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Is Apple killing the secondary market for MacBooks?

V

Verloc

macrumors member
Original poster
Nov 9, 2009
83
10
Hard drive, RAM, and battery no longer replaceable/upgradeable. Batteries may actually be glued on from here on out! There are only many cycles in the life of battery.

Are those golden days of selling your Macbook and upgrading becoming a thing of the past? Apple would certainly seem to hope so, I bet. How much money have they lost with people buying a second-hand Mac. It must be quite substantial when you think about it...
 
I understand your disappointment, Apple still makes great computers, and have the best support.

Obsolescence in tech is not only driven by the manufacturers, but by the public's endless thirst for new features. Which I share.

3 years from now, when my new MBP is out of Apple care, I'll be very interested to see where Windows is at. (I've been with them for 20 years until now).

Windows has invested heavily in touchscreen, and that may transform how we use computers. (Right now it' just a novelty) Or gesture will. Or wearable. 3 years from now, one of these things may be popularized. Apple has touch on everything but computers, at this point, but 3 years from now...?

By then I think I'll want something else. Realistically. My current box could be refurbed by Apple and resold somewhere. Even upgraded by them, if they chose. It doesn't have to be scrapped.

Maybe they are not killing the secondary market, just controlling it.
 
I can't believe it. Another thread about the non-upgrade-ability of Apple products.

You're really worried about the secondary market? My iPhones have paid for themselves every two years. Used Apple products are all over eBay, Amazon and Craigslist.

People really need to realize that MANY non-expandable products today used to be "expandable." Technology improves. The need for upgrading changes and or disappears.

Rinse and repeat
 
A Mac (any new model) will last the average end user 3 to 10 years. This is the majority of Apple's consumers.

There are niche users who need/want the latest and greatest. This minority does not fuel Apple's bottom line.

Can you upgrade a Chromebook or one of the newer PC notebooks? Maybe, but not easily.
 
I just bought what I worry might be my last MBP for this reason. Upgradable models are no longer being made, and that's going to drive me back to WinTel laptops. It's a shame, but the gap between windows and OSX is no longer what it was.
Apple is probably right that there's much more money to be made selling sleek toys to hipsters than workhorse machines to people who use them to their potential.
 
disasterdrone said:
I just bought what I worry might be my last MBP for this reason. Upgradable models are no longer being made, and that's going to drive me back to WinTel laptops. It's a shame, but the gap between windows and OSX is no longer what it was.
Apple is probably right that there's much more money to be made selling sleek toys to hipsters than workhorse machines to people who use them to their potential.
Click to expand...

Yes, I never had an iAnything but now I'm on my third Mac. It seems that Macs are becoming just an annoying legacy they have to keep supporting for some more years.

Upgradeability is a must-have and don't know if buying a retina MacBook was a good choice to me. I know it will be usable for the next four years, but how usable? My white MacBook is pretty usable after upgrading ram 4x the original config and a ssd. It's perhaps even faster than when I first turned it on,
so I estimate it will run most recent apps until 2016.

I hardly imagine having the same feeling with my retina MacBook around 2017. If it supported upgrading ram to 32gb it would last longer (no doubt there will be 16gb modules in the next years). Upgradeability is green computing, it's not only the manufacturing process that makes a brand greener.
 
Verloc said:
Batteries may actually be glued on from here on out! There are only many cycles in the life of battery.
Click to expand...

I really can't believe that people still repeat that nonsense. You want a new battery - you go to apple and let them put a new battery in. A single rMBP battery will serve an average user for around 4-5 years. Yeah, you might pay $50 more over the course of 5 years. Big deal.
 
leman said:
I really can't believe that people still repeat that nonsense. You want a new battery - you go to apple and let them put a new battery in. A single rMBP battery will serve an average user for around 4-5 years. Yeah, you might pay $50 more over the course of 5 years. Big deal.
Click to expand...

Only $50? Are you sure? Parts and service? Looks like a big deal since replaceable batteries usually costed more.
 
Verloc said:
Hard drive, RAM, and battery no longer replaceable/upgradeable. Batteries may actually be glued on from here on out! There are only many cycles in the life of battery.

Are those golden days of selling your Macbook and upgrading becoming a thing of the past? Apple would certainly seem to hope so, I bet. How much money have they lost with people buying a second-hand Mac. It must be quite substantial when you think about it...
Click to expand...

1st: It's not like you can't sell Macs that you didn't upgrade yourself!
2nd: Most batteries are still replaceable by Apple
3rd: Many people who but used Macs probably wouldn't have bought a new Mac - hence it's a win-win for Apple.

Not sure what you're really trying to get at with your post.
 
brdeveloper said:
Only $50? Are you sure? Parts and service? Looks like a big deal since replaceable batteries usually costed more.
Click to expand...

Its $199 to replace the battery at Apple. The old pre 2009 user-replaceable batteries costed around $100 and lasted less. The non-user-replaceble one has only to be replaced once in 3-5 years (depending on your usage), the user-replacable ones 1-2 years.

Sure, you can also try a DYI battery replacement in your non-user-serviceable post 2009 MacBook (the non-retina ones). You can get the battery for $119.95 from iFixit. You do risk short-circuiting your logic board if you are not careful ;)

All in all, my point is that the difference between $199 (replacement performed by a professional, one year warranty) and $119 (DYI, risk of damage, limited warranty depending on where you got the battery) is not worth mentioning if we are talking about a once per four years expense. Its what, $20 per year for a professional service? I find it laughable that people would even recognise it as an issue.

The point of replaceable batteries is not saving costs (honestly, $20 or even $100 savings per year is not a saving, its a joke) but having the ability to get a longer charge by switching out the batteries. The current non-replaceable designs do have the advantage of holding a longer charge in the first place. Combined with the fact that they are lighter and have longer lifetime, I consider them to be more of an improvement of user experience than anything else.

Please don't get me wrong, I have a long list of things with Apple that I dislike. I simply can't see why I should put soldered-on RAM and non-user-replaceable battery on that list. In my opinion, they do not degrade the user experience. The only thing I could criticise here is that 16GB RAM upgrade with Apple costs $200 as opposed to the current market price of $170.
 
osx11 said:
1st: It's not like you can't sell Macs that you didn't upgrade yourself!
2nd: Most batteries are still replaceable by Apple
3rd: Many people who but used Macs probably wouldn't have bought a new Mac - hence it's a win-win for Apple.

Not sure what you're really trying to get at with your post.
Click to expand...

What he's getting at is that when you look at low or standard specs for hard drive and ram from 3-4 years ago they are not really useable any more. In olden times that was ok, because you could upgrade, preserving the functionality and so value of the machine. That's no longer possible.
 
disasterdrone said:
What he's getting at is that when you look at low or standard specs for hard drive and ram from 3-4 years ago they are not really useable any more. In olden times that was ok, because you could upgrade, preserving the functionality and so value of the machine. That's no longer possible.
Click to expand...

Apple is making more money by using their current strategy.

Disposable computers are here.

Apple is bringing us to the future.
 
kelon111 said:
Apple is making more money by using their current strategy.

Disposable computers are here.

Apple is bringing us to the future.
Click to expand...

You know, they are catering to a specific market. They've certainly found a market segment that will pay top dollar for beautiful looking machines that sacrifice function for form. They same group who ride fixed gear bicycles, I'm sure (brakes and gears just get in the way).
Thankfully that's not the totality of the market, and other companies will fill the niche of high quality high capability pro laptops. Apple had that market once, but is abandoning it for hipsters.
 
disasterdrone said:
You know, they are catering to a specific market. They've certainly found a market segment that will pay top dollar for beautiful looking machines that sacrifice function for form. They same group who ride fixed gear bicycles, I'm sure (brakes and gears just get in the way).
Thankfully that's not the totality of the market, and other companies will fill the niche of high quality high capability pro laptops. Apple had that market once, but is abandoning it for hipsters.
Click to expand...

This is nonsense. I just bought my first Mac after extensive research, a MBP Haswell because it's the best machine out there for my needs: relatively light, good battery life, super-solid, with a hi-res screen, solid OS and awesome support for 3 years with Apple Care. The older, upgradable Macs are heavier, slower, less battery life, lower res in some cases, etc. And I can't get the same tech support from any other company. Have you even tried calling most companies for tech support? I considered a Lenovo Yoga, but have you heard the horror stories of their warranty support?


Maybe not, maybe you are a fix everything yourself. Fine. But wanting what Apple offers hardly makes me, or anyone, a "hipster". It's a good machine. It does what I need it to do. That is all.
 
Moosebear said:
This is nonsense. I just bought my first Mac after extensive research, a MBP Haswell because it's the best machine out there for my needs: relatively light, good battery life, super-solid, with a hi-res screen, solid OS and awesome support for 3 years with Apple Care. The older, upgradable Macs are heavier, slower, less battery life, lower res in some cases, etc. And I can't get the same tech support from any other company. Have you even tried calling most companies for tech support? I considered a Lenovo Yoga, but have you heard the horror stories of their warranty support?


Maybe not, maybe you are a fix everything yourself. Fine. But wanting what Apple offers hardly makes me, or anyone, a "hipster". It's a good machine. It does what I need it to do. That is all.
Click to expand...

I bet you ride a fixie. ;)
As I've said, there's nothing wrong with the new MBPs as long as most of what you do is web email and Facebooking. It's the pro market that Apple is getting out of.
 
Moosebear said:
This is nonsense. I just bought my first Mac after extensive research, a MBP Haswell because it's the best machine out there for my needs: relatively light, good battery life, super-solid, with a hi-res screen, solid OS and awesome support for 3 years with Apple Care. The older, upgradable Macs are heavier, slower, less battery life, lower res in some cases, etc. And I can't get the same tech support from any other company. Have you even tried calling most companies for tech support? I considered a Lenovo Yoga, but have you heard the horror stories of their warranty support?


Maybe not, maybe you are a fix everything yourself. Fine. But wanting what Apple offers hardly makes me, or anyone, a "hipster". It's a good machine. It does what I need it to do. That is all.
Click to expand...

In the business world , it is a well known fact that Dell , Lenovo , HP , etc. provide great NEXT BUSINESS DAY on site service. If I call IBM (provides warranty for ThinkPads) , I get pretty good tech support for what I need.

Let me give you an example of how good the tech support is. I can call IBM on a Monday and either have the part(s) I need shipped to me by the next day (which would be Tuesday) and install the part(s) myself or I can have a technician come on that same day and install the part(s) for me and I don't have to leave my house or workplace.
 
disasterdrone said:
...It's the pro market that Apple is getting out of.
Click to expand...

I think you and Apple have different ideas as to what constitutes "Pro".

For instance I suspect Apple see's "Pro" as meaning carrying out revenue-earning work, perhaps on a fairly fixed and regular depreciation/upgrade cycle, it may not immediately mean "upgradeable" to Apple.
 
simonsi said:
I think you and Apple have different ideas as to what constitutes "Pro".

For instance I suspect Apple see's "Pro" as meaning carrying out revenue-earning work, perhaps on a fairly fixed and regular depreciation/upgrade cycle, it may not immediately mean "upgradeable" to Apple.
Click to expand...

Not all "professionals" do the same work. Someone who writes articles for a living isn't going to need the same hardware that someone who does CAD uses.
 
simonsi said:
Of course not, so Apple provide a range of standard configurations to suit...
Click to expand...

None of which are capable of supporting more than a tb of storage, even at massive cost. Sure, some professionals make their living writing articles on google docs - that's fine, but I'm clearly talking about people who need access to large amounts of data.
 
disasterdrone said:
None of which are capable of supporting more than a tb of storage, even at massive cost. Sure, some professionals make their living writing articles on google docs - that's fine, but I'm clearly talking about people who need access to large amounts of data.
Click to expand...

Hmmm but firstly the current SSD limit as Apple have switched means a new MBP will come with an SSD that can be approx 70% say (i.e. a 1TB SSD vs a 1.5TB HDD) of the max HDD size available now so the requirement to go bigger at that level, right now is very edge-case. Coupled with commercial depreciation and replacement means Apple probably build for 95% of their market (the other 5% all post here :) )

Secondly most commercial (i.e. Pro), environments involve external drives at the moment (clouds being what they are), for backup purposes at least, consequently the actual need for "Pro's" to wander about with their entire portfolio of work accessible on the laptop is again very edge-case - it exists but it is edge case. Apple clearly believe the benefits of removing the RAM connectors etc for the vast majority that are never upgraded or fail, outweighs the benefits to the minority who use those connectors. And remember thanks to the introduction of SSD we have just lived through the biggest period of effective upgradability ever in personal computing...

I have 1.1TB of combined SSD and HDD in my MBP - because I choose to (photographs and media), I also run quite happily on my MBA with 64GB SSD which is my actual professional requirement, the rest is a great-to-have....
 
simonsi said:
Hmmm but firstly the current SSD limit as Apple have switched means a new MBP will come with an SSD that can be approx 70% say (i.e. a 1TB SSD vs a 1.5TB HDD) of the max HDD size available now so the requirement to go bigger at that level, right now is very edge-case. Coupled with commercial depreciation and replacement means Apple probably build for 95% of their market (the other 5% all post here :) )

Secondly most commercial (i.e. Pro), environments involve external drives at the moment (clouds being what they are), for backup purposes at least, consequently the actual need for "Pro's" to wander about with their entire portfolio of work accessible on the laptop is again very edge-case - it exists but it is edge case. Apple clearly believe the benefits of removing the RAM connectors etc for the vast majority that are never upgraded or fail, outweighs the benefits to the minority who use those connectors. And remember thanks to the introduction of SSD we have just lived through the biggest period of effective upgradability ever in personal computing...

I have 1.1TB of combined SSD and HDD in my MBP - because I choose to (photographs and media), I also run quite happily on my MBA with 64GB SSD which is my actual professional requirement, the rest is a great-to-have....
Click to expand...

You know, all of that is fine, but the argument that YOU don't need it, or that essentially people should use desk-bound desktop replacements if they need that is just nonsense.
Apple is getting out of the market for people who want laptops with a lot of storage. I could now put 4tb of storage in my MBP as and when I need that. If you don't need that, fine - buy a tablet or an rMBP. For those of us who do we're forced to look elsewhere.
I'm sure those of us who want this are not as lucrative as the folks who value form factor more than storage.
 
Verloc said:
Hard drive, RAM, and battery no longer replaceable/upgradeable. Batteries may actually be glued on from here on out! There are only many cycles in the life of battery.

Are those golden days of selling your Macbook and upgrading becoming a thing of the past? Apple would certainly seem to hope so, I bet. How much money have they lost with people buying a second-hand Mac. It must be quite substantial when you think about it...
Click to expand...

It's not much money to get Apple to swap the battery right before you resell.

Yeah, RAM sucks. But just max it out at purchase time. It's not that much more expensive.
 
goMac said:
It's not much money to get Apple to swap the battery right before you resell.

Yeah, RAM sucks. But just max it out at purchase time. It's not that much more expensive.
Click to expand...

Yep - it's storage that is the real killer. You simply can't get a machine capable of what Apple's old MBPs could hold.
 
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