iPod touch ipod touch tracks location!

[brian9271]

no, because it would give away my location. why don't you try it for yourself? wouldn't this be why the 'find location' button stays lit up when you press it?

Well, I turned off my Wifi, then I tried find location, and it didn't work, but um, I may be wrong, because I turned off my Wifi, instead of actually going to the streets, and also, about the location, I meant why don't you try it when you're in the car, and actually record a video, since you don't want to give out your location, it doesn't have to be your home, it can be anywhere, just record a video

 

[macfanboy]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 2_0 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/525.18.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.1.1 Mobile/5A347 Safari/525.20)

no, because it would give away my location. why don't you try it for yourself? wouldn't this be why the 'find location' button stays lit up when you press it?

Well, I turned off my Wifi, then I tried find location, and it didn't work, but um, I may be wrong, because I turned off my Wifi, instead of actually going to the streets, and also, about the location, I meant why don't you try it when you're in the car, and actually record a video, since you don't want to give out your location, it doesn't have to be your home, it can be anywhere, just record a video

turning off wifi will not work. Keep it on but disconnect from your network. Believe it or not, it's 2 different things

 

[cakbar]

Macfanboy speaks the truth. I just tested this by going for a walk with Wifi turned on. Even although I didn't have a network connection, it continued to locate me. Since I live in an urban area, I suspect that it can locate whenever there is any Wifi network available, even if you don't connect to it. I would assume however, that it would be unable to show you a map of where you are, if you ventured outside the range of whatever map area you have saved, since you would need an internet connection to download new map data. Even in a car, I would think it would be possible to locate you as it would briefly pick up wifi signals from surrounding areas. Nice little bonus to the Maps app.

 

[chickenselects]

Macfanboy speaks the truth. I just tested this by going for a walk with Wifi turned on. Even although I didn't have a network connection, it continued to locate me. Since I live in an urban area, I suspect that it can locate whenever there is any Wifi network available, even if you don't connect to it. I would assume however, that it would be unable to show you a map of where you are, if you ventured outside the range of whatever map area you have saved, since you would need an internet connection to download new map data. Even in a car, I would think it would be possible to locate you as it would briefly pick up wifi signals from surrounding areas. Nice little bonus to the Maps app.

I can confirm this as well and also stayed inside the cached map on my ipod touch. Probably grabs the IP from wi-fi networks when it checks to see whats out there (even without joining them) and figures out roughly where you are.

 

[drummerbooker14]

Macfanboy speaks the truth. I just tested this by going for a walk with Wifi turned on. Even although I didn't have a network connection, it continued to locate me. Since I live in an urban area, I suspect that it can locate whenever there is any Wifi network available, even if you don't connect to it. I would assume however, that it would be unable to show you a map of where you are, if you ventured outside the range of whatever map area you have saved, since you would need an internet connection to download new map data. Even in a car, I would think it would be possible to locate you as it would briefly pick up wifi signals from surrounding areas. Nice little bonus to the Maps app.

i guess you have to start with a connection to get your location, maps doesnt do anything while i don't.

 

[Cleverboy]

SkyHook
http://www.skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/

Skyhook's hybrid positioning system (XPS) is a software-only location solution that allows any mobile device with Wi-Fi, GPS or a cellular radio (GSM/CDMA) to determine its position with an accuracy of 10 to 20 meters. Unlike other hybrid location solutions, XPS uses land-based Wi-Fi access points, GPS satellites and cellular towers to determine location information. The XPS platform provides a fast, accurate and reliable location source to mobile applications and services by leveraging the strengths of each underlying position technology.

The mapping application launches the XPS client engine, which then scans the area for signals from Wi-Fi access points (APs), GPS satellites and cellular towers. XPS uses the unique "signature" of each Wi-Fi access point, the Cell ID of nearby towers and GPS to arrive at a precise location (within 10m to 20m). The entire process takes roughly 100-150 milliseconds on mobile devices. The corresponding location result is then fed directly to the map navigation application, resulting in an improved user-experience.

If you turn OFF your Wi-Fi support, iPod Touch won't be able to give you a location (though your iPhone might, using cell tower data). If you leave your iPod Touch on, and the information available via your Wi-Fi radio returns a valid set of results, it will. Read how this is done at the link above. Apple has partnered with SkyHook to provide this service.

To be clear, you DO NOT NEED TO BE USING any particular Wi-Fi access point for SkyHook's data to be able to use its unique signature (along with the others in your immediate area) to determine your location. You simply need to have your Wi-Fi service in your device turned ON (so that it is collecting the raw data in the first place).

Unfortunately, this thread is otherwise filled with a dizzying amount of misinformation and half-truths.

Hope that helps,
~ CB

 

[techage14]

SkyHook
http://www.skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/

If you turn OFF your Wi-Fi support, iPod Touch won't be able to give you a location (though your iPhone might, using cell tower data). If you leave your iPod Touch on, and the information available via your Wi-Fi radio returns a valid set of results, it will. Read how this is done at the link above. Apple has partnered with SkyHook to provide this service.

To be clear, you DO NOT NEED TO BE USING any particular Wi-Fi access point for SkyHook's data to be able to use its unique signature (along with the others in your immediate area) to determine your location. You simply need to have your Wi-Fi service in your device turned ON (so that it is collecting the raw data in the first place).

Unfortunately, this thread is otherwise filled with a dizzying amount of misinformation and half-truths.

Hope that helps,
~ CB

So far, I've not been having any luck trying to find my triangulation with my iPod touch. I disconnect from my main network and see if maps will locate me using other Wi-Fi networks around but, it doesn't. I'm still a skeptic of this. But, if it works for you, more power to you.

 

[Cleverboy]

So far, I've not been having any luck trying to find my triangulation with my iPod touch. I disconnect from my main network and see if maps will locate me using other Wi-Fi networks around but, it doesn't. I'm still a skeptic of this. But, if it works for you, more power to you.

With all due respect, there is ZERO room for "skepticism" here. Google "apple skyhook", and read up on this. Jobs said this in his keynote in January.

What you're experiencing is the simple fact that while SkyHook may have compiled the most comprehensive database of longitudinal and latitudinal mappings of Wi-Fi access points, its data is only as complete as its resources are. Moreover, if you simply do not HAVE Wi-Fi access points near you, that will also grant you minimal success getting your location. The Wi-Fi method is no where near as successful as the cell tower triangulation method, from what I gather. Cell phone towers are simply more plentiful than mapped (or even unmapped) Wi-Fi access points, by the nature and size of the business.

The moment anyone starts questioning the readily demonstrable veracity of basic facts, is the moment you know a given discussion isn't really targeting understanding as much as it is devolving into rampant speculation and superstition. I honestly think this forum on average is better than that, despite its moniker. 😉

~ CB

 

[tremlock]

this worked for me also in the car today, until I switched over to music mode on the way home. Drove from Cleveland Ohio to Akron Ohio. Worked all the way down and back til I switched to music mode

 

[dasikes]

Huh. I'll have to try this out!

 

[macfanboy]

picture proves no wifi, but i have location. grayed out area is just the lack of the map image due to no wifi. i pre-downloaded some areas on the map and took screenshots, but i purposely upload those (obviously due to security reasons)

 

[macfanboy]

i guess you have to start with a connection to get your location, maps doesnt do anything while i don't.

you do not need the internet to start the tracking; i can confirm this. (sorry for double post)

 

[fake1009]

okay if you don't need to start with a location can you start without triangulating your location? My home is not recognized by Skyhook so will it work if I am in a residential area and just randomly turn on the locator? Furthermore does the locator only work with unlocked networks?

 

[Cleverboy]

okay if you don't need to start with a location can you start without triangulating your location? My home is not recognized by Skyhook so will it work if I am in a residential area and just randomly turn on the locator? Furthermore does the locator only work with unlocked networks?

Each WiFi access point contains a set of information that is as unique as the proverbial "fingerprint". This is data that your phone collects regardless of whether or not it actually connects to that Wi-Fi access point and begins getting Internet service.

The only problem is that although (if the available information successfully returns location data) you won't be able to see where you are... the blue circle will be on top of a grid-lined empty space (as the mapping images would need to be retrieved via an Internet connection). The short form answer would be, "YES" you can get your location from WiFi access points, even without connecting to them... but why would you even want to when you can't see where you are?

This only serves to help if you already got your location and directions when you had a connection, and then attempted to update your current location as you drove around. The cached data would be able to give you your visual cues in relation to the new location provided without an Internet connection.

~ CB

 

[dasikes]

Confirmed, but....

Yes, it CAN track you via WiFi. However, the "tracking" is far from real-time. It is a slow, impractical following, and the blue "location" circle is so wide, and covers such a general location that it is totally unreliable.

Also, unless you are connected to these WiFi connections, you will be unable to load the map, so all you see is a blue circle and a gray grid.

Don't expect this to be useful or practical, for it is neither.

 

[dasikes]

okay if you don't need to start with a location can you start without triangulating your location? My home is not recognized by Skyhook so will it work if I am in a residential area and just randomly turn on the locator? Furthermore does the locator only work with unlocked networks?

No, you do not have to be connected to the networks for them to be used.

 

[ervabu]

The only place that I've seen this work was standing in my driveway. I took it along to breakfast today and tried updating at a few red lights.... no sauce.

 

[sseelman]

Here is my impression of this.

I have never heard anything from Apple that says that Skyhook was meant to be used on the iPod touch. It certainly must be there in the touch 2.0 software, if there are scattered reports of intermittent location services working. But, I think the reality is that Skyhook is not really implemented here as a standalone location-assistance system. I have had the strong impression from the various Apple statements and from looking at the Skyhook web site that the service is really meant as an assist to the GPS and cell tower triangulation pieces. They all work together to drastically increase the success rate of location services.

So, the net to me is that people may get intermittent success with location services on the touch, but it will not be the rule and will not be something that people can count on to work at all times.

I am not an expert in this at all, but it seems logical.

Any other ideas?

Sam

 

[localoid]

Here is my impression of this.

I have never heard anything from Apple that says that Skyhook was meant to be used on the iPod touch. It certainly must be there in the touch 2.0 software, if there are scattered reports of intermittent location services working. But, I think the reality is that Skyhook is not really implemented here as a standalone location-assistance system. I have had the strong impression from the various Apple statements and from looking at the Skyhook web site that the service is really meant as an assist to the GPS and cell tower triangulation pieces. They all work together to drastically increase the success rate of location services.

So, the net to me is that people may get intermittent success with location services on the touch, but it will not be the rule and will not be something that people can count on to work at all times.

I am not an expert in this at all, but it seems logical.

Any other ideas?

Sam

From: Skyhook in action > Apple

"When Apple's CEO Steve Jobs announced Wi-Fi location for Apple's mobile devices at Macworld in January 2008, he commented on the technology: "Isn't that cool? That's really cool.... And it works doggone well." After his announcement, Wi-Fi location became available to all iPhone and iPod touch users with a simple firmware upgrade."

How well this works depends on many different things, including whether or not local wifi is included in Skyhook's database, however people can submit submit an access point...

 

[sandman42]

I have never heard anything from Apple that says that Skyhook was meant to be used on the iPod touch. It certainly must be there in the touch 2.0 software...

The locating feature was available, using Skyhook, on the iPod Touch long before the 2.0 firmware. It's been available on the Touch as long as Maps has, since the January update. This was acknowledged and announced by Apple since that time, too. I can definitely confirm that my Touch has had locating ability since I got it (with the Jan update pre-loaded), well before the 2.0 firmware upgrade.

Incidentally, neither the iPhone nor the iPod Touch can use the accelerometer to calculate changes in position. Although there are devices that can do this (navigational inertial reference systems), they need not only initial position and linear acceleration data which the Apple devices have, but also angular (rotational) acceleration and initial orientation (such as bearing/azimuth and inclination), which they don't have. In other words, in order for them to be able to calculate their movement they'd have to be able to detect motion in six degrees of freedom (can only do 3) and you'd have to be able to initially align (calibrate) them in all 6 degrees (can only do 4).

 

[brian9271]

Yes, it CAN track you via WiFi. However, the "tracking" is far from real-time. It is a slow, impractical following, and the blue "location" circle is so wide, and covers such a general location that it is totally unreliable.

Also, unless you are connected to these WiFi connections, you will be unable to load the map, so all you see is a blue circle and a gray grid.

Don't expect this to be useful or practical, for it is neither.

Yep, damn right, I wasn't even able to load the blue circle when I was connected to WiFi, weird...

 

[Chundles]

No, you do not have to be connected to the networks for them to be used.

True - but you'll need to be connected to one of them so that Google Maps can load the images.

 

[iCantwait]

The Pod dunnit have to be connected to a network, it just needs to sense networks in range, but Gmaps would have to be preloaded

 

[sseelman]

Ok, so it seems that Skyhook has been around for awhile on the touch. I stand corrected. However, I still stand by my statements above that the usefulness on the iPod touch will be minimal without GPS. The lack of pre-downloaded maps has already been mentioned. Unless a company does provide that feature, it basically says the Skyhook feature is near useless. Some other programs have location services available (the news services program, yellow pages, etc...). I tried those in some very informal testing and I was never able to get this feature to work. I was in an area that looked like it had Skyhook coverage (based on their map). This just reinforces my point that Skyhook on the touch is currently useless, as it should not be that difficult to get it to work correctly. It should just work without having to do crazy gymnastics - in areas where their map shows coverage.

Anyway - it is all a moot point for me, as I have decided to go to the dark side and get an iPhone 3G today. I just want that next level of connectivity and A-GPS support. My iPod touch will sit gathering dust until I finally decide what to do with it.

 

[fake1009]

So let me get this straight. I can determine my location via wi-fi as long as there are wi-fi routers present. I do not have connect to the router it just somehow transfers the location data to me even though the network is locked. And the maps can only be downloaded if I am near an unlocked router. Is this correct?

When I tried this location determination thing and it only seemed to work when I was near unlocked networks. It seemed to be only able to locate me when I am near a unlocked network. Whenever I was able to determine my location ( a change or movement in the blue circle) I saw the wi-fi icon at the top meaning that I was connected to an unlocked network. Every time I saw this I got off my bike and went over to the settings and checked the routers in the area and sure enough the router that determined my connection was unlocked. Whats going on?

I am confused.