Is Apple going too far in it's quest for thin computers?

[Pressure]

Evangelion, I don't know why you humor him with an answer... He'll just come right back with some sort of cult worshiper's apology... Just look at his last 4 posts... they just scream fanboy!!!!

The damn thing is underclocked and the specs on the website are missleading and there's no arguement there. A normal buyer will go to a website, check the specs, and buy the computer with the cpu, gpu, and size he/she is interested in, they are not going to spend a week reading forums to ensure that his company of choice is not forgeting to mention that they clock their chips/memory modules at different speeds. Thats just me, because I have way too much spare time.

Also, I'm not going to lie, I once fell for it with my dell D800... Dell did underclock the geforce 4200, but by 6mhz, and for power consumption, which is easier to solve on windows with coolbits, with no side effects. But apple dropped nearly half of the clock speed, to avoid HEAT PROBLEMS, and there doesn't seem to be a solution, and if there was, you'd probably cook your testicles is the process, and the cpu would probably throttle down to 600mhz or something...

I have no reason to apologize. I am not defending Apple. I am just stating the obvious. You don't have any concrete facts to put on the table or any evidence to support what you are saying.

I am merely showing the holes in your argumentations.

It's not as if my MacBook Pro is an golden example or anything. It has issues and is currently at the nearest Apple Repair facility.

I doubt most Mac buyers are concerned whether or not the graphic card is clocked like any other ATI Mobility X1600. I see no reason why you are comparing a Windows-based notebook to an Apple computer. The difference in the end the for the ordinary Apple user and the deciding factor will still be; can it run Mac OSX or not?

Those who use Mac OSX will buy it. As a Windows user (a wild guess, you are <cough>) you have plenty of other options and are free to look elsewhere. No one is forcing you to buy an Apple computer.

 

[Pressure]

EDIT: grockk, they compared the 17", which has a 2.16 GHz proc. to the 2.0 GHz 15" model. Before the speedbumd, the hi-end 15" was 2.0 GHz with 256 MB VRAM.

Testing conducted by Apple in February 2006 using preproduction 15-inch MacBook Pro units with 2.16GHz Intel Core Duo;

Testing conducted by Apple in April 2006 using preproduction 17-inch MacBook Pro units with 2.16GHz Intel Core Duo;

Exact same processor, as I was kind enough to provide information about in the other post

 

[m-dogg]

I think the PowerBook demensions are better overall in comparison to the MacBook Pro.

Sure, the MBP might be a mm thinnner, which is hardly noticable. But it's also wider than the PB it replaced. The MB may be thinnner, but it feels bigger to me when I look at them in the store (in comparison to my PB at home).

 

[thejadedmonkey]

I love knowing that my MBP 17" is thinner when its closed than my Girlfriends Dell 1505 when its open.

And that matters why, when the 1505 has better functionability. Of course, "better" is an opinion, but it's got buttons right on the front of it to control all aspects of media. The MacBook, and MBP are all basic laptops with a keyboard and volume control. Where's the forward/backwards/play/pause buttons? Quite honestly, I've use a 1" think laptop (what I'm on now) and a much thicker Dell laptop, and I prefer the feel of the dell. It didn't feel like i could snap it in half, but the one I'm on now is nicer because it has a scroll wheel in between the two mouse buttons. Why doesn't apple do that on their laptops? Oh, that's right... form over function guys.

Next, when the Macbook is closed, it looks shut, without a gap. This is why there's a 90 degree corner that can dig into your wrists. That's a design flaw. Where's the DL DVD drive in the MBP? How about the heat dispersion? I was only ever able to get my laptop so hot that I couldn't use it on my lap once, and that was when EVERYTHING, CUP, GPU, FSB were maxed out (don't play WoW on computers that can't handle it!).

Now I've never actually used a MBP, but I've used a McBook, and they look all pretty, but the screen bezel takes up way too much space, and they get really hot really fast, so it's not like they look perfect, or perform perfect. There's a lot of flaws that I think apple needs to address.

 

[dextertangocci]

I have NEVER burnt a dual layer DVD

I have never even found a place that sells dual layer DVD's!

 

[AlexH]

To answer the poll question, no, I don't think Apple is pushing it too far by trying to make thin laptops. I love thin Powerbooks, MacBook Pros, and MacBooks. I hate clunky, thick, laptops. Yuk!

 

[dextertangocci]

And that matters why, when the 1505 has better functionability. Of course, "better" is an opinion, but it's got buttons right on the front of it to control all aspects of media. The MacBook, and MBP are all basic laptops with a keyboard and volume control. Where's the forward/backwards/play/pause buttons? Quite honestly, I've use a 1" think laptop (what I'm on now) and a much thicker Dell laptop, and I prefer the feel of the dell. It didn't feel like i could snap it in half, but the one I'm on now is nicer because it has a scroll wheel in between the two mouse buttons. Why doesn't apple do that on their laptops? Oh, that's right... form over function guys.

Next, when the Macbook is closed, it looks shut, without a gap. This is why there's a 90 degree corner that can dig into your wrists. That's a design flaw. Where's the DL DVD drive in the MBP? How about the heat dispersion? I was only ever able to get my laptop so hot that I couldn't use it on my lap once, and that was when EVERYTHING, CUP, GPU, FSB were maxed out (don't play WoW on computers that can't handle it!).

Now I've never actually used a MBP, but I've used a McBook, and they look all pretty, but the screen bezel takes up way too much space, and they get really hot really fast, so it's not like they look perfect, or perform perfect. There's a lot of flaws that I think apple needs to address.

Whatever you say

I think I will rush to exchange my MB for a thick, ****ly Dell that has all those "oh so important" cheap looking buttons.

Or maybe I will just use my Apple remote Does the Dell come with one of those?

 

[bbrosemer]

On the right side mouse over the 15 and the 17 and you can see that the Doom 3 gaming performance is 2.2x faster for the 15 in. and 2.4x faster for the 17 in.
View attachment 56251View attachment 56252

That is well within the margin of error...

 

[deputy_doofy]

I want a new, REALLY thin MBP (w/C2D)™. Ok, it doesn't have to be really thin, but I don't mind. The one complaint I hear from time to time by my Dell-laptop using friend is that he'd consider a smaller laptop next time because it's heavier than he'd like it to be. No, it's not HEAVY, but his laptop feels like a behemoth compared to my 12" PB. I have a feeling that it will STILL feel like a behemoth compared to a 15" MBP.
As for the DL drive.... yes, I would LIKE to have it, but that's only because it will be useful if/when prices come down for the DL DVDs. I've had my dual G5 for over a year now and have NOT used the DL capability yet (hope it works ).
Anyway, I'm going to continue being impatient and checking every day for the machine that probably won't be released until at least 9-5. Damn. lol

 

[dmw007]

I would never want to see Apple join the Dell, HP, or IBM thick and chunky club, but the first business of any computer has to be usability.

My thoughts exactly, I would never want to see Apple join the ranks of say Dell or HP and make big, clunky laptops that are a complete eye sore.

 

[Gurutech]

Do you guys even own MBP and have used extensively?
Or are you just comparing the design w/o any experience?
Or, if you've been using MBP so extensively, is it still just warm to touch while on full load? You don't sweat at all? Is temp of top of the keyboard and bottom surface remain just warm? not like 70~80 degree Celsius?

I want to know it because if you just feel warm while you work on MBP, obviously, I have a major heat problem that needs to be fixed... even though people in Genius Bar already assured me that this is perfectly normal.

 

[Mackilroy]

Interestingly enough, my iBook G4 always felt warmer to the touch then my MacBook ever did, and that includes before I installed the firmware update that changed how the fans run. It was a 1.0 GHz machine, and I couldn't use it on my lap without something in between.

 

[poppe]

And that matters why, when the 1505 has better functionability. Of course, "better" is an opinion, but it's got buttons right on the front of it to control all aspects of media. The MacBook, and MBP are all basic laptops with a keyboard and volume control. Where's the forward/backwards/play/pause buttons? Quite honestly, I've use a 1" think laptop (what I'm on now) and a much thicker Dell laptop, and I prefer the feel of the dell. It didn't feel like i could snap it in half

My girlfriend never uses those media center controls except for one thing volume. Well I can do that on a Mac. And as many have said I can use my remote or I could just use a my mouse.

And her Dell does have alot of nice features, like TV Tuner and media control buttons on the outside, but really for around 2" thick I better get alot more than what she got. like dual HDs, dual optical drives. If I ever go back to getting thick laptops I'll go get an Alienware. Yes there thick and huge, but at least i'm geting Desktop processing powers
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What computer do you have that is 1" thick that feels like its going to snap in half? I've never heard any MBP, PB, MB, or iBook users ever say they wish they had a dell so there Apple laptop computer would not feel like its going to snap in half.

 

[John Jacob]

Call it what you like but Apple have made an intentional performance drop to satisfy style. With a little more volume inside the case and better airflow, they could have clocked the GPU at a much higher speed and not exceeded the current heat profile.

Is keeping the case 1 inch thick truly a benefit, especially if you want 3D performance? I don't think so. The 17 inch machine is nice but it's not nearly as portable or affordable and isn't an alternative in most situations.

It depends on the customer. What I want is a 13" widescreen MacBook Pro that has a GPU, is half an inch thick, weighs 3 pounds, has a dual-layer DVD burner and 5+ hours battery life. For that, I'm ready to take a little bit of heat, and a little bit of "mooing" as well (and I'm sticking with my PB 12 till Apple releases this or I absolutely cannot do without a new notebook).

Others may want a thicker, heavier notebook with the same features and better thermal management and quietness. Now Apple can't satisfy everyone, so they go by the majority. And looking at the votes on this poll, the majority wants THIN.

 

[Evangelion]

On the right side mouse over the 15 and the 17 and you can see that the Doom 3 gaming performance is 2.2x faster for the 15 in. and 2.4x faster for the 17 in.

I'm well aware of those graphs. What I meant was that there is no text saying (for example) "In addition, the 17" MacBook Pro features even faster graphics subsystem than the 15" MacBook Pro does".

 

[Evangelion]

I have no reason to apologize. I am not defending Apple. I am just stating the obvious. You don't have any concrete facts to put on the table or any evidence to support what you are saying.

Like I said, just about every reviewer has stated that the MacBooks run very hot. Are you disputing their claims? On the MacBook, Ars Techinca said:

The system would step the speed of the processor up to 1.833GHz until the processor crossed a threshold of approximately 82°C at which point it would step the processor down to 1.667GHz. When the processor dropped below 80°C it would speed step back up to 1.833GHz and the cycle would continue. As expected, this would cause the system's fans to rev up to their full speed and overall, the machine was very noisy at this point.

I think that most people would agree that a machine running over 80°C is not operating properly.

Have you read any reviews of the new laptops? Most of them mention that the machines run hot.

I doubt most Mac buyers are concerned whether or not the graphic card is clocked like any other ATI Mobility X1600. I see no reason why you are comparing a Windows-based notebook to an Apple computer. The difference in the end the for the ordinary Apple user and the deciding factor will still be; can it run Mac OSX or not?

If the graphics do not matter, why does Apple advertise that the machine has X1600? And their X1600 is very different from every other X1600 in the market. When they say that their system ships with certain type of GPU, people actually expect to receive a certain type of GPU. Is it really honest to give them a GPU that runs maybe 30% slower than what it should run?

Those who use Mac OSX will buy it. As a Windows user (a wild guess, you are <cough>) you have plenty of other options and are free to look elsewhere. No one is forcing you to buy an Apple computer.

is THAT your argument? "You are a Windows-user, why do you care about the MacBook?"? Anyway, I'm forced to use Windows at work, but at home, I don't have Windows installed at all.

 

[Evangelion]

1. The GPU is not underlocked.

If the specs say that it runs at certain Mhz, and Apple runs it at a lower Mhz, then what IS it, if not underclocking?

2. True, there has been heat issues, bot the extra 0.1" on the 15" PB wouldn't have helped. It is due to the CD processor. Emits more heat. Example is the 1" thin TiPB. Used a G4, and didn't get too hot.

You are comparing an old (and slow) processor to a very fast processor. Not an apples to apples comparison.

3. True, they had to abandon the DL burner, but Apple know what they are doing. For one revision, they have to abandon a feuature that hardly anybody uses. Steve is smart. What makes a MacBook?

In other words:

1. Apple is always right
2. When Apple is not right, refer to rule #1.

 

[generik]

If the specs say that it runs at certain Mhz, and Apple runs it at a lower Mhz, then what IS it, if not underclocking?



You are comparing an old (and slow) processor to a very fast processor. Not an apples to apples comparison.



In other words:

1. Apple is always right
2. When Apple is not right, refer to rule #1.

Well said, some are so drunk on the koolaid.

 

[Pressure]

Like I said, just about every reviewer has stated that the MacBooks run very hot. Are you disputing their claims? On the MacBook, Ars Techinca said:

Have you read any reviews of the new laptops? Most of them mention that the machines run hot.

Not at all, I own the product and can comment on it myself. You on the other hand, do not.

I had many concerns myself prior to buying this thin, wonderful and good looking notebook but have found the issues you mentioned to be miniscule.

Sure, it would be great if the MacBook Pro 15" featured an Mobility X1600 that ran at the same speed as the MacBook Pro 17" but it is not a deal breaker for me. I wish in day to day use, that I could lower the default speeds down to 100Mhz to make it consume less power.

If the graphics do not matter, why does Apple advertise that the machine has X1600? And their X1600 is very different from every other X1600 in the market. When they say that their system ships with certain type of GPU, people actually expect to receive a certain type of GPU. Is it really honest to give them a GPU that runs maybe 30% slower than what it should run?

Feel free to point me to where on ATI's own homepage that says that their Mobility X1600 offering has to run at a certain speed, set by ATI themselves?

is THAT your argument? "You are a Windows-user, why do you care about the MacBook?"? Anyway, I'm forced to use Windows at work, but at home, I don't have Windows installed at all.

If you don't like the product, you don't buy it. It is pretty straightforward.
If none of the options Apple offer intriques you, then you are more than welcome to look elsewhere.

The product are as it is. No amount of bad-mouthing, moaning or endless debates are going to change that. You can either get the MacBook or MacBook Pro from Apple.

 

[poppe]

If the graphics do not matter, why does Apple advertise that the machine has X1600? And their X1600 is very different from every other X1600 in the market. When they say that their system ships with certain type of GPU, people actually expect to receive a certain type of GPU. Is it really honest to give them a GPU that runs maybe 30% slower than what it should run?

You are right we should deman that Apple give us 256 mbs since they advertise it. Nothing more nothing less, even though people have clocked their 17" mbps a 433 .

From the reports I remember which I think might have been under bootcamp (maybe not) the 15" stayed at/around 256 while the 17" Fluctuted accross the board with highs to 433...

 

[Gurutech]

Not at all, I own the product and can comment on it myself. You on the other hand, do not.

I had many concerns myself prior to buying this thin, wonderful and good looking notebook but have found the issues you mentioned to be miniscule.

Sure, it would be great if the MacBook Pro 15" featured an Mobility X1600 that ran at the same speed as the MacBook Pro 17" but it is not a deal breaker for me. I wish in day to day use, that I could lower the default speeds down to 100Mhz to make it consume less power.



Feel free to point me to where on ATI's own homepage that says that their Mobility X1600 offering has to run at a certain speed, set by ATI themselves?



If you don't like the product, you don't buy it. It is pretty straightforward.
If none of the options Apple offer intriques you, then you are more than welcome to look elsewhere.

The product are as it is. No amount of bad-mouthing, moaning or endless debates are going to change that. You can either get the MacBook or MacBook Pro from Apple.

I own MBP, so I guess I'm passed.
The problem here is that Apple didn't mention the underclocking, the heat that it produces specifically. If you just look at given specification, MBP looks great. Wow ATI Mobility x1600!! Thin and sleek design!! whatever.
But in reality, no MBP isn't perfect, and Apple sure didn't provide me the correct information. If they told me that the upper side of keyboard and bottom of the laptop gets 70~80 degree celsius, and underclocking of ATI chips(which clearly shows that Apple knew the thermal problem from the beginning.), I wouldn't have to worry about all those heat issues.

I have a major issue with my mbp obviously, and I'm open to see any opinion from anyone regarding this issue.

 

[jaduffy108]

I have no reason to apologize. I am not defending Apple. I am just stating the obvious. You don't have any concrete facts to put on the table or any evidence to support what you are saying.

I am merely showing the holes in your argumentations.

It's not as if my MacBook Pro is an golden example or anything. It has issues and is currently at the nearest Apple Repair facility.

I doubt most Mac buyers are concerned whether or not the graphic card is clocked like any other ATI Mobility X1600. I see no reason why you are comparing a Windows-based notebook to an Apple computer. The difference in the end the for the ordinary Apple user and the deciding factor will still be; can it run Mac OSX or not?

Those who use Mac OSX will buy it. As a Windows user (a wild guess, you are <cough>) you have plenty of other options and are free to look elsewhere. No one is forcing you to buy an Apple computer.

### uh...what was that at the bottom of the post about...never argue with an idiot? I'll follow that advice...and stop here.

 

[jaduffy108]

Well said, some are so drunk on the koolaid.

### sooo true! The amount of MacFUD is troubling...and a great source of humor for pc users everywhere.

 

[DeVizardofOZ]

I wholeheartedly agree...

PowerBook is a quite thin computer. Just 1 inch. And when Apple released MBP, they makde it even thinner: they shaved 1mm off of it. Am I the only one who feels that they shouldn't have done that?

Let's face it, 1mm is peanuts. No-one is going to notice it, unless you compare them side-by-side. And we all know that Apple is having some issues with MBP as it is. It runs hot, the GPU is underclocked, and only 17" model has dual-layer burner. Now, making the internals even more cramped by making the machine even thinner, doesn't exactly help in the heat-department. And the underclocking is an indication of that. I also heard that the missing dual-layer burner is because of the thinner enclosure.

So, instead if giving us an enclosure that is tiny amount thinner, they could have given us a computer that runs a but cooler and has a dual-layer burner. By making the machie tiny bit more sexy, they sacrificed on actual functionality.

A nice thin laptop is wonderful, especially when you see those "bricks" some are manufacturing, awful. 2-5millimeters would in no way take away anything off the beauty of an APPLE if this avoids obvious technical obstacles.

CIAO

 

[Teddy's]

I love knowing that my MBP 17" is thinner when its closed than my Girlfriends Dell 1505 when its open.

Just be careful when you talk to your girlfriend. You don't want to end up with something like "My MBP's thinner than my girlfriend" She will club you to death with her dell laptop.