access to the details of this agreement? Report back with details, ASAP!

Many people are intelligently partaking, but certainly not you! And I have not asked you anything, I've posted thoughts and observations for discussion. But you don't care about that - you want facts or nothing. Why are you so offended by this thread, and why do you keep coming back for more? Just admit it, you are here to flame those who don't buy the 5-year agreement verbatim. At least then we'll know where you stand.
 
Most carriers are moving to LTE which uses W-CDMA as its channel access method. The data which rides on those W-CDMA channels is based on GSM technology, not CDMA2000 which is a 2.5/3G technology.
Didn't I already say this??

It's like saying NBC and analog broadcasts are the same thing. They're not. NBC can also broadcast on a digital channel or an HD channel. But if they use the same non-HD source the picture still looks the same, but because it's digital it's a more efficient use of bandwidth. NBC can be transmitted via analog, digital or digital HD. Digital HD can carry standard or high definition NBC. GSM uses TDMA channels. cdmaOne uses CDMA channels. UMTS uses wideband-CDMA (W-CDMA) channels. CDMA2000 uses CDMA channels. EV-DO uses 3x-wide-CDMA channels. LTE uses W-CDMA channels.
Thank you for proving my point that all carriers were continuing an evolution of the CDMA network. Are they moving toward W-GSM, or GSM2000?? Is the future GSM/GPRS/EDGE??? Nope, those technologies will be dead within a year, whereas Sprint & Verizon's same old networks will be doing the same thing they've been doing for years.

There are no technicalities about it, again you're just plain wrong
What was it that I said was wrong?? I said that all carriers are moving toward an evolution of the CDMA network, Sprint & Verizon "share" networks, and that the 755p will never have dropped calls. If you can disprove this, please provide links.... because I'm really done with the thread now.

The whole point is that Verizon & Sprint users won't see the iPhone until 2012, when the end of the world is supposed to take place. So, good luck with that.
 
Didn't I already say this??

What was it that I said was wrong??

Seriously, if you don't understand wireless standards and transmission methods and the differences between the two by now - I'm not sure that you ever will.

I'm going to go ahead and refer you to CNet. If you don't understand that and can't do some self-learning, then feel free to continue posting information that makes you look ignorant.

The CNet article on Verizon's 4th Generation cell network.

And here are two direct quotes for you,

Verizon Communications and Vodafone, joint owners of Verizon Wireless, plan to use the LTE (Long Term Evolution) standard backed by GSM industry players rather than the UMB (ultramobile broadband) standard backed by Verizon's current partners.

and,

The move toward LTE would bring Verizon into the GSM world and enable travelers to use their phones around the world (for a hefty fee, of course).

Yes, that's correct - Verizon is moving into the GSM world!

Also that build out for LTE will take them a couple of years, because CDMA is not compatible with W-CDMA. Verizon will be building out a new network for LTE and when they have all their subscribers pushed over, they'll kill their CDMA network. But guess what, UMTS, AT&T's current 3G technology already uses the LTE infrastructure, so they just change standards and their network remains.



Let me summarize.

Verizon is moving to GSM standards.
AT&T's current network is the same network as used for LTE.
Verizon's current 3G network is not compatible with LTE.

Qualcomm's CDMA standards are dead.
GSM Association's standards prevail.




BTW, Sprint and Verizon do not share networks, they simply use the same technology. That's the equivalent of saying we share the same phone because we both own a 755p. And personally, I don't care about the dead Treo platform - I've had free flip-phones that never dropped a call.
 
I repeat...
grndslm said:
What was it that I said was wrong?? I said that all carriers are moving toward an evolution of the CDMA network, Sprint & Verizon "share" networks, and that the 755p will never have dropped calls. If you can disprove this, please provide links.... because I'm really done with the thread now.
The current GSM network is already an evolution of CDMA, is it not?? I've never once said that cdmaOne was the be all-end all... I said that all networks are an evolution of CDMA. Thru-out this entire thread. Correct me if I'm wrong. Just because the "GSM path" includes upgrading to CDMA technology doesn't mean that the "CDMA path" isn't what's really being chosen.

I can get up to 50% of my voice/data on non-Sprint networks, so by some kinda agreement they have.... they are sharing -- or roaming, for the politically correct.

And I also HATE the palm platform, but that doesn't excuse the fact that the radio inside it is amazing. I strictly use this phone for phone purposes & use the keyboard for searching for contacts & messaging. It's my communication phone, but I'm searching for something else.

I'd like something else like an unlocked 3G iPhone, or maybe a Gigabyte M528, or maybe a Nokia N800, or maybe a Pandora. I don't know what I'm buying as my next Mobile Internet Device, but I know that I'm keeping my 755p as my phone because of the excellent reception. I'm still waiting on someone to tell me how much the call quality on this phone blows big ones.
 
I repeat...
The current GSM network is already an evolution of CDMA, is it not?? I've never once said that cdmaOne was the be all-end all... I said that all networks are an evolution of CDMA. Thru-out this entire thread. Correct me if I'm wrong. Just because the "GSM path" includes upgrading to CDMA technology doesn't mean that the "CDMA path" isn't what's really being chosen.

It's not WCDMA isn't based on CDMA. It's the same in terms of the concepts that underlie its functionalities, but the standard itself is different and incompatible. Just because "WCDMA" has "CDMA" in it doesn't mean they're related.
 
All this discussion about LTE and the future of cell phone technology has little to do with right now. Handsets change on around a 6 - 12 month cycle and many people upgrade every 1-2 years. In other words, things happen fast in this industry. It would really surprise me if Apple decided not to invest in CDMA hardware now just because of LTE, considering that LTE won't be widely implemented until around 2010-2012. Apple could make a lot of money on CDMA handsets and really expand their market share between now and then.
 
Verizon?

i did not read the whole thread, but here's my two cents... i waited a few months to get my iphone after they came out... i had been with verizon since 1998, and had been touring for about 8 years... i thought that verizon service was the best service all over the country... certainly in comparison to anyone else i had ever been on tour with... but then i finally sucked it up and bought and iphone, and reluctantly switched to at&t... i thought my service was going to suck, but i actually have way better service now than i used to with verizon... im glad i switched, verizon kind of sucks.
 
i did not read the whole thread, but here's my two cents... i waited a few months to get my iphone after they came out... i had been with verizon since 1998, and had been touring for about 8 years... i thought that verizon service was the best service all over the country... certainly in comparison to anyone else i had ever been on tour with... but then i finally sucked it up and bought and iphone, and reluctantly switched to at&t... i thought my service was going to suck, but i actually have way better service now than i used to with verizon... im glad i switched, verizon kind of sucks.

It all depends on where you live, my friend.
 
Yes, that's correct - Verizon is moving into the GSM world!
This is my problem with your argument. You keep saying Verizon is moving into the "GSM world" when there will not be a GSM world for much longer. The GSM world isn't quite much of a GSM world at all.

It all depends on where you live, my friend.
And this is another point some of continue to ignore. It's more about the radio in your phone than where you live. The phone The Doctor had on Verizon prolly sucked. If he had a 755p on Verizon, he would be saying Verizon's the greatest.

Repeat after me: "My phone is more important than my carrier if I'd like to receive good cell phone service!"
 
This is my problem with your argument. You keep saying Verizon is moving into the "GSM world" when there will not be a GSM world for much longer. The GSM world isn't quite much of a GSM world at all.

How will there not be a GSM world no longer? LTE is the standard decided upon by the GSM Association to succeed UTMS. The GSM Association is still behind it, and UTMS is still referred to as being 3G GSM (just as LTE is referred to as 4G GSM). The GSM technology may be dead, but the world isn't. It's just evolving.
 
I'd like to congratulate grndslm for completely derailing this thread and sending it way off-topic.

That said, if anybody feels like responding to post #186, it contains what for me is the last big question out of this argument: while I see what both companies could get out of a 1 or 2 year exclusive, I'm having trouble seeing what either would get out of a 5 year exclusive. Please see #186 for more details.
 
while I see what both companies could get out of a 1 or 2 year exclusive, I'm having trouble seeing what either would get out of a 5 year exclusive. Please see #186 for more details.

IF the exclusivity was in return for constant revenue sharing, then it made sense. But since the latter is gone, it doesn't. As you said.

Now, originally there was other speculation on the contract. One version always seemed more likely to me: that they had a contract for sales for five years, but that the exclusivity was only for two.

As I've said before, a five year exclusivity would've meant that Apple was either incredibly desperate (and I don't think they were, since they were already working with Cingular) or incredibly stupid (and while I think they're often sleazy and loose with facts, I don't think they're unintelligent.)
 
Let's assume that the 5-year exclusive is legit. It might as well be, for all I know. What I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is why the exclusive would benefit Apple after one or two years.

  • AT&T subsidizes the iPhone. Isn't that par for the course with any cell phone, regardless of exclusives? In other words, if it wasn't exclusive and was available on all North American networks, wouldn't they all be subsidizing it anyway? Every phone I've ever bought was subsidized in some way because that's how they get you to sign contracts.
  • Let's assume (because I don't know) that AT&T is subsidizing the iPhone more than others (let's say $200 instead of $100). Is that going to attract more customers to AT&T than Apple is losing by not offering their phone to the rest of the GSM and CDMA customers in North America?
  • We know that revenue sharing is over, so Apple's not getting that out of the deal any more.


I'll respond.

Let's start with your second point. Today's analyst information surmises that AT&T is subsidizing Apple between $325 and $425 per iPhone handset. The $425 figure is based on new subscribers to AT&T with the requirement that the new subscriber joins in an Apple retail store. I guessed earlier this week that AT&T may be subsidizing as high as $500 per unit based on the non-contractual PayGo phone prices being offered outside the U.S. One thing is clear, the exclusivity agreement allows Apple to sell a very high priced phone for a very low price while still making the margins they want.

Now your first point, the AT&T subsidy is much higher than expected with the added benefit of a commission for new subscribers. Giving AT&T the exclusive gives Apple the ability to make good return on the handset while offering a price at and sometimes below the competitors. Most of those competitors will need to lower their cost to the carrier to get the same price points, thereby undercutting their own revenue. As has been stated by AT&T, they're losing money on the iPhone project for the next two years. They are not getting extra subscriber money for the iPhone, it's the same as it is for any AT&T smartphone. Their goal is more subscribers and more premium subscribers at that.

Your last point. As you can see above, Apple is still making money off AT&T, more than the average phone manufaturer. Most contracts are renegotiable at certain points in the contract, obviously that requires both sides to agree that they're getting what they want. Assuming the iPhone build cost is similar to the cost the first iPhone, more components but cheaper prices, AT&T is giving Apple $125 per handset or $225 per new subscriber above previous retail. This would be $5 per subscriber and $9 per new subscriber (upfront) which is near Piper Jaffray's initial estimate of $3 and $11, but not his later estimate of $18. Either way, I'm sure Apple is getting what they want out of the deal, even if that means less money and more units. More units means more people who will stick with the iPhone upgrade cycle.

I guess it just seems unlikely to me that either company is gaining enough from a 5 year exclusive to make it worthwhile for both of them. At some point long before 5 years is up, you would think that AT&T will have snared pretty much anybody who is going to switch for the sake of an iPhone. In fact, after a year of these subsidies, what more will it take to get somebody to switch? Just seems like diminishing returns for both companies after that.

The iPhone is the iPod of the phone world. Whether or not we think it's true, the mainstream media and iPhone carriers treat it as such. With that comes a new generation of non-exchange, non-Blackberry smartphone owners - "the rest of us." iPhone is the crossover device which will take AT&T's $45 subscribers to $75 subscribers. AT&T's business model requires that they have the infrastructure as long as one subscriber uses it. Therefore, the operational cost remains relatively the same whether there are 10 data subscribers or 10,000 data subscribers. Switching voice customers to data customers is mostly profit and very beneficial to AT&T - the iPhone is the best device on the market to spur data plan upgrades. Every carrier is benefiting from the smartphone attention, but the iPhone is the true catalyst. AT&T is the exclusive carrier of the next "iPod" and with 250 million wireless subscribers in the U.S., they have a long way to go. As for Apple, AT&T is giving them exactly what they ask for, AT&T provides the services and implements new ones specifically for the iPhone and Apple builds the phone the way they want.

Apple was clearly asking for a lot when Verizon turned them down. They're still getting everything they asked for from AT&T in one form or another. They've changed to a subsidy plan that the public is more familiar with but the money is still changing hands in the background.
 
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