Is Apple Music the death knell for multiple AppleID users?

Discussion in 'Apple Music, Apple Pay, iCloud, Apple Services' started by manu chao, Sep 5, 2015.

  1. manu chao macrumors 603

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    #1
    The iCloud Music Library (iCML) is by definition tied to an AppleID. Switching AppleIDs on a device (or in iTunes) obviously has to replace the Apple Music music (ie, music obtained through the Apple Music subscription as opposed to purchased, ripped or otherwise obtained music) on the device or in iTunes with the one from the iCML associated with that new Apple Music. That is the whole point of the iCML, you can log in anywhere and have access to all 'your' music.

    As long as there is an unmetered internet connection and music can be streamed that is not a big problem. But for offline music that presents a major headache. At best Apple Music gains an easy method to re-download a complete library (or an easily marked subsection of it). On a computer with a broadband connection that could be acceptable. But already downloading a dozen or more GB of music regularly via WiFi on your phone is somewhat of a hassle.

    For those who are wondering, users of multiple AppleIDs (at least if those are from different countries) need to login to each of their respective AppleIDs to get updates for the apps bought with them. And that is before other aspects like wanting to use a particular AppleID because something is only available in one country (or is noticeably cheaper in one country).

    Am I missing something here or has anybody an idea how the iCML could ever easily co-exist with using multiple AppleIDs?
     
  2. Rigby macrumors 601

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    #2
    I don't subscribe to Apple Music, but I do have iTunes Match which also uses the iCML. It's no problem to log out of the Apple ID associated with Match and log in to another ID in order to update apps from another app store (in fact I think it's enough to do that once, then it seems to remember the entitlements for both stores next time you update). Music files that were previously downloaded via Match remain on the device. I would expect the same is true for Apple Music. The difference of course is that music acquired through Apple Music has DRM, so I'm not sure if you will be able to continue playing back that music while logged out of the Apple ID associated with Apple Music. I suggest you give it a try by simply logging out in the iTunes settings on an iOS device and seeing if the music is still playable.

    What you can't do is log in to a second Apple ID and perform actions on that ID that "associate" the device with that ID (see https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204074), because once a device is "associated", there is a 90-day wait period before you can "associate" it with another ID. Updating apps does not "associate", but re-downloading previously purchased content may, so be careful with that. Personally I use iTunes running in a virtual machine to access content purchased with my second Apple ID, since I don't won't to risk locking my primary iTunes..
     
  3. manu chao thread starter macrumors 603

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    #3
    When I go to the App Store app > Updates and tap on Update All, I get prompted to enter the password for the currently used account which is followed by downloading only the updates for apps purchased with that account. When I tap on Update All again to install the updates the apps purchased with my second ID in a different store, I get prompted to change stores.

    In iTunes, I even only see the updates for the apps for the currently used store. I need to switch stores to see the updates for the apps bought from that store.

    Multiple people including myself can attest to Apple Music music disappearing after logging out. And requiring a re-download after logging back in if you want them available offline (of course, Apple Music has its own issues requiring a re-download if you as little as putting your phone down on the table). The difference with iTunes Match is that indeed you are allowed to keep all music files downloaded via it after you quit paying for it. Which is not the case with Apple Music (and thus the Apple Music music has to disappear).

    Which is something that existed already prior to Apple Music, what change was that enabling Apple Music (or maybe only iCML) was added to the list of things that associate a device to an ID.

    This 90-day association limit only ever bit me for re-downloading store content (which you can avoid by always downloading everything at the time of purchase and never deleting it on your computer). With Apple Music, not being able to switch IDs used for Apple Music has been added.
     
  4. Rigby macrumors 601

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    #4
    Yes. It asked me to change to the other store the first time I attempted to update, which I did. Now it updates apps from the other store without requiring me to change stores. I think logging in once authorizes the devices to use apps from the store (i.e. it saves the decryption keys on the device).
    True. I only update directly on the device.
    If that is the case, it seems unnecessary and badly implemented. As mentioned before, music files acquired through Apple Music are DRM encrypted, so there would be no harm in leaving the files where they are and just de-authorizing the device (i.e. erasing the decryption keys) until the user logs back in.
     
  5. manu chao thread starter macrumors 603

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    #5
    I definitely have received this message to switch stores to get updates many, many times. Maybe things get reset when you restart the phone.

    We all probably know about that dreaded 'Other' category of space usage shown in iTunes. If a device keep the music files after logging out (or just disabling iCML), you'll end up with files that are hidden with no way to see or delete them. Of course you could log back in but there are many scenarios where that is not possible, not desirable or not something the user thinks of. Leaving large amounts of files on an iOS device that are invisible and not directly deletable is a very bad idea. And having to go through all music to manually delete all of them to get rid of all Apple Music music is not great way for people who just won't get out of Apple Music.

    The ideal solution of course is to leave the files there for a limited time only and with a clear way to remove them (eg, rebooting could remove them). But that would require a message when logging out saying that the files will be deleted after a reboot). And it is not necessarily an obvious behaviour to the uninitiated. People might log out, just tap the message away without really reading or understanding it and if they then essentially never reboot the device and be stuck with a device that is filled with files they can't see nor know to delete.

    In the end, this all boils down to give users a more global control tool to download and delete files from Apple Music (apart from going through all songs/albums/artists).
     
  6. maxsix Suspended

    maxsix

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    #6
    It's a bit messy presently but I bet that Apple will fix it if there's enough pushback.
     
  7. Rigby macrumors 601

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    #7
    That's definitely not the case here. I am certain that I installed one of the apps from the other app store (Navigon) about a year ago when I clean-installed my iPhone 6. I logged into the other store once to install it and restore some in-app purchases, switched back to the US store, and was never asked to switch back again. It has seen several updates during that time and I have rebooted many times.
    They could remain visible but unplayable (i.e. the Music app would ask you to sign in to Apple Music to play them). What happens in iTunes when you download Apple Music files and then turn off iCML?
     
  8. thekayman macrumors 6502

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    #8
    On my iPhone I have apps from two different stores. I am logged into store 1. Updates show up for all apps, regardless of store. For apps from store 2, you are asked to enter the password for that particular account for apps to update, HOWEVER this only happens once and it does not log you out of your current store.

    In iTunes on the Mac you have to switch stores, though. To avoid this, I guess you can put apps on your phone, update then there as per the above, and then transfer them back to your iTunes library.
     
  9. manu chao, Sep 6, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2015

    manu chao thread starter macrumors 603

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    #9
    So, you could have greyed-out songs that have no indication as to which AppleID they are associated which? And no way to delete them (or should one be able to delete songs while not being logged into that that AppleID). And if these sound like edge cases, as soon as you logged into a different AppleID, what should happen then? Should they still remain? Meaning you could have the detritus of multiple AppleIDs in there?

    No, if people want to get rid of iCML and its files, for whatever reason, disabling iCML should give them that option. Or there would need to be additional settings like: 'Delete all music files from iCML' akin the equally missing: 'Download all songs from iCML (for the currently logged in ID)'.

    What happens with your iTunes library when you merely 'use' iCML is bad enough that people that switch off iCML mostly restore their whole library from backup. Ok, that is slightly exaggerated but I had enough 'damage' that I did restore my library from backup. Mostly it was half my playlists being duplicated and some other odd behaviour that I felt much safer restoring it from backup.

    One of the oddities was that after I decided that iCML was screwing up my library too much and switched it off, I purchased a few songs that I had added to My Music while I had iCML enabled. While the purchase went fine, the songs wouldn't download, I also couldn't download them from the Purchases section. When I looked in my iTunes library folder in the Finder, those song files where actually there but iTunes wouldn't show them and trying to import and play them in iTunes brought messages of my computer not being authorised (it sure seemed that they had stayed there after I logged out of iCML and when I purchased them later they weren't downloaded because they were already there, except that they had Apple Music DRM and wouldn't play. I don't remember the details, but I managed to play them with Quicktime and then was able to save them as newly encoded audio files from Quicktime, at least one of them, the other I ran through yet another application, maybe I even used Audio Hijack Pro).

    In short, I don't know what Apple actually intended to happen and how much was by design and how much was the results of buggy software. At the very least, if my experience was somewhat representative, switching off iCML made the music not show up in iTunes anymore but left 'hidden' files in my library that I would have never noticed if I had tried to purchase the very same songs.
     
  10. manu chao thread starter macrumors 603

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    #10
    Your are right, it doesn't log you out of the App Store anymore (some previous iOS versions certainly did so). But I don't know what your 'once' refers to. 'Once in your lifetime'? 'Once after setting up/restoring an iOS device'? 'Once every time, you actually manually log into a different app store on your device'? I certainly have entered my password many times over the last year.

    In regard to Apple Music, the app updating issue is not really a problem on iOS devices as the App Store and the iTunes Store/Apple Music operate independently in regard to the AppleIDs used. The problem between app updates and Apple Music exists only on iOS. But I really like to buy apps in iTunes, it's faster than on my phone, I also like to buy content from the iTunes store. And in regard to both, I sometime need to switch stores because of availability (or want to switch because of pricing).
     
  11. Rigby macrumors 601

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    #11
    Who said anything about not allowing to delete them?
    Sure, why not? The easiest would be if it could simply authorize music from multiple accounts, i.e. you'd enter the credentials for each store just once and could then play downloaded files from these stores regardless where you are currently logged in. This is how it worked back when all music on iTunes had DRM, and how it still works with apps and downloaded videos (which also have DRM). The iTunes login should only matter for stuff that is in the cloud but not downloaded.
    Deleting downloaded Apple Music files should be no different from deleting any other file.
    Just make a playlist of all songs and download that, done. In the same way, it should be possible to remove downloaded files for an entire playlist with one tap (but this is currently buggy in the music app).
    It's worth repeating that iCML works fine if you only have iTunes Match. I have turned it on an off many times and have no problems whatsoever. It's the combination with Apple Music that screws things up.
     
  12. KUguardgrl13 macrumors 68020

    KUguardgrl13

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    #12
    Apple Music certainly makes things funky. It used to be that you could authorize multiple accounts through iTunes (for the same country, at least; I had my US account as well as two friends' from home sharing and accidental iPod syncing). If you synced an iOS device it would just ask you to login to the other accounts. I have no idea if that still works with Apple music since I no longer have the passwords for those other accounts.
     
  13. Tech198 macrumors G4

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    #13
    Correct.

    If people believe Apple music is the death of multiple AppleID's, then the same is also true with app updates, or anything that is tied to that particular ID.

    Its security.. and it works...

    The only thing i hate is the iTunes and Apples "one-way" approach... u can't delete directly from the cloud only, and not affect local playlist.
     
  14. manu chao, Sep 7, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2015

    manu chao thread starter macrumors 603

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    #14
    Having to re-enter a password on a regular basis is a totally acceptable extra chore. Having to download 20+ GB of data on a regular basis is something quite different. For once, it is simply not an option for most people while they are away from WiFi.
     
  15. manu chao, Sep 7, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2015

    manu chao thread starter macrumors 603

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    #15
    iCML is a common dataset synced across multiple devices. Much like Dropbox. Imagine having a folder with files from multiple Dropbox accounts in them. With no indication to which account a given file belonged. Do you really think that is a good solution?

    What you suggest is a kind of shared inbox as it exists with email clients. That would certainly be a way to solve this but you need the extra UI to allow people to see what belongs to which email account. And the Music app UI is already quite complex. And if the ability to be logged into multiple AppleIDs at the same time existed, the whole premise of this thread disappears. But like with emails, the extra UI needed doesn't stop at the inbox. If you added a song (akin to composing an email), there would need to be UI to decide to which account's iCML it should be added.

    And the iCML only works if you are paying for Apple Music. Do you think paying for Apple Music on multiple accounts is a realistic situation?

    But this is not data you own, it's data you only rent. That is the big difference to iTunes Match. You cannot keep access to the data without being logged into your account. Log out and the stuff has to disappear (at least the ability to use it) because you are no longer authorised to use it. With iCML everything is just a mirror of your online music library. On iOS devices this is strictly enforced, everything on your device is a mirror of your online library. The server side only differentiates betweens songs from its catalogue and the ones uploaded 'by the user'. And the iOS side doesn't even see that difference. Only in iTunes do songs have additional metadata as to whether they belong to you or are only rented from Apple Music.
    Well, deleting an email (assuming IMAP of course) is different than deleting a file. You cannot delete it only in one place.
    And that is how Apple Music should work? Requiring the user to create a playlist to enable a feature the service actually needs to be used properly? And would this playlist automatically update when new songs are added to ones iCML? Currently smart playlists only get updated in iTunes.
    And it is worth repeating that Apple Music has its problem with multiple accounts exactly because it is not like iTunes Match where you have a right to keep all downloaded music. With Apple Music, you are renting music. Rented music has to disappear once you are no longer authorised to play it.
     
  16. Rigby macrumors 601

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    #16
    Today I can have apps from different accounts on my phone "with no indication". Where's the problem?
    On the contrary. Everything would be far more confusing.
    Exactly. That's why you can only log in to one account at a time. But that doesn't have anything to do with authorizing playback of songs that are already downloaded on the phone.
    It also works if you pay only for iTunes Match.
    Huh?
    Of course you can. You keep confusing cloud access with DRM entitlements. Apple Music files have timed DRM. The mechanism is similar as having a rented movie on your iOS device. Those won't be deleted either just because you log out of the iTunes store.
    You are authorized as long as you have a subscription. It's enough if the system checks once a month if you are still subscribed. There is no technical reason why the user should be constantly logged in for that. By that logic, it should also block you from playing your music when you are offline.
    Apple Music files are encrypted on iOS devices as well. Of course the Music app sees the difference.
    Obviously I was referring to music files. When I turn off iCML, it does not delete my iTunes Match files (thank god). It only deletes files that I tell it to delete. I see no reason why Apple Music should be any different.
    Why not? It works well enough for iTunes Match. Automatically downloading my entire library would be a useless and dangerous operation for me, because my music library is bigger than the memory of my iPhone.
    Yes. And you are authorized as long as you are a subcriber, not as long as you happen to be logged in.
     
  17. manu chao, Sep 7, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2015

    manu chao thread starter macrumors 603

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    #17
    That is where I think you are wrong (see further down).
    Well, iCML works different if you don't have an iTunes Match subscription (actually when you have iTunes Match, you are using iTunes Match for the music you own and not iCML, and iTunes Match has different rules). Without iTunes Match, you cannot have Apple Music files (ie, rented files) next to owned files. iCML treats them all the same on iOS devices.
    Have you actually used iCML in conjunction with Apple Music? And I don't mean whether you have continued to use iTunes Match after Apple Music was introduced, ie, have you enabled iCML and added songs from Apple Music to it? Because if you have not added songs from Apple Music (ie, rented songs) and keep iTunes Match enabled, you are not using iCML, you are still using iTunes Match which has different rules than iCML. And you are ascribing behaviour of iTunes Match to iCML.

    With no active iTunes Match subscription, once you have enabled iCML one of two things will happen (you have the choice): (1) iCML either replaces all music on your device with the one from your iCML but without downloading the files, or (2) it adds all songs currently on the device to your iCML if those songs were added by other means than iCML to the device, eg, by syncing with iTunes, in addition to adding all songs in your iCML to the local Music app. If after that you sign out of the iTunes & App Store (in System Preferences > iTunes & App Store) and open the Music app, you are greeted with an empty app and are asked to sign in with an AppleID.

    Apple Music doesn't work like renting movies from the iTunes store. Individual music files don't have a time stamp. Devices don't have time stamps. Accounts have time stamps. If you are logged into an account that has an active Apple Music subscription, you have the right to play Apple Music songs, otherwise you don't. Enabling iCML is an addition to the streaming feature of Apple Music. It acts like bookmarking songs. But iCML on iOS devices (again for people who don't have iTunes Match) treats all songs as if they came from the rental/streaming service Apple Music (obviously with the enhancement of having copies of the songs from your iTunes library that couldn't be matched to the Apple Music catalogue).
     
  18. bushido Suspended

    bushido

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    #18
    thats why i went back to Spotify. I have a german ID that i only really use to update old apps and my US apple ID with AM and everything else really. now everytime i switch it gets rid of my offline music. i am not here for that. THANK GOD that does not happen with the iCloud Photo library btw
     
  19. Rigby macrumors 601

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    #19
    No. I have not signed up for Apple Music and I'm glad that I didn't given all the problems people are having. Maybe I got it all wrong, but I thought we were discussing how it *should* work, not how it actually does?!
    The decryption keys that enable the device to play back DRM-protected content have an expiration date. Once the keys have expired, the device checks whether the user is still a subscriber and updates the keys accordingly. There is no technical reason to "throw away the keys" of an active subscriber while he/she is not logged in.
    If that's how it works, that sucks.
     
  20. manu chao, Oct 11, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2015

    manu chao thread starter macrumors 603

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    #20
    There is another aspect, I was just reminded of. Enabling Apple Music (even without also using iCML) 'associates the computer or device to that AppleID'. The same way enabling automatic downloads for music, movies or TV shows (as in automatic download onto device A when purchased on device B) does (automatic downloading of apps doesn't trigger this). Being associated means you cannot download any type of media (music, movies, TV shows) at a later point in time except directly with the purchasing process.

    Which I thought was fine, I just have to make sure to always click 'Download Now' when purchasing stuff and not deferring this until later. Except that this does not work for season passes for TV shows where new episodes are released on an on-going basis, ie, a while after the purchase date. In short, buy a season pass with account A and then enable Apple Music with account B and you won't be able to download newly released episodes. You have to wait 90 days before you can change the association and download new episodes.

    The workaround I was lucky to still have available to me was that I had associated my iPad with account A (by enabling Apple Music with account A on it) and my computer with account B. So I could still download new episodes on my iPad but iTunes wouldn't copy them to the computer and I had to use a third-party tool, iExplorer, to extract them from my iPad to my computer and then manually add them to iTunes (and manually add all metadata). iTunes could then play them fine and also sync them back to my iPad.
     
  21. Tech198, Oct 15, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2015

    Tech198 macrumors G4

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    #21
    What about Family sharing ?

    In fact i think that will be the biggest killer...

    While u can have multiple Apple ID and use family sharing (u to 6 people), its ok, providing u keep your Apple id as said country... and each user keeps then in the same country as yours.

    e.g if i keep my AppeID as U.S, i can access it from anywhere i can get online. not sure about family plan cos i don't have that, but i believe it would be the same. Can u have a family sharing and still access it overseas if your country listed in Apple account remain unchanged?
     
  22. Mac 128 macrumors 601

    Mac 128

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    #22
    I am using family plan to easily access all of the apps and music I have bought under different IDs over the years. If Apple isn't going to allow me to merge my Apple IDs, then this is the next best thing. All IDs are available at once without logging out and all I have to do is switch between them on all of my devices.
     

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