iPod Factory Conditions Update

[theheadguy]

But remember that this is not Apple's fault; in fact it was just the fault of an irresponsible supplier. As long as Apple takes appropriate action to investigate this case, there should be no PR problem like the one Nike has had.

I think it's important that you don't defend Apple so quickly. Certainly a dangerous place for me to "go against the grain" here, I know.

"Out of site, out of mind" is not acceptable, with any company including Apple. The supplier ethics policy has strict guidelines. Why have the guidelines if you never check on the supplier? Just for PR to satisfy people who love Apple and don't want the pristine image touched. The penalty for not watching your suppliers is eventually someone else will, and then you are in hot water.

So before we say "But remember that this is not Apple's fault," let's hear what Apple has to say about it. I think that's fair and equitable for everyone (except for those factory workers, regardless of their geographic location).

I do agree with you that it is the suppliers fault (if not also Apple's). One might say that Apple can not check on every supplier all the time. I agree. An example of one I can understand they not visit often would be a factory in thailand that produces the rubber feet for the bottom of powerbooks. However, iPods are the lifeblood of Apple as it is today (I love macs as much as the next person here). So when you have a supplier who actually is heavily involved with the product that generates the most/main income for Apple, maybe they should check on the factories once in a while?

Finally, Tim Cook is the chief operating officer for Apple. He is also on the board of directors for Nike. Nike factory conditions are terrible (common knowledge) and he isn't requesting them to do a damn thing about it. Take that for what you will, I just think it's interesting.

 

[Peace]

snippet

An example of one I can understand they not visit often would be a factory in thailand that produces the rubber feet for the bottom of powerbooks. However, iPods are the lifeblood of Apple as it is today (I love macs as much as the next person here). So when you have a supplier who actually is heavily involved with the product that generates the most/main income for Apple, maybe they should check on the factories once in a while?

A sweatshop is a sweatshop no matter how small the part might be.As in the rubber boots for Laptops..

 

[imacdaddy]

Terminating the contract with Foxconn and giving it to someone else would not solve anything. The outcome will still be the same because of supply and demand from Apple and consumers. I'm sure the demands from Apple are very unreasonable to have quantities delivered GLOBALLY upon the usual Apple product launch. So it's not uncommon for suppliers like Foxconn to kick production into full gear to deliver the units on time. I'm sure the same thing is happening at Asustek to deliver Macbooks worldwide on Apple's deadline.

So who's at fault here??? Don't blame the suppliers!

 

[dealunion]

Remember. This is China; people are not unionized. Assuming that they work a long, 70-hour workweek without overtime, 80 extra hours a month (20 hours a week), will degrade work conditions past acceptable standards.

Even if they had a "regular" 40-hour workweek (which they don't), an extra 20 hours would give them a 60-hour workweek, which is still a fair amount of time. It was a clever ploy to say 80 hours a month instead of 20 hours a week, because it seems like a lot less.

But remember that this is not Apple's fault; in fact it was just the fault of an irresponsible supplier. As long as Apple takes appropriate action to investigate this case, there should be no PR problem like the one Nike has had.

It's of course Apple's fault, work overtime is forbidden in China according to the related labor laws, they should get an extra paid.

 

[wayfarer_boy]

No, you're right. As consumers of this technology, we can't blame suppliers, designers or even retailers entirely for worker's conditions or unethical practices.

A bizarre example here, but stick with me...as an example of ethics and consumerism, take the UK's supermarket leader Tesco and their response to public outcry. It was revealed that over 50% of farmer's perfectly healthy stock was returned to them, and 50% more left to rot due to 'mishapen fruit and veg'. "Consumers only buy fruit and vegetables that look a certain way - if we were to put this stock out on the shelf we'd lose money."

In the same way, Apple is doing what all non-ethics-based corporates do - finding the cheapest manufacturer in order to sell the consumer a machine at optimum cost - because "that's what consumers want".

Although it's easy for companies to blame consumers for shifting manufacturing to cheaper (union and regulation free) Eastern factories, or for creating food mountains in rich western countries, it's also very easy for consumers to forget about ethics when staring at Apples on the shelf. There are other more ethical options out there, it just takes more effort and resolve as a consumer to find them.

 

[apachie2k]

ohh...so it's my fault that apple chose a supplier that exploits the hard working people in 3rd world contries... j/k i guess we could just STOP buying apple products because of what thier supplier is doing, we could go back to... ummm lets just hope apple takes care of what they need to take care of. now i just hope the price doesn't go up another $1000 for a mac book pro, cuz i would like one very much...

 

[fixyourthinking]

i guess we could just STOP buying apple products because of what thier supplier is doing, we could go back to.

You know, if no other company (Dell, Sony, Toshiba, HP) did the same thing we could actually say ... we could go somewhere else ... but the reality is competing companies computers and peripherals are made in the exact same factories by the exact same workers.

 

[spikeovsky]

Translation of a Chinese report here:
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060623_1.htm

Good analysis:
http://asia.cnet.com/reviews/blog/littleredblog/0,39056119,39368720,00.htm

 

[imacdaddy]

Translation of a Chinese report here:
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060623_1.htm

Good analysis:
http://asia.cnet.com/reviews/blog/littleredblog/0,39056119,39368720,00.htm

Thanks spike for the cnet article!

"And the notion of a US$250 iPod nano being made for US$50 a month is a little jarring". It's quite obvious who is making the most of the profit margins here. It aint Foxconn. Apple? and then Samsung for the NAND Flash?

 

[ethen]

I've been to china a couple of times, and at once i stayed for 6 months just to survey their manufacturing places (mostly textile).

I first hand experience a big shock when i saw a clothing factory in nanjing. i saw a 7 years old sawing beside her mom, i asked the manager there and he said the child was just playing with the clothing. I node and walked out of that factory without signing any contract with them. From what i see the child was working on the same cloth the rest of them does and she even have her own basket.

Aside from that, the factory condition was terrible, not to mention the air quality in there and how hot it is (there is only one small fan in room), the floor was really dirty, and their housing is terrible. One big room with sort of like a futon that are so thin laying on the dirty floor. It is really heart breaking to see it for yourselves. I hope Apple and Foxconn really does be open and show that they did not treat their worker like slaves and animals.

I also went to taiwan and see couple textile factories, nothing like the one in china, much cleaner and at least look more humane.

 

[shamino]

Translation of a Chinese report here:
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060623_1.htm

Thanks for this article. It changes quite a bit. Some better, some worse.

Of note:

• The hourly wage being paid is consistent with local laws and are no lower than those paid by other electronics manufacturing facilities.
• The dorm facilities are pretty scary, but workers are not required to live there. Apparently, most live off-site.
• Many people do work 8 hour days. Many more choose to work extremely long hours in order to get overtime pay. The ones interviewed are very upset that there is not currently enough orders to work 17 hours a day.
• Workers appear to have to pay the company for any days they don't work, even if they're off because there's no work to be done. The article does not say if this is simply rent for dorm space or if those living off-site also have to pay.
• One worker interviewed was going hungry on Friday night, because company-provided meals are not free outside of working hours and he didn't want to pay.

It is very unclear how much of this is actual human-rights abuse, how much is simply culture-shock to our American/European standards, and how much is workers voluntarily choosing an extremely hard life in order to earn more money than they could otherwise get.

 

[mrplow]

EXTRA hours.

So they could already well be working 10 hours per day, PLUS on top of that, an average of 2 extra hours per day, for no extra pay!

What's your point again?

Btw 80 hours a month, you gotta be dreaming, even lazy Americans work more than that.

6 hour shifts at Victoria's Secret turned into 12hr shfits (going until 3AM) REGULARLY.. and I didn't get paid any over time, as they insured that I didn't work over 40hrs in a given week. Granted it's not the same, and this job paid for itself (as I'm male) but the point being... people work 12+hr days even here in America where laziness is the key to our society.


oh and before I'm attacked I DO NOT agree with sweatshops, etc... just sharing.

 

[theheadguy]

A sweatshop is a sweatshop no matter how small the part might be.As in the rubber boots for Laptops..

I agree with you totally and never said or think a sweatshop is okay anywhere. We are on the same page. 🙂

 

[Maxx Power]

I've been to china a couple of times, and at once i stayed for 6 months just to survey their manufacturing places (mostly textile).

I first hand experience a big shock when i saw a clothing factory in nanjing. i saw a 7 years old sawing beside her mom, i asked the manager there and he said the child was just playing with the clothing. I node and walked out of that factory without signing any contract with them. From what i see the child was working on the same cloth the rest of them does and she even have her own basket.

Aside from that, the factory condition was terrible, not to mention the air quality in there and how hot it is (there is only one small fan in room), the floor was really dirty, and their housing is terrible. One big room with sort of like a futon that are so thin laying on the dirty floor. It is really heart breaking to see it for yourselves. I hope Apple and Foxconn really does be open and show that they did not treat their worker like slaves and animals.

I also went to taiwan and see couple textile factories, nothing like the one in china, much cleaner and at least look more humane.

I suspect so many of the forum's posters for this and the previous thread have no idea because they have never been to China. I was saying the same thing on the last thread on this topic. Most of these factories don't allow tourists or any employee to walk in and out with cameras, but images of these places still float around.

 

[shamino]

So they could already well be working 10 hours per day, PLUS on top of that, an average of 2 extra hours per day, for no extra pay!

Please read the article that spikeovsky linked to: http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060623_1.htm.

According to this article, overtime is voluntary, and paid.

There may well be some serious human rights violations going on here, but being forced to perform unpaid overtime is not one of them.

 

[spikeovsky]

Glad you found the articles interesting. One thing I'd like to point out is about the on-site dorms: At the *best* universities in China, it's common for students to live 6-8 to a room in bunks. So while the photos of worker dorms seem grim, they don't actually look so bad to me (a foreigner who has lived in Beijing for two years). Take that as you will.

 

[Jimmy Crackcorn]

"Sweatshops"

The controversy over sweatshops amazes me. What we call "sweatshops," people in China and many other countries call "jobs." One more example of the US trying to foist our values on everyone else.

 

[theheadguy]

The controversy over sweatshops amazes me. What we call "sweatshops," people in China and many other countries call "jobs." One more example of the US trying to foist our values on everyone else.

You are 100% right. How dare the US support human rights for other humans. They are in another part of the world- let them suffer- it's a job!

::high-five's Jimmy Crackcorn::

🙄

 

[drewyboy]

You are 100% right. How dare the US support human rights for other humans. They are in another part of the world- let them suffer- it's a job!

::high-five's Jimmy Crackcorn::

🙄

This subject is pretty tricky and touchy. I think some are going overboard on both sides. One saying everything needs to look like the U.S. and that we are trying to push our living on others, yet the other is saying that these people are so unhappy.

The question is, are you living in their culture. NO. I've noticed pretty much all posters are from the U.S. or the UK. I was just in Israel for the last 2 and half weeks and in Jerusalem, some of those places i KNOW some of you would say they are living inhumane. But if you actually spent the time to talk to them, they are totally content with their lives having to open their shops up at the butt crack of dawn till late at night selling t-shirts for $3.50. I know it's not the exact same, but the same idea.

What we here in america & uk consider humane is to have ur own comfy bed, maybe share a room with 2 or 3 other ppl like a dorm room in college, have money to buy an ice cream bar here or there and be able to take showers whenever we want. WE have created what WE think to be humane. Have you ever thought that some of these people might come from places that don't have electricity, running water, eletronics, believe it or not those places DO exist. For all you know they could consider this a chance of a life time. To work as many hours as they want, have a place to stay, to be fed just for working, and a chance to do something other than farm.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for humane work places, but once again, ask yourself who sets the bar as to what "humane" is. What I consider humane is the choice to quit, not forced, no abuse whether it be verbal or physical, and decent pay. Just cuz we are use to gett'n paid $6.15 an hour and McDonalds doesn't mean that's what we should expect over there. Does anyone know how far the money they receive can go?

Visiting there you are already used to seeing your way of life, so when you see it differently you automatically compare it to yours. It's there culture NOT YOURS!

Sorry it's long, I had to vent.

 

[shamino]

You are 100% right. How dare the US support human rights for other humans. They are in another part of the world- let them suffer- it's a job!

I hope you were trying to be funny.

It is incredibly arrogant to believe that European and American standards should be the definition of "human rights".

It's one thing to say that workers should not be physically abused or forced to work against their will.

It's quite another to say that basic human rights means a five-day work week, with time-and-a-half for overtime beyond 8 hours a day, five weeks paid vacation, two cars, a house in the suburbs, universal health-care and guaranteed college education for as many children as you want.

If you think the entire world should copy what Europe does (or would like to do), fine, that's your opinion. But it is quite another to claim that these goals should be the definition of basic human rights, with everything less being treated no different from slavery.

 

[theheadguy]

I hope you were trying to be funny.

Okay, didn't work for everyone I see. Of course I wasn't serious (read my posts above)

It is incredibly arrogant to believe that European and American standards should be the definition of "human rights".
..
It's quite another to say that basic human rights means a five-day work week, with time-and-a-half for overtime beyond 8 hours a day, five weeks paid vacation, two cars, a house in the suburbs, universal health-care and guaranteed college education for as many children as you want.

I didn't read a post where one person here stated anything REMOTELY close to this. I don't want this thread to turn in to a pissing contest based on technicalities, but what you've said is WAY off base from what anyone here is expecting. Even the biggest human rights advocates don't ask people get 5 weeks vacation, let alone a house in the suburbs etc. So let's tone it down a bit and stay in reality.

Please read the article that spikeovsky linked to: http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060623_1.htm.
According to this article, overtime is voluntary, and paid.
There may well be some serious human rights violations going on here, but being forced to perform unpaid overtime is not one of them.

Lastly, all of your assumptions are based soley on this article. I can tell you from working at Apple directly (let alone a chinese factory) that overtime is NOT happily "voluntary." I'd like to think I am treated better than factory workers and if I am required to do extra hours, I doubt the factory workers are under as sweet conditions as you want to think that they are (i.e. overtime being voluntary). It's not all "culture shock." Not everyone here is that feeble minded that we can't take into account they are in China and their work ethic and conditions are vastly different from ours. The answer is somewhere in-between.

edit:spelling

 

[iMeowbot]

The site also claimed that Apple's special investigatory team had signed off on the factory conditions, apparently even after the news broke.

Apple denied this part of the story, in a statement to Cnet. The audit is not finished.

 

[tristan]

I just bought an iPod and inside the box was a picture of the 7 year old kid that made it. 😱

 

[Maxx Power]

You are 100% right. How dare the US support human rights for other humans. They are in another part of the world- let them suffer- it's a job!

::high-five's Jimmy Crackcorn::

🙄

Jimmy:

So in a eastern country, where traditionally people lived in different ways now have to live the entire non-sleeping portion of their daily lives to manufacture consumer goods for western countries, and this is called not forcing the U.S. philosophy on them, especially since this is only possible due to unilateral agreements like the WTO and *cough* heavy U.S. subsidies *cough*. I see how this works, so you go to a country where they live too peacefully, and push them out of their traditional businesses and practices and then "offer" them a "job" and say you are a humanitarian.

If I took away your home and made you live in a dumpster, I'd be offering you a place to stay, I should be cherished. If it happened, it'd be nothing personal too, so you don't have to get any human feelings or emotions involved that instinctively tells you that the other person doesn't like this kind of treatment because you don't, it's just business.

 

[spikeovsky]

It is incredibly arrogant to believe that European and American standards should be the definition of "human rights".
..
It's quite another to say that basic human rights means a five-day work week, with time-and-a-half for overtime beyond 8 hours a day, five weeks paid vacation, two cars, a house in the suburbs, universal health-care and guaranteed college education for as many children as you want.

I get really uncomfortable with this sort of moral relativism. In my mind this is a cop-out, a convenient justification of the methods used by those in charge that entirely evades the issue of whether something violates human rights. The are huge cultural differences between China and the West -- much bigger than I had thought before I came here -- but that doesn't mean "Western" ideas of treating employees well are unwelcome among those employees. I'm sure the Chinese would love a five-day work week, universal health care, etc. as much as anyone else.

That said, it's unrealistic to assume that these "Western" ideals could easily be set up in contemporary China. This is still a developing country, and there is simply no way for the government to support that sort of system yet. Sure, they could stop spending money on things like sending people into space, but even diverting cash from these to social programs would amount to little in the short term. Any amount of cash has to be divided among 1.3 billion people. It's going to take a lot of time for the situation to improve to the level that many people in the West would like to see.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that the Chinese government is actually trying to improve the lot of its people. Not necessarily out of altruism, but because it realises that this sort of development is necessary to prevent the country from exploding. From the point of view of the iPod factory workers, is this so bad? I think that to a large extent, the ends justify the means. So what if the Communist party stays in power if the vast majority of the people benefit from its policies?

Note: I am *not* defending the Chinese Communist Party and its atrocious human rights record shown through its actions against groups like FLG, or the June 4, 1989 "incident" -- note that I don't spell all these out because the Chinese internet nanny has been known to take exception to these terms and temporarily block access. But from the point of view of most Chinese people, it's not so bad as people outside of China make it out to be. As with most situations, it's hard to say what's black and what's white. Except for iPods 🙂