Is Apple anti-Disney or is Disney anti-Apple?

[shinseiromeo]

Apple has been bragging how they are all about 4K and Atmos now, yet new movies are lower quality on their services than the competition.

I've been a long advocate of Apple TV for quite some time, owning several iterations through the years. I am also a huge movie buff, having the latest tech such as OLED TVs and a compatible home theater system with Atmos and Vision are important to me. When Apple announced the 4kTV was getting Atmos support, and existing HD movies were being upgraded to 4K at no cost, I was ecstatic! Except a year in and I am not pleased with the end results.

Let me explain... I have a very large catalog of titles, over 1,400 digital copies on VUDU/UV, and 1,200 on iTunes. Of the 1,200 titles, over 300 are 4K titles. I have noticed though lately I tend to use VUDU to watch movies (thanks to moviesanywhere sharing) than Apple. Why? Because to be direct the 4kTV A/V just sucks. The Atmos tracks and LFE are significantly better through VUDU than through the 4kTV, dialog is louder and more clear. And now to my point of the title...

I have noticed a trend lately with Disney movies such as Wreck it Ralph 2 and Mary Poppins Returns, they are Dolby Vision/Atmos on VUDU yet plain HD with basic audio on Apple TV. I know Disney and amazon have been fighting, as amazon doesn't sell Disney BDs or 4K movies. So between Disney and Apple... what gives, who is to blame?

 

[oneMadRssn]

Comparing a/v quality of streaming services is silly. By definition the a/v will be lossy and imperfect. You accept that when you decide to stream. This is fine, in my opinion.

If you want the highest quality, UHD 4K BluRay is the best way to go.

 

[Menel]

Apple has never been the audio/video enthusiast. They are for the yuppie condo living convenience consumer.

Their audio finally got acceptable with the 256kbps Mastered for iTunes ,but before that it was mediocre.

Their 4mbps 1080P was a joke. Their lag on 4K, their lag on atmos, they still lack API for bitstreaming DTS, etc. You go to Apple for convenience, not quality.

 

[gnomeisland]

I don't think there's any bad blood but I do know that Disney is one of the few hold outs against auto-upgrading HD to 4K. Apple doesn't have separate tiers for HD vs 4K/HDR so my guess is that they aren't available because both companies are being stubborn not because they are trying to "get" the other guy. VUDU has three tiers so there's the HDR option where available.

As an ancillary to this confusion, I broke down and bought an Apple TV 4K largely because my Movies Anywhere movies, which were largely bought through iTunes, are only HD on other services, including VUDU. So I see all this as the unexpected downside of Apple's generous 4K upgrade policy.

 

[shinseiromeo]

Comparing a/v quality of streaming services is silly. By definition the a/v will be lossy and imperfect. You accept that when you decide to stream. This is fine, in my opinion.

If you want the highest quality, UHD 4K BluRay is the best way to go.

I'm going to be direct, and this may come off as harsh. Your post serves no purpose to this thread.

I own the latest OLED TV, UP970 4K player, a decent home theater, and plenty of discs. This thread is specifically directly towards streaming services and Apple TV 4k. Telling people to go watch discs is asinine.
[doublepost=1553268845][/doublepost]

I don't think there's any bad blood but I do know that Disney is one of the few hold outs against auto-upgrading HD to 4K. Apple doesn't have separate tiers for HD vs 4K/HDR so my guess is that they aren't available because both companies are being stubborn not because they are trying to "get" the other guy. VUDU has three tiers so there's the HDR option where available.

As an ancillary to this confusion, I broke down and bought an Apple TV 4K largely because my Movies Anywhere movies, which were largely bought through iTunes, are only HD on other services, including VUDU. So I see all this as the unexpected downside of Apple's generous 4K upgrade policy.

I can understand Disney being miffed and not agreeing with the free upgrade to 4K from HD. The issue here is that the digital copy codes included with 4K discs are 4K codes. They redeem as 4K with Vision/Atmos on VUDU, yet iTunes only offers the movies in HD. So in the end, you're getting a lower quality edition of the movie for... why? You paid for a 4K code and Apple is only giving you HD, this is not about free upgrades. That's what I'd like to find out.

 

[gnomeisland]

That you were talking specifically about codes redeemed through VUDU not showing as 4K in iTunes wasn't clear in your post. I buy/redeem very few movies through VUDU (maybe one?). As I mentioned in my post, most (all? I'd have to check) of my 4K iTunes movies show up as only HD in VUDU so I don't see this an Apple thing or even an Apple vs anybody else thing. Clearly VUDU isn't honoring purchases made in Apple's store either.

Your code may be a 4K code but it is still tied to a specific retailer and they're going to have their own policies and relationships. Movies Anywhere seems to do a great job at making the transition between retailers seamless for SD & HD content but the agreements are disjointed (perhaps nonexistent) for 4K/HDR. Sucks, but this seems like a general licensing issue when it comes to 4K digital movies.

Disclaimer: I don't have any insider knowledge I've just been researching this for the last week and I mulled the decision to upgrade my Apple TV. So these are my educated guesses.

 

[shinseiromeo]

That you were talking specifically about codes redeemed through VUDU not showing as 4K in iTunes wasn't clear in your post. I buy/redeem very few movies through VUDU (maybe one?). As I mentioned in my post, most (all? I'd have to check) of my 4K iTunes movies show up as only HD in VUDU so I don't see this an Apple thing or even an Apple vs anybody else thing. Clearly VUDU isn't honoring purchases made in Apple's store either.

Your code may be a 4K code but it is still tied to a specific retailer and they're going to have their own policies and relationships. Movies Anywhere seems to do a great job at making the transition between retailers seamless for SD & HD content but the agreements are disjointed (perhaps nonexistent) for 4K/HDR. Sucks, but this seems like a general licensing issue when it comes to 4K digital movies.

Disclaimer: I don't have any insider knowledge I've just been researching this for the last week and I mulled the decision to upgrade my Apple TV. So these are my educated guesses.

All Disney codes are moviesanywhere, which I believe they own. The codes specifically redeem as 4K through their own service. When VUDU seems the moviesanywhere code, they give you the UHD version of the movie. When iTunes sees that same code, they downgrade the movie and give you an inferior version. So you buy a Disney movie with a 4K copy, redeem the 4K code on a Disney service, and when you play the movie back on an Apple device the movie is downgraded. When you play it on any other device, the movie streams as it's supposed to, UHD with Dolby Vision/Atmos.

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

It is what it is. It's American business and that usually means greed. All of these companies operate for one reason - to make money and please their shareholders. Just look at dear Apple - constantly fighting with their suppliers or taking another to court. It's the evil of business and being honest, there's simply no point in worrying or even arguing about it - it shouldn't effect your life. If these companies are that shallow, then let them get on with it. Just don't buy into it too much!
From what I can see, it's very easy to get sucked in with the A/V thing and sadly, the more I read into it, these A/V people are not happy people. Look at AV forums - full of sad, dissatisfied souls looking for dark levels or banding or this or that. Quite tragic. Life is short - it can be gone tomorrow. When you take materialistic things too seriously, they control you and become your master - the opposite of what it should be. My advice is to simply try and enjoy your films, don't be over critical or you'll miss the 'film' and maybe get out there with new hobbies and friends that bring more joy and give inspiration

 

[bluespark]

From what I can see, it's very easy to get sucked in with the A/V thing and sadly, the more I read into it, these A/V people are not happy people. Look at AV forums - full of sad, dissatisfied souls looking for dark levels or banding or this or that. Quite tragic. Life is short - it can be gone tomorrow. When you take materialistic things too seriously, they control you and become your master - the opposite of what it should be. My advice is to simply try and enjoy your films, don't be over critical or you'll miss the 'film' and maybe get out there with new hobbies and friends that bring more joy and give inspiration

There is a grain of truth to what you're saying but for those of us who notice and appreciate certain details, it's hard to accept not having them. After all, much of enjoying art -- whether film, theatre, classical music, whatever -- is about grasping details that are incredibly subtle and intricate but that nevertheless are critical to understanding the artist's vision. Where possible, we want our equipment to allow us that level of enjoyment.

To the OP, I share your frustration. Part of the problem is that Apple markets the Apple TV 4K as an ultimate solution for A/V playback. Things like Atmos, Dolby Vision, and 4K are marquee features. It's therefore disappointing when in a particular case (Disney especially) that purpose can't be realized.

Also, once upon a time, Apple products managed to achieve both convenience and high-end aspirations. It's cool that Apple has so smoothly integrated system noises with the movie soundtrack, for example, but a prior version of Apple would have understood that users need a preference to turn this sort of thing off. Not anymore, and that's part of the reason some of us aren't quite as happy with Apple gear as we once were.

 

[BJMRamage]

All Disney codes are moviesanywhere, which I believe they own. The codes specifically redeem as 4K through their own service. When VUDU seems the moviesanywhere code, they give you the UHD version of the movie. When iTunes sees that same code, they downgrade the movie and give you an inferior version. So you buy a Disney movie with a 4K copy, redeem the 4K code on a Disney service, and when you play the movie back on an Apple device the movie is downgraded. When you play it on any other device, the movie streams as it's supposed to, UHD with Dolby Vision/Atmos.

this is ONLY because Disney wants a higher price-point for UHD/4K. Apple ONLY sells SD and HD with HD consisting of 720/1080/4K. Apple wanted the studios to agree to "free" upgrades and offer "free" 4K at HD price-points. So... Apple cannot play 4K from a studio if that studio does not agree to sell 4K for the same as HD pricing. **Apple does not DOWNGRADE your 4k Disney code...they play that code at the HIGHEST available they were given from THAT Studio.

This all seems ODD, especially when Disney was one of the first studios to Auto-Upgrade from SD to HD with their former Disney Locker.

as of right now, I do not believe 4k/UHD Disney pricing is the same as HD pricing in VUDU/Fandango. oh and Movies Anywhere is not a retailer but a locker with links to appropriate retailers.

 

[shinseiromeo]

It is what it is. It's American business and that usually means greed. All of these companies operate for one reason - to make money and please their shareholders. Just look at dear Apple - constantly fighting with their suppliers or taking another to court. It's the evil of business and being honest, there's simply no point in worrying or even arguing about it - it shouldn't effect your life. If these companies are that shallow, then let them get on with it. Just don't buy into it too much!
From what I can see, it's very easy to get sucked in with the A/V thing and sadly, the more I read into it, these A/V people are not happy people. Look at AV forums - full of sad, dissatisfied souls looking for dark levels or banding or this or that. Quite tragic. Life is short - it can be gone tomorrow. When you take materialistic things too seriously, they control you and become your master - the opposite of what it should be. My advice is to simply try and enjoy your films, don't be over critical or you'll miss the 'film' and maybe get out there with new hobbies and friends that bring more joy and give inspiration

Right... so next time you buy a 4K movie and inside is a DVD, or you go to a restaurant and order a Delmonico steak yet they serve you a ground beef patty, I'll tell you to suck it up, grow up, and get outside more often.

 

[BJMRamage]

Right... so next time you buy a 4K movie and inside is a DVD, or you go to a restaurant and order a Delmonico steak yet they serve you a ground beef patty, I'll tell you to suck it up, grow up, and get outside more often.

A better analogy was if you had a coupon for various restaurants for a discount on their best Argentinean Steak. One restaurant may have a better cut. but perhaps ...Applebees only sells a low-cut Argentinean steak. Perhaps they sell higher-cuts/grade American steaks or Mexican steaks but for Argentinean steaks they only sell a lower cut and therefore your coupon will ONLY get you the highest cut they sell of that country's steak.

 

[gnomeisland]

Right... so next time you buy a 4K movie and inside is a DVD, or you go to a restaurant and order a Delmonico steak yet they serve you a ground beef patty, I'll tell you to suck it up, grow up, and get outside more often.

I get that it is frustrating but the analogy doesn't really fit. Usage and rights with digital purchases aren't that straightforward. Perhaps they should be, but they aren't. It does sound like, based on your media choices of where and how you are purchasing movies, that VUDU on webOS is the better choice. Sucks that Apple is working out, but, hey, at least you've got options! It wasn't that long ago that even this level of cooperation between distributors and studio would be unbelievable. I thought Disney Anywhere was a scam the first time I ran across it. I could not believe that a studio like Disney was willing to honor purchases made on other platforms.

My point is not that it doesn't suck but that it doesn't seem to be an Apple thing (VUDU don't recognize the HDR movies I buy from iTunes) and it doesn't appear to be and Apple hating Disney thing or vice-versa. It appears to simply be disagreements about licensing and how it applies to Movies Anywhere. Hopefully soon it will get sorted out in our favor.

 

[Beerstalker]

Like BJMRamage gets at it is because Disney want's paid for their 4K movies.

I haven't checked but if you buy a Blu-Ray and add it to Movies Anywhere do you get the 4K version, or do you just get the 1080p version? My guess is you only get the 1080p version unless you buy the UHD Blu-Ray.

I have a ton of Disney Blu-Rays, many of them had iTunes codes etc. so now I have 1080p versions for them on iTunes. Disney doesn't want me to suddenly get 4K versions of those movies in iTunes for free. They want me to buy the movie again on UHD to get the 4K version.

My guess is Apple is saying that to have 4K versions in the iTunes store they have to be free upgrades from the 1080p version. Disney is saying that they want paid for the upgrade, and neither one is willing to move on that. Since Apple isn't willing to let Disney charge to upgrade people from 1080p to 4K on iTunes, Disney is probably telling them that they can't have any 4K movies.

 

[gnomeisland]

All Disney codes are moviesanywhere, which I believe they own. The codes specifically redeem as 4K through their own service. When VUDU seems the moviesanywhere code, they give you the UHD version of the movie. When iTunes sees that same code, they downgrade the movie and give you an inferior version. So you buy a Disney movie with a 4K copy, redeem the 4K code on a Disney service, and when you play the movie back on an Apple device the movie is downgraded. When you play it on any other device, the movie streams as it's supposed to, UHD with Dolby Vision/Atmos.

If you're talking about Disney movies in particular Apple doesn't have access to the 4K version at all. So they aren't downgrading, they just can't serve you what they themselves don't possess. As I pointed out earlier, because of disagreements about how 4K should be handled, iTunes doesn't sell ANY 4K Disney movies.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

They're competitors. Disney just fired Mike Dunn, so expect no more new "Fox" titles in 4k on iTunes at all. Wouldn't surprise me if available titles will drop 4k as well.

The Atmos tracks and LFE are significantly better through VUDU than through the 4kTV, dialog is louder and more clear.

It's well known that there are volume differences between Apple TV and others. That's why it's not enough to just buy equipment, but calibrate both audio and video for each individual source.

If you want the highest quality, UHD 4K BluRay is the best way to go.

That's still lossy, even though it's not streaming.

 

[niteflyr]

From what I can see, it's very easy to get sucked in with the A/V thing and sadly, the more I read into it, these A/V people are not happy people. Look at AV forums - full of sad, dissatisfied souls looking for dark levels or banding or this or that. Quite tragic. Life is short - it can be gone tomorrow. When you take materialistic things too seriously, they control you and become your master - the opposite of what it should be. My advice is to simply try and enjoy your films, don't be over critical or you'll miss the 'film' and maybe get out there with new hobbies and friends that bring more joy and give inspiration

What a giant steaming pile of cr@p! It must seem godlike going through life convinced you are so superior to everyone else.

 

[Tech198]

You gotta cater for all.. Just because you want Apple to have the best streaming for you, will disadvantage others.

Apple can't exactly re-encode, let alone do it "on the fly" for the highest quality video/and audio based on bandwidth connection...

And that would just be for [1] user. It adds up for million others with 4K. Plus we all have different a/v formats, codec sounding better than others, so rather users get the choice of going with Apple as a whole or not...

Companies choose their own methods.

 

[err404]

Comparing a/v quality of streaming services is silly. By definition the a/v will be lossy and imperfect. You accept that when you decide to stream. This is fine, in my opinion.

If you want the highest quality, UHD 4K BluRay is the best way to go.

I couldn’t disagree more. There are substantial differences between services in bitrate and support for HDR and newer audio formats.
Also while a disc may be the highest quality a/v, it is among the lowest quality experience. Maintaining a case of movies and inserting the disc only to have ads play turned me off of physical media for good.
The state of streaming is really very impressive right now. I use iTunes for everything except Disney, which I get in 4k on VUDU. The library syncs between services and I just need to remember to use VUDU for watching Disney. When Apple and Disney get things figured out I expect iTunes will automatically upgrade these movies to 4k.

 

[priitv8]

I couldn’t disagree more. There are substantial differences between services in bitrate and support for HDR and newer audio formats.
Also while a disc may be the highest quality a/v, it is among the lowest quality experience. Maintaining a case of movies and inserting the disc only to have ads play turned me off of physical media for good.

Luckily, they've got rid of them on UHD discs. Like they've got rid of region codes as well.

The state of streaming is really very impressive right now. I use iTunes for everything except Disney, which I get in 4k on VUDU. The library syncs between services and I just need to remember to use VUDU for watching Disney. When Apple and Disney get things figured out I expect iTunes will automatically upgrade these movies to 4k.

It is still a case of selecting convenience over quality. Which is fine for many.
State of streaming is impressive, but so is the state of UHD bluray. And there is still a recognisable gap between the two.

 

[shinseiromeo]

If you're talking about Disney movies in particular Apple doesn't have access to the 4K version at all. So they aren't downgrading, they just can't serve you what they themselves don't possess. As I pointed out earlier, because of disagreements about how 4K should be handled, iTunes doesn't sell ANY 4K Disney movies.

I understand that and it's unfortunate. I'm not sure who I want to pin the blame on for being anti consumer. I get it, Disney doesn't want to give away free 4K upgrades, well I just want what I paid for.

The fact is if I buy a 4K disc with a 4K digital code, I can access the 4K UHD stream on every device except Apple devices. This hissy fit of "you can't have ANY 4K Disney stream on Apple devices" is nonsense, as it is screwing paying customers.

 

[gnomeisland]

I understand that and it's unfortunate. I'm not sure who I want to pin the blame on for being anti consumer. I get it, Disney doesn't want to give away free 4K upgrades, well I just want what I paid for.

The fact is if I buy a 4K disc with a 4K digital code, I can access the 4K UHD stream on every device except Apple devices. This hissy fit of "you can't have ANY 4K Disney stream on Apple devices" is nonsense, as it is screwing paying customers.

I don't know the ins-and-outs but it seems like Disney is the party at fault—if you really want someone to blame. They are restricting their 4K content. Sure, if you buy it and pay a premium for it they will let your watch it on several vendors who have also agreed to pay a premium for it, but they don't seem willing to negotiate with Apple or Netflix (also no 4K content). I'm cautiously optimistic things will change once Disney launches their own streaming service.

 

[err404]

Luckily, they've got rid of them on UHD discs. Like they've got rid of region codes as well.
It is still a case of selecting convenience over quality. Which is fine for many.
State of streaming is impressive, but so is the state of UHD bluray. And there is still a recognisable gap between the two.

As far as I know UHD standards still support PUO to force users to view preroll ads. Maybe this is used less frequently, but it is too little too late. Many users have already passed on the BD generation in favor of streaming, building substantial digital libraries. They aren’t coming back.
oneMadRssn’s position is presumptuous when he argues that streaming users are “silly” to care about bitrate, HDR, Atmos, etc. While users may have opted out of the top tier quality in favor of a superior experience, it does not correlate that image/audio quality are irrelevant.

 

[oneMadRssn]

I couldn’t disagree more. There are substantial differences between services in bitrate and support for HDR and newer audio formats.
Also while a disc may be the highest quality a/v, it is among the lowest quality experience. Maintaining a case of movies and inserting the disc only to have ads play turned me off of physical media for good.
The state of streaming is really very impressive right now. I use iTunes for everything except Disney, which I get in 4k on VUDU. The library syncs between services and I just need to remember to use VUDU for watching Disney. When Apple and Disney get things figured out I expect iTunes will automatically upgrade these movies to 4k.

I don't disagree with any of that, I was more responding to the OP comparing the streaming audio and video quality of VUDU to iTunes (I assume that is what he meant when referring to the ATV4k), but also saying that "having the latest tech such as OLED TVs and a compatible home theater system with Atmos and Vision are important." It just seemed like a contradictory juxtaposition to me.

If one cares about the best experience, buying an OLED tv with Dolby Vision and a home theater audio system with Atmos, then streaming will inherently be subpar. Today's compression and streaming tech is awesome and all, but you just can't compare to the 100+ MBps of UHD BR.

Streaming is still great though. First, not all content needs to be experienced in super high quality. Sitcoms like Modern Family are just as funny in 720p or even 480p. Second, streaming is unbelievably convenient. Not long ago it was unimaginable that I would be able to stream to a device in my pocket while flying across the country in a jet. Yet there I was, streaming the Grand Tour on a JetBlue flight.

As for the poor experience of disks, I couldn't agree more. Ripping the disks to a NAS is definitely the way to go for those that really care about a/v quality. It's the best of both worlds: local streaming on a gigabit LAN is perfectly capable of supporting UHD BR bitrates, but without the BS of physical disks.

 

[shinseiromeo]

I don't know the ins-and-outs but it seems like Disney is the party at fault—if you really want someone to blame. They are restricting their 4K content. Sure, if you buy it and pay a premium for it they will let your watch it on several vendors who have also agreed to pay a premium for it, but they don't seem willing to negotiate with Apple or Netflix (also no 4K content). I'm cautiously optimistic things will change once Disney launches their own streaming service.

I concur. This whole pissing contest is like the zero tolerance policies... one person ruins it for everyone.

I don't disagree with any of that, I was more responding to the OP comparing the streaming audio and video quality of VUDU to iTunes (I assume that is what he meant when referring to the ATV4k), but also saying that "having the latest tech such as OLED TVs and a compatible home theater system with Atmos and Vision are important." It just seemed like a contradictory juxtaposition to me.

If one cares about the best experience, buying an OLED tv with Dolby Vision and a home theater audio system with Atmos, then streaming will inherently be subpar. Today's compression and streaming tech is awesome and all, but you just can't compare to the 100+ MBps of UHD BR.

Streaming is still great though. First, not all content needs to be experienced in super high quality. Sitcoms like Modern Family are just as funny in 720p or even 480p. Second, streaming is unbelievably convenient. Not long ago it was unimaginable that I would be able to stream to a device in my pocket while flying across the country in a jet. Yet there I was, streaming the Grand Tour on a JetBlue flight.

As for the poor experience of disks, I couldn't agree more. Ripping the disks to a NAS is definitely the way to go for those that really care about a/v quality. It's the best of both worlds: local streaming on a gigabit LAN is perfectly capable of supporting UHD BR bitrates, but without the BS of physical disks.

By all means we can have differing opinions, though to me your analogy of saying you cannot compare VUDU vs iTunes 4k because they are both streaming is the same correlation as saying you cannot compare a BD vs a UHD disc because 'discs are discs'.

I don't know if you do choose to stream though I made the decision to switch for a few reasons. One was space, I had well over 1,000 BD discs several years ago and physically ran out of room in my home to support a never ending growing library. Two, with new tech, 4K/HDR/Vision/Atmos streams, digital got pretty damn good. And three, I get nearly every copy of movies digitally for free, zero cost.

Now as far as comparing digital services, they are vastly different. VUDU supports HDR and higher bitrate audio more often than iTunes does. Even when both services offer a movie in Dolby Vision, VUDU generally has an Atmos track whereas iTunes is DD+. Plus with Apple offering a lower quality stream, LFE does not hit nearly as much. I've done extensive testing over the years with the same movie, testing the acoustics between the two services in my home, and the different is simply huge.