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gunnz said:
Why can't you return it? If it's really scratched up to the point where it's obviously a defect, you can exchange it (for a price of 25 bucks). People want their 25 bucks back, which is partly the reason for the lawsuit.

FACT:
I am a pretty recent Apple owner (iPod in June and a Mac Mini that I ordered less than two weeks ago). I may not be an expert, but this much I do know and is a fact. Apple recently came in first place (by a long shot) in a number of consumer ratings surveys for their customer service. Granted, this was for PC's but the just of this is that Apple knows a thing or two about customer service and loyalty. This is not my opinion but a fact recognized by a number of outside sources that have awarded Apple with the highest honors:

FACT:
I have a co-worker who tried to return an iPod to the local Apple Store (Clarendon) becasue their iPod mini had been dropped while running and started malfunctioning. The thing was dented and scratched as can be, and my co-worker thought that Apple would tell them to take a hike (due to both the cosmetic damage, and the fact that you could tell the thing had been dropped). Guess what Apple did? They gave him a brand new one, no questions asked.. Now he has purchased two more iPods (one for himself, one as a gift).

FACT:
I recently had some shipping problems (delay) with my Mac Mini and called Apple Customer Service to complain. Even though the issue appears to have been Fedex's fault, Apple apologized and gave me a $30 coupon of my next purchase of $100 or more. Even better, they followed up on my issue a few days later. They flat out care... In all my experience of owning PC's I have never been treated this fairly by a company (especially for a sub-$1000 computer purchase).

Now, I understand their policy, but has anyone actually tried to return one of these severly scratched iPods within the first 14 days? My guess is that if you gave Apple an opportunity to do the right thing they either will, or you can at least feel better because you tried..
 
matticus008 said:
If you choose one glass dinner plate over another based on aesthetics, do you expect the prettier plate to be less scratched by knives? Let's say that one has an opaque, matte finish and the other is a glossy, clear plate. Is that glossy plate, which is prettier, guilty of a flawed design for looking nicer and showing scratches more than the other plate?

It would be if it was intentionally designed to be more scratchable.


matticus008 said:
You are claiming that the idea that the nano is sold by looks somehow requires it to have different properties from anything else. There is no precedent for that. Does a Dodge Durango scratch as easily as a Ford Explorer? Pretty much. That the Dodge is ugly doesn't change anything. If you buy something based on appearance, as many people do, and you feel that appearance is important to maintain, then you should treat it with respect and take responsibility for cleaning and maintaining it. That's why people baby cars or kitchen appliances or furniture that look(s) good (whether they're expensive or not)--they take pride in maintaining appearance. The fact that a given object has a nice design doesn't alleviate consumer responsibility for taking care of it and if anything increases that responsibility. If you don't take any active role in preserving that appearance, then it won't stay that way. If you never clean your car or change your oil, it won't be a nice car anymore. It's not the manufacturer's fault.

And i suppose you can change the faceplate of the Nano at ease or will ? Take pride in buying and maintaning items, that's funny. Your ego has to be pretty high for that to glide.

matticus008 said:
EDIT: As for "hindering the readability of the screen"...it hasn't been demonstrated. Hypothetically, an unreadable screen would be a problem to address, but since there's no reality to that claim as of yet, it's not a relevant consideration. Well over a million people have had like six weeks now to demonstrate even one case of this claim, and it has not happened. No picture on the internet anywhere has shown any screen usability problem. The nano dropped six times run over twice, and then thrown into the air still had a legible screen (if the screen itself were still working). So stop using that argument unless you can demonstrate it. Not owning a nano yourself, I suspect that will be rather difficult.

I saw that Ars article the day it came out, dropped six times ? That's nothing for the polycarbonate, if you rubbed your nano with paper towel twice per day for 1 year, then tell me the scratch isn't excessive. Just go to Apple Discussion Boards for under 1000 posts in this category of screen issues pertaining to both breaking and excessive scratching of the screen. Maybe if you read a few of those user's woes, you'll change your mind. I can demonstrate the scratching, apparently microfibre even scratches the Nano, give me your nano, and i'll rub it with a paper towel for a minute, then we'll see. Do your research even on this thread, there are people claiming that that either their or other people's Nano they have seen are scratched to the point whhere you can not read it under sunlight. The whole point from my perspective is to put an injunction on marketing the nano the way it is, for it is deceiving, and produce further Nanos to resist the scratch bettter than it is now. Not owning a Nano ? Must I be a victim to put my self in other people's shoes ?

matticus008 said:
You are welcome to use it in your pocket. But it will scratch doing so in normal wear. Surface scratches on plastic are not "premature wear" because there is no time line for cosmetic damage. Whether you've owned it for one day or one hundred, the likelihood of it coming in contact with something that will scratch it is exactly the same. It depends on what comes in contact with the player, not how long you've had it. A painted wall might get scraped the day after it was painted (disappointing but not 'premature') or a two years later (less disappointing). Premature wear is like a fan belt that is guaranteed for 10,000 miles giving out after just 6,000, because it's in constant contact with the pulley and its lifespan can be calculated based on known constant stress. And just because you see Steve Ballmer on stage sweating like a pig and screaming like a monkey doesn't mean that you need to do it, too, or that doing so will make you filthy rich like him. Use some flipping common sense.
then maybe this lawsuit should bring about a definition for timeline on wear and tear for cosmetics of the Nano. without these guidelines printed and quotable somewhere, you'll just keep on dodging the point.

matticus008 said:
You twist them yourself. As has already been covered, polycarbonate is chosen in this field because of its other salient properties: great strength (25-30 times that of acrylic), high optical transparency, nonreaction to most common chemicals (unlike acrylic), low weight, its ability to cushion against impacts and not transmit kinetic energy (good for a dropped iPod), and its nature which resists cracking and chipping. Using additives negates the uses of the material. Using harder plastics is a bad idea, because it would make the iPod brittle. A crack is a far worse problem to face than some scratches that are easily polished. Please don't say "there is no reason" unless you've done your homework. You've demonstrated a patent lack of understanding of materials.

And you've demonstrated your naiveness. Using additives is common to obtain colour, softness, hardness, etc. Using coatings is common to increase scratch resistance, optical transmission or reflection. I hardly see there being a good reason for not doing something to increase the scratch resistance if vast amounts of technology exists in this field.

matticus008 said:
You missed the point. If a cordless phone, a TV, and a radio work, that proves that it's possible for the cell phone to work as well. They've chosen not to grant that ability. Current cell phone signals are not at or near the legal or FTC-deemed "safe" limits. They were deliberately chosen for other reasons, which are quite complex. Again, think through before spouting off.

You need some basic physics education. Have you looked at FTC's regulated bandwidth of EM waves ? Do you know how tight it is between gaps ? You want to assign cellphones to a different frequency or amplify its signals ? Think about the interference, battery life, and your own tissues. TV suffers from interference just like a cellphone does, cordless phone suffers interference just like a cellphone does. TV signals are analog, you still see the picture but it degrades gradually as the signal worsens. Cellphone signals are now days digital, you either hear things or get cut-off as the error rate goes up. Cordless phones have a fraction of the range your cellphone has from its central antenna in your location. And comparing 1800 or 800 or 900 or 1900 or 400Mhz signals to 2.4, 5.8 or 10 ghz cordless handsets, I'd say they did plan for you to be able to reach further with a cellphone in terms of signal penetration power than with a coreless, and at the same time have enough bandwidth to carry data and voice.

matticus008 said:
Polycarbonate is more expensive than acrylics or polyethylenes. There goes cost cutting. Polycarbonate is well established in the industry and was intentionally chosen and introduced in the 4G iPod. There go "rushed to market" and "last minute materials." Not using it would lead to an inferior iPod to what we have today. It wouldn't scratch lightly as easily, but it would chip, crack, gouge, and discolor/deform more readily. It would also be less likely to survive a fall and certainly would not survive being run over by a car. If you prefer to give all those things up for fewer (easily removed on polycarbonate, harder to remove on acrylic) scratches, by all means, cast your vote!

Seriously, your posts show a profound lack of comprehension. If you're going to continue to make assertions, make informed posts grounded in reality. That's the only way to have a discussion.

You should really try to think outside the box. Polycarbonate is more expensive than other plastics, Hmmm, since they have been using it since the Cube, maybe you'd think they know it well enough to plan for the future, right ? So say they didn't want the iPod to scratch on purpose, then they made a mistake, in which case the lawsuit has a foothold, and they have a responsibility. If they did know the iPod will have a scratching problem, they should have switched materials, but since their production lines are using the moulding processes specific to polycarbonate and it is more transparent to give a pleasing look, it does cost them less to stick with what they have than to switch.
You speak of apple as if the Nano is the only design they can produce for an iPod. They need not use polycarbonate at all. They can do what they did with the Mini, wrap the thing in aluminum or steel, tough, won't scratch easily, and look stylish. If you are convinced there is no plastic better than polycarbonate for this application (i'd like to see you yet prove this), then please, face the fact that there are other things other than plastics to use for a mp3 player.
 
gunnz said:
Why can't you return it? If it's really scratched up to the point where it's obviously a defect, you can exchange it (for a price of 25 bucks). People want their 25 bucks back, which is partly the reason for the lawsuit.

I was just standing up for the people here who posted earlier claiming that they did have badly scratched Nanos, because I have seen them and am not proud of whoever's idea it was at apple to produce the Nano the way it is. I'm not in this for any personal gain or loss, I have no nano. Probably more subjective this way .
 
SOMEONE TELL ME IF IM WRONG ABOUT THIS the current ipod and ipod nano are different from all the others in that they now have A CLEAR RESIN COATING I dont know what that means but I have herd it from a number of sources.

And this is to matticus.

You have had a number of good arguments and you got me thinking that you might be right for a while. I told my neighbor with a nano to try polishing out some of the hairline scratches (as you suggested). He did, he used clean lint free eye glass cleaning cloth that he went out and got just for the purpose and the DA** and polishing gave it even more scratches:mad: That is called an issue and it is apples fault.
 
This is to all of you who defend the iPod nano scratchiness with various long and sometimes boring essays:

How come my Siemens SX1 mobile phone is virtually scratch free after 2 years of everyday, regular use. The screen covers over half of one side of the device. And yes, it has been in my pockets together with keys, coins, you name it from time to time.

If Siemens can, why cant Apple?

Edit: Its also been dropped several times, bent/strained when in pockets and put under pressure in various scenarios. Still it doesnt exhibit the appearance (no cracks, no chipping, not miscolored etc) as some here claim such device would.
 
Loke said:
This is to all of you who defend the iPod nano scratchiness with various long and sometimes boring essays:

How come my Siemens SX1 mobile phone is virtually scratch free after 2 years of everyday, regular use. The screen covers over half of one side of the device. And yes, it has been in my pockets together with keys, coins, you name it from time to time.

If Siemens can, why cant Apple?

Edit: Its also been dropped several times, bent/strained when in pockets and put under pressure in various scenarios. Still it doesnt exhibit the appearance (no cracks, no chipping, not miscolored etc) as some here claim such device would.
Had a siemens C56 with the screen covering half the body on one side, a A56 that looks the same, and now a sony ericsson walkman phone W800 that has no scratches and I treat my phones like my keys.
 
Maxx Power said:
It would be if it was intentionally designed to be more scratchable.
Now that's just ridiculous. Nobody designs anything with the intention of introducing problems. Apple made a calculation that out of the long list of possible materials, this was the best suited and least problematic. Nothing is perfect. There will always be some weakness or another. It doesn't mean that it was designed to have that weakness.


And i suppose you can change the faceplate of the Nano at ease or will ? Take pride in buying and maintaning items, that's funny. Your ego has to be pretty high for that to glide.
Uh, what does changing the faceplate have to do with anything? Another case of your words getting ahead of you. And people do take pride in maintaining items that are important or valuable to them. Do I even need to explain that? I shouldn't. Do you not have neighbors who wash their cars almost excessively, or people who own just about every cleaning product known to man? Do you know people who neglect expensive items and expect them to keep themselves in top condition? Regular maintenance is part of ownership (and largely why some people continue renting rather than buying a home even when they could afford one).


I saw that Ars article the day it came out, dropped six times ? That's nothing for the polycarbonate, if you rubbed your nano with paper towel twice per day for 1 year, then tell me the scratch isn't excessive.
So now you agree that the nano is durable and tough. Good. The broken screens have already been address, so there's no reason to bring that up. A paper towel is not an appropriate product to use on a nano, but I doubt it would cause the sort of damage you're fantasizing. I don't disagree that there are a lot of posts. But there are also MILLIONS of posts on the internet that say "Mac suck! LOLZ!!!111one"...doesn't make them TRUE statements. If there are so many complaints, why are there ZERO commensurate pictures? This is the last time I'm going to address your nonexistent argument until you provide pictures. Seriously.

Here are several links to places that support the opposite view of the scratch whiners (check Slashdot for hundreds more)
http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.p...nano_hubbub_really_worth_a_class_action_suit/
http://www.blackfriarsinc.com/blog/2005/10/ipod-nano-lawsuit-fighting-is-right.html
http://jackwhispers.blogspot.com/2005/10/parananoia.html
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/156416/
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/nano.ars
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/156606/
http://nanoscratch.com/


The whole point from my perspective is to put an injunction on marketing the nano the way it is, for it is deceiving, and produce further Nanos to resist the scratch bettter than it is now. Not owning a Nano ? Must I be a victim to put my self in other people's shoes ?
Deceived how? Does anything say anywhere that the iPod is scratchproof? Did Steve Jobs say "hey look no scratches 4 ever" when he introduced the model? Does Apple have some sort of marketing campaign involving dragging the iPod through rivers and dirt and across pavement where it comes out in perfect condition? No. There are NO claims about the iPod's resistance to scratches anywhere that have been violated. But since you've got the sympathy pains of a problem you can't see, it's not suprising that you also can't see the answer.

then maybe this lawsuit should bring about a definition for timeline on wear and tear for cosmetics of the Nano. without these guidelines printed and quotable somewhere, you'll just keep on dodging the point.
You missed it again. You can't put a timeline on something with no time-related variables. It's not color fade, surface ablation, battery life, luminescence or any other time-based statistic. Putting a label on it would be impossible.

And you've demonstrated your naiveness. Using additives is common to obtain colour, softness, hardness, etc. Using coatings is common to increase scratch resistance, optical transmission or reflection. I hardly see there being a good reason for not doing something to increase the scratch resistance if vast amounts of technology exists in this field.
Adding hardness to polycarbonate defeats its strengths for which it was selected in the first place. The other additives have nothing to do with this situation. Do you really not read? Also, not that I expect you to see it the second time, either, coatings introduce problems of their own with thermal expansion, potential bonding problems, and chipping. What coating do you suggest? Be specific or don't respond.



You need some basic physics education. Have you looked at FTC's regulated bandwidth of EM waves ? Do you know how tight it is between gaps ? You want to assign cellphones to a different frequency or amplify its signals ? Think about the interference, battery life, and your own tissues.
Exactly. These are all reasons why cell phone signals are the way they are. That does not mean it's not POSSIBLE to change them or to use different ones. It's just not economically feasible to do so in the opinion of the companies involved. There are other options, which you are (correctly) dismissing as inferior at the present time. The same is the case with the choice of materials for the nano. There are other options, but this is the best currently feasible.


You should really try to think outside the box. Polycarbonate is more expensive than other plastics, Hmmm, since they have been using it since the Cube, maybe you'd think they know it well enough to plan for the future, right ? If they did know the iPod will have a scratching problem, they should have switched materials, but since their production lines are using the moulding processes specific to polycarbonate and it is more transparent to give a pleasing look, it does cost them less to stick with what they have than to switch.
The first 3 generations of iPod did NOT use polycarbonate (they used acrylic at least for the first two). Your cursory reading led you to skip over that as well. It has nothing to do with their production lines, because Apple doesn't own its production lines, but contracts out to companies that handle manufacturing for Apple making no difference in cost or complication. That, coupled with their former use of acrylic combine to show that they consciously switched to the new materials and the new design.


You speak of apple as if the Nano is the only design they can produce for an iPod. They need not use polycarbonate at all. They can do what they did with the Mini, wrap the thing in aluminum or steel, tough, won't scratch easily, and look stylish. If you are convinced there is no plastic better than polycarbonate for this application (i'd like to see you yet prove this), then please, face the fact that there are other things other than plastics to use for a mp3 player.
So now you're arguing that the design, which is why people buy it you claim, is not the right design for the nano. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing wrong with the nano's design, and there is no fault on the manufacturer for cosmetic defects caused in normal use. They can't be responsible for what you do to it after you buy it. A good comment I saw was that Jeep's commercials show their SUVs going through a great deal of trauma, but they're always shiny and flawless at the end of the commercial. That is a suggestive use which is not realistic. Apple hasn't made any claims or implications at all, let alone ones on that scale. And any suit on similar grounds against Jeep would be dismissed in an instant.

As for the plastic, that has already been covered in this thread. Polyethylene is too weak, acrylic has numerous disadvantages already named, and that leaves polycarbonate among the major plastics used in electronics. For all of its benefits (also already discussed), the downside to polycarbonate is a surface that is not as scratch-resistant as some other plastics (but it is also superior to several). But the same thing that makes it easier for minor, purely cosmetic surface scratches makes it easier to clean them off. Furthermore, its great strength makes deep gouges and major scratches very difficult...and THAT is what would carry a risk of lost legibility. As it stands, there are ZERO iPods that have been impaired in use by cosmetic scratches caused by or in the possession of owners.

If the nano scratches too easily in your opinion, you should have returned the product and purchased something else. If you didn't decide you didn't like the product until after the 14-day return period, then that's your own fault and no one else's. If you chose not to return the product because of the restocking fee, it's your own fault for buying it at a location with a restocking fee. Not all places that sell iPods charge them, and if you are so opposed to them, you can take your money elsewhere. If you're especially upset about them, you can try to find some legal grounds to sue over the restocking fee. If Apple broke the law with regards to restocking fees, I'd be happy to support that suit. But that's not what this suit is about. It's about greedy opportunism and a ridiculous internet meme not founded in any documented reality.

Please stop making several posts in a row, as well. It makes it difficult to follow.
 
Maxx Power said:
Had a siemens C56 with the screen covering half the body on one side, a A56 that looks the same, and now a sony ericsson walkman phone W800 that has no scratches and I treat my phones like my keys.

I've owned about a dozen (mostly Nokia) phones over the years and all of them get scratched. So now, unless they have replaceable fascias, I buy screen protectors for them before I get them scratched... just like I do with my iPods.
 
matticus008 said:
That's your opinion. All polycarbonate sheeting is coated for scratch resistance. It's not like Apple strips this off, and it's not as high quality a coating as expensive eyeglass lenses for a number of reasons.
But it *does not work*. I said the nano should offer even a modicum of scratch resistance against the rigors of normal use, but it does not. If you're uncertain what "modicum" means, please look it up.

However, "normal use" does NOT mean that a product should be invulnerable to normal wear and tear, which is exactly what you are asking for.
Invulnerable? Who said invulnerable? I said it should offer even a modicum of scratch resistance against normal wear and tear. Scratches are so easy to produce on the nano that in 2 days its appearance becomes tarnished.

Do you own any other portable electronics device whose appearance gets tarnished after 2 days of normal use? I certainly don't.

Unless your nano doesn't work, you've got no cause for compensation. You can be unhappy about it, fine, but it's not Apple's job to give you money for it.
I am not the one asking for money. I'm not involved in the lawsuit. I am on a 5-month business trip in Taiwan where, during normal use, my nano became covered with scratches.

Otherwise, why even have a concept of "wear and tear?" Why have a polish and cleaning market for plastics that existed long before the nano and will exist long after it's gone?
If scratches accumulated SLOWLY on the nano, taking years to accumulate 100 scratches, I would be OK. But my nano accumulated 100+ scratches in just a few days. A scratch here and a scratch there might be okay, but 100 scratches?

Similarly, I own a BMW 545i which cost me...well, you can figure out how much a loaded 545i costs...and it is subject to normal wear and tear. It has accumulated just a few scratches after 18 months of ownership. In fact it has only about 10 or 15 very small scratches sparsely located, mostly on the front end. These scratches HAVE NOT TARNISHED the appearance of my car.

If my 545i was a scratch magnate and broke out into a hive of scratches after the first week whereas my friend's Camry or Lexus or Mercedes or Audi developed NO scratches after the same period of time, do you think I would be dissatisfied to say the least?

Now you will tell me that I should shut up because the scratches on my BMW DO NOT IMPAIR functionality of the car. The car still drives, right? Yes it does. The car's electronics and fancy gadgets still work, right? Sure they do.

So why would I be dissatisfied? Simple. Because in this hypothetical case my BMW would be accumulating scratches at a rate that is disproportionate to other comparable items and these scratches are ruining its appearance.

Of course my car still runs, of course its gadgets still work, but THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE, although after another few weeks my nano's screen might be too scratched up to be easily readable, and then its functionality will be impaired.

I have also stated that I am babying the nano in order to stop or at least slow down the rate of appearance-decay, but I wish the nano had been scratch resistant to at least a practical degree, and if a sleeve is that important, one should have been included in the box. The new iPod (video) comes with a carrying sleeve; this means Apple is now acknowledging that iPods really need one. If they did not need a sleeve, there would not be a sleeve in every box.

No, it's not just opinion. No scratch has yet to interfere with the function of the music player, and therefore there has yet to be a warranted claim against the functionality or durability of the device.
If the hypothetical BMW case stated above were true, don't you think every such owner would be upset at BMW?

You say the scratching is disproportionate to everything in YOUR experience, which is YOUR opinion and may be true in your experience, but no nano has yet been demonstrated to have an outrageous number of scratches for being made of plastic.
What other portable consumer electronics device you own has had its appearance tarnished in just 2 days of normal use? Name it. If the scratches on my nano took 2 or 3 years to accumulate, I would not be complaining, but these scratches accumulated in just days.

I'm sorry, but your scratches, highly exaggerated by your images, are still not severe enough that you can claim to have a problem.
I don't think we're communicating any more.

Use one of the available polishing products, and your nano will look great again.
I will polish it when I return to the U.S.

Nothing's perfect. As you said, they can improve the look. For a cost per application of a few cents, expecting more is unrealistic.
Hogwash. If my BMW accumulated scratches at a disproportionate rate, I would be very dissatisfied.

Polish it every few months, and it will continue to work perfectly well for a long time to come.
It hasn't even been 1 month and it's covered with scratches! I will have to polish it every few days. And this is disproportionate and unrealistic to expect a customer to do.

like expecting the soles of your shoes not to wear down if you walk in them.
It seems you still don't get it.

I'll do it for you. iPod technology uses polycarbonate, to/against which harder materials are inherently capable of scratching. There is no way to get around this, it's just standard physics.
Bad analogy. Polycarbonate is NOT the only material available to Apple from which to make a successful iPod. The mini was the most successful iPod and it was made from anodized aluminum.

However, cell phone companies HAVE TO USE the EM band set aside by the FCC for consumer mobile communication. Can you give them an alternative technology for wireless? I'd like to see that!

Cell phones could use stronger signals, but they don't. They could use a lower frequency for better range, but they don't. But you're willing to accept that as a technical limitation. My radio works inside my house, so should my cell phone. You can't take opposite sides.
My mobile phone works inside my house and inside my office. However, there were deadspots a year ago which have been fixed. My phone company (Cingular) listened to my complaints about deadspots, acknowledged that those deadspots existed and had been reported by others, and told me they're working to improve coverage in those areas. And they lived up to their promises.
 
ksz said:
But it *does not work*. I said the nano should offer even a modicum of scratch resistance against the rigors of normal use, but it does not. If you're uncertain what "modicum" means, please look it up.
Having yet to see a nano horribly disfigured and destroyed by scratches, and having my own nano in perfectly reasonable condition for not being protected, I'm not inclined to believe that the nano is lacking in a fundamental way its resistance to scratching. Judging by the fact that it has superior scratch resistance to many CDs, I believe the nano has more than a cursory level of scratch protection. I have worked with many softer plastics and know that polycarbonate is not sitting at the bottom. Compared to the standard laundry list of plastic weaknesses, frankly this is the one I'd most want. Perhaps you'd choose a different weakness...but there will always be some sort of deficiency, and since all plastic scratches and the difference in sensitivity at the high end is not dramatically large, any other deficiency would be worse and it still wouldn't be scratchproof.

Do you own any other portable electronics device whose appearance gets tarnished after 2 days of normal use? I certainly don't.
I don't own any device whose appearance is flawless after a short period of time, nor do I own any device, all iPods included, that I could define as criminally or disproportionately tarnished after such a time. The worst condition of anything I own after the shortest period of time was a pair of Fossil sunglasses which got scratched in my glove compartment after less than two hours. Runner up would be my car, which came with a number of small and faint scratches and collected some minor paint damage on the way home from where I purchased it (it was a 90 minute drive).


If scratches accumulated SLOWLY on the nano, taking years to accumulate 100 scratches, I would be OK. But my nano accumulated 100+ scratches in just a few days. A scratch here and a scratch there might be okay, but 100 scratches?
There's no time factor involved. Honestly. It's all about the environment and the conditions. And furthermore I know of nothing, save my most expensive watch, that took years to scratch. And even that "scratchproof" watch has a small scrape from a run in with a computer part.

These scratches HAVE NOT TARNISHED the appearance of my car.
And if they had, you would have to live with it, so count yourself lucky on the car and not so lucky on the iPod.

If my 545i was a scratch magnate and broke out into a hive of scratches after the first week whereas my friend's Camry or Lexus or Mercedes or Audi developed NO scratches after the same period of time, do you think I would be dissatisfied to say the least?
Sure, dissatisfied, possibly even angry. But you're also talking about something that's easily double the price of a Camry. By that logic, there would have to be something half the price of the nano with similar function and features in order to be upset about the nano over any other product of the same type. That is not the case, so the "premium" tactic doesn't apply. And you probably want to look up "magnate" since this is at least the third time you've misused it. Meanwhile, my dictionary continues to collect dust.

So why would I be dissatisfied? Simple. Because in this hypothetical case my BMW would be accumulating scratches at a rate that is disproportionate to other comparable items and these scratches are ruining its appearance.
Dissatisfied fine, but entitled to nothing in the way of compensation.

If the hypothetical BMW case stated above were true, don't you think every such owner would be upset at BMW?
Sure they would be upset. One or two might even try to sue and possibly demand a share of BMW's profits. But they'd be entitled to nothing, and aside from being upset, life goes on and BMW continues to sell the exact same car.


What other portable consumer electronics device you own has had its appearance tarnished in just 2 days of normal use? Name it. If the scratches on my nano took 2 or 3 years to accumulate, I would not be complaining, but these scratches accumulated in just days.
Your scratches are not inconsistent with several months of use. It's unfortunate that they occured sooner rather than later, but the time factor is random. The abrasion factor is not. I don't have any device, including my nano, which today became two nanos, which I consider to be heavily damaged within two days. That said, I have seen people inexplicably damage something brand new, and myself have had $75 sunglasses damaged within hours, left in a glove compartment that I thought to be clean. I was upset, but sometimes that happens. If people talked about sunglasses or watches that often, I'm sure I could find plenty of people on the internet to say "hey! me too! what's up with that?" about scratches from nowhere.


Bad analogy. Polycarbonate is NOT the only material available to Apple from which to make a successful iPod. The mini was the most successful iPod and it was made from anodized aluminum.
The nano is fast taking its place. They went with a different design. Although transparent aluminum may be available now, I don't think for a second that it fits the design of the nano. If you don't like the design, there are plenty of alternatives. And if your nano really scratched that much after two days, why not return it? If the restocking charge was more valuable to you than the iPod's appearance, you've just put an extremely small value on aesthetics and shouldn't be anywhere near this upset.


However, cell phone companies HAVE TO USE the EM band set aside by the FCC for consumer mobile communication. Can you give them an alternative technology for wireless? I'd like to see that!
But there are other EM bands they could have chosen from, and to think that there wasn't an extensive discussion before adopting them would be foolish. Another EM band could provide a longer range, or a higher data rate, but for whatever factors, they chose these specifically. No different with the nano. There are many slightly different characteristics, all very similar overall, but this was the one deemed best, all things considered.

My mobile phone works inside my house and inside my office. However, there were deadspots a year ago which have been fixed. My phone company (Cingular) listened to my complaints about deadspots, acknowledged that those deadspots existed and had been reported by others, and told me they're working to improve coverage in those areas. And they lived up to their promises.
Fine. But you didn't try to sue them over it, and although your dead spot may be gone, there are thousands or millions more. People have been complaining about problems with plastic for a long time, and the materials industry is working on it. They've made some impressive improvements, but they're not done yet, just like Cingular. Suing them won't really help matters when they're already working on the problem. As soon as better materials are in the pipeline, Apple will use them. They have a good track record of keeping up with the best that's available to them. Nobody sued them when they didn't produce a 3.0 GHz PowerMac in over a year, and in that case, Jobs even said so. They don't need to sue to draw attention to an issue, because it's already known that plastic scratches. Glass breaks, but sometimes it's still better than plastic, judged by the engineers behind a given product. Iron rusts. It's an obvious shortcoming that can affect appearance (and integrity, if sufficiently bad). But people don't sue when it happens (unless it affects integrity, and even then they must prove that they actively took reasonable care of the item rather than simply watch it rust away until it was bad enough to sue).

You have every right to be upset about your nano. But one simply doesn't have the right to accuse Apple of foul play or to demand compensation unless their choice of material makes the product unsafe or unuseable. For aesthetic concerns, your wallet is the court.
 
Replies

To the guy who asked if I could take the nano back within 14 days, my Girlfriend only bought it to my attention recently as she was embarassed that she was damaging a gift but after it got pretty bad she showed me and showed me how she had been storing it.

Thats when I returned it to the Apple Store london and the assistant told me "We will not exhange ipod nanos because of scratches" he even mentioned "people think we will exchange them because of lies printed by the BBC and Which magazine, we will not"

Thats when I looked into the whole thing online and found all these other unhappy people.

To the guy arguing with Maticcus, I wouldn't bother - he seems completely closed to other opionions and seems to regard this thread as a debating exercise where all that matters is winning the argument.
 
Azbola said:
To the guy arguing with Maticcus, I wouldn't bother - he seems completely closed to other opionions and seems to regard this thread as a debating exercise where all that matters is winning the argument.
I have no problem with people of the opinion that the nano scratches easily or being disappointed that their recent purchase is no longer in a museum-quality condition. I have a problem with people taking such an opinion as the sole platform to make a serious legal accusation against an individual or a company for the purposes of monetary gain.

In this discussion, I'm not interested in dealing with opinions. Neither is the court. I'm interested in dealing in fact, and am making a deliberate effort to find facts about this case, and yet all that continues to pour in is purely conjectural opinion. In the search for concrete evidence of the alleged harm(s), there has been none to find yet, and that this thread continues onward without those essential facts is troubling to me.

Basing what amounts to a major civil (or criminal, in the case of implied fraud) accusation on not so much as a single harm-demonstrating photo reflects a very grave lack of respect for all parties involved, and I'm shocked that people who take lawsuits so wantonly can think that they're not part of the problem with the system. People need to stand up to causes they find important. Doing so pretty much killed President Wilson, but I'm hoping I fare better.

The bottom line is that people who are affected by this "problem" all claim it occured within days, yet many failed to return the nano, pay the restocking fee, and then seek reimbursement for that fee via customer support, a formal written complaint, and then, failing those, legal action if they felt the restocking fee broke some sort of law. That kind of legal action or formal complaint would at least be rational, even if Apple won the suit, which it would have a good chance of doing. But these customers did not take the appropriate steps to remedy the situation.
 
Azbola said:
To the guy arguing with Maticcus, I wouldn't bother - he seems completely closed to other opionions and seems to regard this thread as a debating exercise where all that matters is winning the argument.

Just re-reading this it sounds a bit arsey towards Maticcus to which I apologise, he does make good points particularly about the court case, but refuses to accept that the product itself it worse than other similar sized and quality products which I believe it patently is.
 
Doh!

Cant beleive I posted an apology just as you were posting a reply, what bad timing on my part!
 
Azbola said:
To the guy arguing with Maticcus, I wouldn't bother - he seems completely closed to other opionions and seems to regard this thread as a debating exercise where all that matters is winning the argument.
I agree! He only seems interested now in winning an argument and saving face. His arguments and replies are becoming increasingly academic and he cannot fathom a simple idea that the iPods scratch very easily and their appearance gets tarnished in days with normal use. He does not think that cosmetic damage in 2 days is relevant.
 
matticus008 said:
The bottom line is that people who are affected by this "problem" all claim it occured within days, yet failed to return the nano, pay the restocking fee, and then seek reimbursement for that fee via customer support, a formal written complaint,...
All such people failed to return the nano or pay a restocking fee? Your facts are already miserably twisted. You have no hope of finding the truth!

In my case I had a colleague in California buy two 4GB nanos for me and bring them to Taiwan on his next flight, but others did return, including Azbola who posted just before me.
 
ksz said:
All such people failed to return the nano or pay a restocking fee? Your facts are already miserably twisted. You have no hope of finding the truth!

In my case I had a colleague in California buy two 4GB nanos for me and bring them to Taiwan on his next flight, but others did return, including Azbola who posted just before me.
No, the rules of parallelism apply. The "all" modifies just "claim." It doesn't modify the subsequent section of the sentence. But just as a show of good will, I'll change it for you.
 
matticus008 said:
In this discussion, I'm not interested in dealing with opinions. Neither is the court. I'm interested in dealing in fact, and am making a deliberate effort to find facts about this case, and yet all that continues to pour in is purely conjectural opinion.

Basing what amounts to a major civil (or criminal, in the case of implied fraud) accusation on not so much as a single harm-demonstrating photo reflects a very grave lack of respect for all parties involved, and I'm shocked that people who take lawsuits so wantonly can think that they're not part of the problem with the system.

This is where I believe you are wrong. If or when this case do appear in court, it will be VERY relevant how Apples portable device compare to other similar portable devices with regards to wear and tear. If it can be demonstrated, that Apples portable device is subject to much more scratching than whats normal for portable devices, they can also build a case that the nano is inferiour in design.

When such cases appear in court, it has always been relevant how a product compare to other similar devices. In this regard, I think Apple has got a problem legal-wise. But we'll see.

OTOH: I dont think its right that people are suing for anything else than Apple fixing the problem, BUT that is another discussion really.
 
Loke said:
This is where I believe you are wrong. If or when this case do appear in court, it will be VERY relevant how Apples portable device compare to other similar portable devices with regards to wear and tear. If it can be demonstrated, that Apples portable device is subject to much more scratching than whats normal for portable devices, they can also build a case that the nano is inferiour in design.

When such cases appear in court, it has always been relevant how a product compare to other similar devices. In this regard, I think Apple has got a problem legal-wise. But we'll see.

OTOH: I dont think its right that people are suing for anything else than Apple fixing the problem, BUT that is another discussion really.
Suits are very specific, so unless the original filing contains a statement (it may, in which case you're absolutely correct, but I don't recall) to the effect of the iPod not meeting the same standards as a competitor, then they can't win damages under that provision. You may only assess alleged harms in a given case. It must say specifically that the iPod is inferior to competitors, or it can't be tried in court. That's why lawyers wiggle around wording so much. It can save them. It doesn't say anything about the restocking fee being unjust or illegal, for example, so that can't be used as a factor.

Same thing when bills fail in legislation. They don't fail to get passed because they're bad ideas, just disagreeable representation, a suspect clause, or a sneaky rider attachment.
 
matticus008 said:
No, the rules of parallelism apply. The "all" modifies just "claim." It doesn't modify the subsequent section of the sentence. But just as a show of good will, I'll change it for you.
The change you made is not for good will, but for a real error correction. Your original sentence as quoted in my previous reply clearly states that all who make the scratch claim do not return the nano, pay the restocking fee, or otherwise file a complaint. You therefore corrected an error in your statement -- your claim of good will is wrong and is just a face-saving statement. As I stated, your arguments now are increasingly academic.
 
matticus008 said:
Having yet to see a nano horribly disfigured and destroyed by scratches,
Horribly disfigured and destroyed by scratches? How do you define "horribly disfigured" and "destroyed by scratches"? Do you mean the nano is warped into a figure-8, hence "disfigured"? Do you mean the nano is torn to shreds, hence "destroyed" by scratches? You are using extreme terms in an argumentative manner which serves only to digress.

and having my own nano in perfectly reasonable condition for not being protected, I'm not inclined to believe that the nano is lacking in a fundamental way its resistance to scratching.
So just because your nano has not suffered the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune it must mean that no one else has any legitimate reason to think that the nano is highly prone to scratching and that such scratching tarnishes its surface within days? If what happened to my nano happened to yours, I suspect you would be playing a different tune.

Judging by the fact that it has superior scratch resistance to many CDs, I believe the nano has more than a cursory level of scratch protection.
You can believe whatever you want, but if FACTS are what you're interested in, you need to consider that the nano may not have the level of scratch protection you seem to think it does...or at least NOT ALL of them. If several batches of nanos are flawed, then there is a flaw Apple must acknowledge and correct.

I have worked with many softer plastics and know that polycarbonate is not sitting at the bottom. Compared to the standard laundry list of plastic weaknesses, frankly this is the one I'd most want. Perhaps you'd choose a different weakness...but there will always be some sort of deficiency, and since all plastic scratches and the difference in sensitivity at the high end is not dramatically large, any other deficiency would be worse and it still wouldn't be scratchproof.
An example of an academic response with little bearing on the issue at hand. I am only concerned about the high scratchability of the nano and that it took 2 days to tarnish its appearance under normal use conditions. No other portable electronics device I own or have owned has decayed so poorly and so quickly.

I don't own any device whose appearance is flawless after a short period of time, nor do I own any device, all iPods included, that I could define as criminally or disproportionately tarnished after such a time. The worst condition of anything I own after the shortest period of time was a pair of Fossil sunglasses which got scratched in my glove compartment after less than two hours. Runner up would be my car, which came with a number of small and faint scratches and collected some minor paint damage on the way home from where I purchased it (it was a 90 minute drive).
And what if you got stuck with an iPod nano that got scratched up in 2 days whereas nothing else you ever owned decayed as badly and as quickly? Would you characterize that nano as having defective workmanship?

There's no time factor involved. Honestly. It's all about the environment and the conditions. And furthermore I know of nothing, save my most expensive watch, that took years to scratch. And even that "scratchproof" watch has a small scrape from a run in with a computer part.
I think you are very very wrong here. A time factor is relevant. A time factor is in fact extremely relevant. Why do warranties expire after 90 days? A device whose appearance tarnishes in 2 days with normal use whereas no other similar device decays as badly and as quickly is grounds for real concern and, in my view, is to be considered flawed.

Sure, dissatisfied, possibly even angry. But you're also talking about something that's easily double the price of a Camry. By that logic, there would have to be something half the price of the nano with similar function and features in order to be upset about the nano over any other product of the same type. That is not the case, so the "premium" tactic doesn't apply.
No no, the point is this: If even a Camry at half the price (actually closer to 1/3 the price) of the BMW scratched MUCH LESS, then I would consider the BMW shell to be flawed and/or defective.

And you probably want to look up "magnate" since this is at least the third time you've misused it. Meanwhile, my dictionary continues to collect dust.
Sorry, delusions of grandeur. Magnet it is, happy now? :)

Dissatisfied fine, but entitled to nothing in the way of compensation.
Disagree. Entitled to a replacement or full money back with NO RESTOCKING FEE.

Sure they would be upset. One or two might even try to sue and possibly demand a share of BMW's profits. But they'd be entitled to nothing, and aside from being upset, life goes on and BMW continues to sell the exact same car.
Disagree again. Word of mouth would travel and soon BMW would be facing a bewildering reduction in sales. I say bewildering because they might still be scratching (bad pun) their heads wondering where the flaw is.

Your scratches are not inconsistent with several months of use. It's unfortunate that they occured sooner rather than later, but the time factor is random.
Disagree again. The time factor is NOT random. Others are continuing to post the same experiences. Please check your facts and do pull that dusty dictionary off the shelf and look up "random".

The abrasion factor is not. I don't have any device, including my nano, which today became two nanos, which I consider to be heavily damaged within two days.
You are once again basing your argument only on your own immediate experience. What of the postings by all those in this and similar threads who are long time Apple customers, love the iPod, own several iPods, and yet find this particular one to be highly scratch-prone? You do think they suffer from mass delusion?

That said, I have seen people inexplicably damage something brand new, and myself have had $75 sunglasses damaged within hours, left in a glove compartment that I thought to be clean.
"Inexplicably" is a very convenient word, isn't it? It places the blame on THEM. This might be true in many cases, but don't blindly extrapolate that to this case.

I was upset, but sometimes that happens. If people talked about sunglasses or watches that often, I'm sure I could find plenty of people on the internet to say "hey! me too! what's up with that?" about scratches from nowhere.
Scratches from nowhere? You continue to deny that a problem exists.

The nano is fast taking its place. They went with a different design. Although transparent aluminum may be available now, I don't think for a second that it fits the design of the nano. If you don't like the design, there are plenty of alternatives.
I see, so now it's "take it or leave it". This is a continued stubborn denial that a problem exists.

And if your nano really scratched that much after two days, why not return it?
Because I am in Taiwan on a long business trip.

If the restocking charge was more valuable to you than the iPod's appearance, you've just put an extremely small value on aesthetics and shouldn't be anywhere near this upset.
I am not upset. I am dissatisfied with the nano's scratchability and disappointed with Apple in this regard. I think you are upset at people who dare claim there might be a flaw in the nano...and mainly because the problem has not affected you. So if it has not affected you, you don't care about those who have been affected. You would rather call them delusional and careless.

But there are other EM bands they could have chosen from, and to think that there wasn't an extensive discussion before adopting them would be foolish. Another EM band could provide a longer range, or a higher data rate, but for whatever factors, they chose these specifically.
In order to digitize and transmit audio and data at acceptable rates AND allow hundreds or thousands of callers to be using their phones at the same time, you need high-frequencies and a multiplexing scheme. So although shortwave radio has the benefit of distance, it suffers in bandwidth and transmission through various mediums. Shortwave can be reflected by objects and the atmosphere, whereas high-frequency EM passes right through. This limits the range of acceptable frequencies.

No different with the nano. There are many slightly different characteristics, all very similar overall, but this was the one deemed best, all things considered.
Not the same thing. The choice of EM band is a fundamental technological design decision, not a cosmetic one. There are many more choices for cosmetics than for core technology.

You have every right to be upset about your nano. But one simply doesn't have the right to accuse Apple of foul play or to demand compensation unless their choice of material makes the product unsafe or unuseable. For aesthetic concerns, your wallet is the court.
Ok, you're making sense here. And again, I am not upset, merely dissatisfied with my nano's fragility and disappointed with Apple in their refusal to acknowledge a problem. Charging a restocking fee is ludicrous. Would I pay Apple another $25 or $35 (I don't recall what it is since I'm not in the US now) to take back what I consider to be a flawed unit? No way.
 
Restocking fee?

Just to clarify, in the London Apple Store no-one has ever mentioned a restocking fee - they just say "we will not replace ipods due to scratching".

I have no idea if this is because it is after the 14 day thing as no-one at the shop has ever mentioned this either.
 
ksz said:
Ok, you're making sense here. And again, I am not upset, merely dissatisfied with my nano's fragility and disappointed with Apple in their refusal to acknowledge a problem. Charging a restocking fee is ludicrous. Would I pay Apple another $25 or $35 (I don't recall what it is since I'm not in the US now) to take back what I consider to be a flawed unit? No way.

One small point. If you can't show monitary damange I don't see how your case will be very sucessful. Your mitigated damaged due to the problem with the nano would be $0 ( since you still have and use the device ). At this point you must prove fraud or malfesence(sp?) in order to move forward with your case. You can't really claim that apple engeneered them with a lifespan since the battery already does that! Neglangance alone may not be enough to get damages above and beyond mitigated damages. ( IANAL )

Which brings me to my point with the nano/iPod with video. I am withlding judement until one thing is proven. That they intentionally changed the formulation of the case IN ORDER TO reduce scratch resistance.

I think what's happeneing is that as looking at the device is becoming more important, the color display, the black casing, and the size of the diplay AS A PERCENTAGE OF DEVICE SIZE have all comt together to make people more aware of scratches that the device has ALWAYS gotten.
 
matticus008 said:
I have no problem with people of the opinion that the nano scratches easily or being disappointed that their recent purchase is no longer in a museum-quality condition. I have a problem with people taking such an opinion as the sole platform to make a serious legal accusation against an individual or a company for the purposes of monetary gain.

In this discussion, I'm not interested in dealing with opinions. Neither is the court. I'm interested in dealing in fact, and am making a deliberate effort to find facts about this case, and yet all that continues to pour in is purely conjectural opinion. In the search for concrete evidence of the alleged harm(s), there has been none to find yet, and that this thread continues onward without those essential facts is troubling to me.

Basing what amounts to a major civil (or criminal, in the case of implied fraud) accusation on not so much as a single harm-demonstrating photo reflects a very grave lack of respect for all parties involved, and I'm shocked that people who take lawsuits so wantonly can think that they're not part of the problem with the system. People need to stand up to causes they find important. Doing so pretty much killed President Wilson, but I'm hoping I fare better.

The bottom line is that people who are affected by this "problem" all claim it occured within days, yet many failed to return the nano, pay the restocking fee, and then seek reimbursement for that fee via customer support, a formal written complaint, and then, failing those, legal action if they felt the restocking fee broke some sort of law. That kind of legal action or formal complaint would at least be rational, even if Apple won the suit, which it would have a good chance of doing. But these customers did not take the appropriate steps to remedy the situation.

How do you have access to lawsuit data ? I don't know how many people are getting evil gains from this, but then, Apple would be the one who made this possible.
 
matticus008 said:
In this discussion, I'm not interested in dealing with opinions. Neither is the court. I'm interested in dealing in fact, and am making a deliberate effort to find facts about this case, and yet all that continues to pour in is purely conjectural opinion. In the search for concrete evidence of the alleged harm(s), there has been none to find yet, and that this thread continues onward without those essential facts is troubling to me.

Your facts ? Everyone else here has been talking about facts, how similar products or cellphones don't scratch easily, so there must be alternatives for the faceplate, how apple foreseen this scratching issue and made it impossible for you to return a Nano if it has scratches, how even one particular Apple store clerk (won't mention her name) was interviewed on that one guy's website about cracking and brittle screens and assured the rest of us that Apple knows, and the employee knows, and it is obvious if you played with a Nano, that the Nano scratches easily, and much easier than the competition. The fact how it is physically possible to use different materials, since they have done it in the past, other companies have done this with whatever products they produced. How it is a fact that the Nano ads makes no mention of the scratchability while it does say the battery holds limited charge cycles. How it is a fact that the lawsuit is the first step toward revealing to all the people who by now only have seen the Nano ad and thus can not make informed decisions. How it is also a fact that just a few posts back someone took your advice and rubbed the screen with polish with a special lens cleaner lint free cloth and wind up with more scratches than before. You have your facts, Matticus, you cherry picked them.
 
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