Is Catalina as bad as it looks on this board?

honestone33

macrumors 6502a
Most of what you stated above is fine. But I need to make some points in disagreement with some of what you said:

1. I do have sympathy for those folks who have issues. But in a good amount of instances, it is due to lack of preparation. I consistently make the point that before moving to/upgrading to any Mac OS, it is imperative to insure that all third party apps one uses are compatible with the new OS. In my particular case, I already know what those apps are, and I also know that not all of them will be ready for the initial version of the new Mac OS. And also for myself, I always have to wait until Tech Tool Pro has an upgrade available. That alone always delays my move to the new Mac OS. For Sierra and High Sierra, I did not move until the .2 version of each of those was released. Same with Catalina. For Mojave, it was the .3 release.

2. As has been WELL Stated before, and on numerous, numerous occasions, it is never a good idea to install the initial version of a new Mac OS. It is, time and time again, riddled with bugs, issues, problems, etc. But I continually see folks "rush" to install the that first version, and thus have issues. This also goes hand in hand with the point I made above, about waiting. Additionally, by waiting, one can see, and get a handle on, issues which folks are encountering. That is always a good thing.

3. I have seen where some folks want to just upgrade in place, but they skip anywhere from 2 to 4 versions of versions of the Mac OS. That is also inherently risky (assuming the issue of third party apps has been addressed by the individual, but alas, I have seen too many instances where that has not been done/completed). And for any Mac OS before Mojave, in "getting" to Mojave or Catalina, there is the new APFS standard that Apple implemented in Mojave, and further refined in Catalina. Once again, not much (if any) thought is given to that.
 
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revmacian

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Most of what you stated above is fine. But I need to make some points in disagreement with some of what you said:

1. I do have sympathy for those folks who have issues. But in a good amount of instances, it is due to lack of preparation. I consistently make the point that before moving to/upgrading to any Mac OS, it is imperative to insure that all third party apps one uses are compatible with the new OS. In my particular case, I already know what those apps are, and I also know that not all of them will be ready for the initial version of the new Mac OS. And also for myself, I always have to wait until Tech Tool Pro has an upgrade available. That alone always delays my move to the new Mac OS. For Sierra and High Sierra, I did not move until the .2 version of each of those was released. Same with Catalina. For Mojave, it was the .3 release.

2. As has been WELL Stated before, and on numerous, numerous occasions, it is never a good idea to install the initial version of a new Mac OS. It is, time and time again, riddled with bugs, issues, problems, etc. But I continually see folks "rush" to install the that first version, and thus have issues. This also goes hand in hand with the point I made above, about waiting. Additionally, by waiting, one can see, and get a handle on, issues which folks are encountering. That is always a good thing.

3. I have seen where some folks want to just upgrade in place, but they skip anywhere from 2 to 4 versions of versions of the Mac OS. That is also inherently risky (assuming the issue of third party apps has been addressed by the individual, but alas, I have seen too many instances where that has not been done/completed). And for any Mac OS before Mojave, in "getting" to Mojave or Catalina, there is the new APFS standard that Apple implemented in Mojave, and further refined in Catalina. Once again, not much (if any) thought is given to that.
A “look before you leap” approach? I can totally agree with that. Thank you.
 
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fisherking

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How many volumes and containers will disk utility have chopped my poor old drive up into with the next update?
is this a seriou
There has been quite some discussion about Catalina & the new MP7,1 over on that forum. My impression to date has been that the hardware is excellent, but Catalina is just dreadful. Have posted again here:

With all due respect: there is nothing more annoying & unhelpful than the casual chime-in that 'it works here ...'. Seems to be a plague on blogs.

Clearly, installs can vary greatly depending on specific use assumptions & one should always try to present a little empathy for those who may be having serious issues and are understandably upset (& with such a high purchase cost for a self-proclaimed 'pro' computer').

eg, if I were using Apple-only apps, perhaps could be smoother sailing, who knows. But I very much agree with those who unhappy with Catalina. Its a complete dog. Case use here (just for example):
exact same software and usage (expect for Logic & FCPX of course) on Window 10 Pro on a Dell T7910 workstation; exact same installs for a Mac Pro 5,1 running Mojave.

  • DAWs: Nuendo, Wavelab, Studio One, Ableton Live, Logic Pro. + many audio plugins and virtual instruments including Universal Audio, Sound Toys, Steinberg Absolute 4, Native Instruments Komplete Ultimate, etc.
  • NLEs: DaVinci Resolve Studio 16, FinalCutPro, ditto re. plugins including industry standards Neat Video OFX, Neat Video FCPX, FilmConvert Pro, etc.
  • Productivity apps including MS Office, Acrobat Pro, Chronosync, Carbon Copy Cloner, Handbreak, etc.
  • Driver & CPs for RME UFX+, Decklink MiniMonitor 4k, SoftRAID, etc.
Suffice it to say - in my context and studio - there are many unresolved issues here in relation to the awful Catalina. *None* of that is present with the same installs in Win104W 1909 or Mojave.

Without picking though all of that, there have also been enormous issues with security more broadly. That includes (of course) disabling security and allowing external boot from the BIOS ... excuse me, ahem, UEFI. abeit needing special command and another wired keyboard .. (give me F2 to the BIOS anyday).

Past that, then there are many install issues that require Security & Privacy CP intervention. And that is inconsistent, sometimes clear, sometimes poor OS handling of multiple, confusing screens; sometimes nothing at all to warn. Eg, Logic Pro would not run some (expensive) AU plugins; turns out one had to manually dig around Security & Privacy, then the Authorization [sic] tab to allow ... a week goes by ...

The silly 'notarization' behaviour where the installer will not run (no explanation), but then you right-click, & you choose 'don't open' or 'open' ... go figure ... who in Apple thought that was useful?

Speaking of installs, many apps had to be dumped or at least required expensive update costs (this is not a 32 bit issue). Needless to say, these apps run perfectly on latest Windows & Mojave.

File permissions, what a drag. On and on and on. Suffice it to say, when I migrated across hundreds of project files to a new RAID 4 volume on the MP7,1, some apps like Nuendo would not load saying 'read only' or later not be able to save, again citing 'read only'. This is despite all dirs being set as admin RW & user RW ... the only eventual fix was to set all dirs to Everyone RW (security anyone?) ... another week goes by. Ditto numerous file permissions problems with Carbon Copy Cloner, particularly in booting from another volume & attempting to restore.

Yes, I fully agree with the Catlina complaints, is dreadful, and all in the name of placebo 'security' which is meant to reassure by all those bazillions of password requests and 'are you sure' prompts ... please ... this is 'pro'?. Mostly just very annoying & time consuming. From what I've experienced - and has been the case in many earlier, difficult MacOS rollouts - the silver lining will be firmware and OS software updates over (say) this next quarter in particular, and then we 'should' be more fully leverage our investment in the MP7,1.
full disclosure: i did not read all of that. but perhaps the plague on the forum is the whining, or, to be fair... it's equally the whiners and those who say it's fine.

btw, logic X and FCPX are both working beautifully on catalina (as are all my logic plugins).
 

honestone33

macrumors 6502a
A “look before you leap” approach? I can totally agree with that. Thank you.
You're welcome.

I did forget to mention one other thing: I have yet to see anything "earth shattering" in new versions of the Mac OS that would compel me to rush and install it right away. And this has been happening for just about any version fo the Mac OS I have used/installed.

Truthfully, I would have been fine staying with Mojave. It worked quite well, was stable, and is still being updated by Apple (mainly for Security reasons). But I prefer to use the latest version of each Mac OS (as long as it runs fine, and is stable). Given that I typically wait until the .2 (and in one instance, the .3) release, that is typically what happens.

I do have an issue, however, that I have to deal with: most likely, Catalina is the last Mac OS I can run on my trusty late 2012 Mac Mini. I have known this ever since Catalina was first announced back in June. The machine has faithfully served me well for over 7 years. I plan on buying a 2018 Mac Mini model next Saturday, down in Oregon, to resolve that issue.
 
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freakomac

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Nov 21, 2014
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Until you can get it working again, I wonder if Hot Corners would be of help to you (Screensaver settings). You can set a Hot Corner to put the display to sleep or set one to disable screensaver - there are other settings there.
I need a quick toggle to keep display always on, hot corners I don't think allows that. As someone else suggested here I going to try the Terminal method or the Amphetamine app.
 
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revmacian

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I need a quick toggle to keep display always on, hot corners I don't think allows that. As someone else suggested here I going to try the Terminal method or the Amphetamine app.
macOS has a utility called Caffeinate. From the man page:
Code:
caffeinate -- prevent the system from sleeping on behalf of a utility
More info:
Code:
man caffeinate
 

Floored

macrumors newbie
Jan 17, 2020
19
4
'time and tech moves on'

Forwards into a world of pure promotional material in a never ending loop of advertising or backwards where you're trying to find a socket to recharge your petrol driven calculator?
 

subjonas

macrumors 68020
Feb 10, 2014
2,321
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but perhaps the plague on the forum is the whining, or, to be fair... it's equally the whiners and those who say it's fine.
Hm what do you mean by “fine”? People complain, you can’t stop human nature, so you just tolerate it or ignore it. In that sense, it is fine. Trying to aggressively silence their negativity only adds more negativity—and to a worse degree because it usually takes the form of ridicule or personal attacks, which also derails the thread. To me, that’s far more toxic than the original complaint.
 

Ploki

macrumors 601
Jan 21, 2008
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There has been quite some discussion about Catalina & the new MP7,1 over on that forum. My impression to date has been that the hardware is excellent, but Catalina is just dreadful. Have posted again here:

With all due respect: there is nothing more annoying & unhelpful than the casual chime-in that 'it works here ...'. Seems to be a plague on blogs.

Clearly, installs can vary greatly depending on specific use assumptions & one should always try to present a little empathy for those who may be having serious issues and are understandably upset (& with such a high purchase cost for a self-proclaimed 'pro' computer').

eg, if I were using Apple-only apps, perhaps could be smoother sailing, who knows. But I very much agree with those who unhappy with Catalina. Its a complete dog. Case use here (just for example):
exact same software and usage (expect for Logic & FCPX of course) on Window 10 Pro on a Dell T7910 workstation; exact same installs for a Mac Pro 5,1 running Mojave.

  • DAWs: Nuendo, Wavelab, Studio One, Ableton Live, Logic Pro. + many audio plugins and virtual instruments including Universal Audio, Sound Toys, Steinberg Absolute 4, Native Instruments Komplete Ultimate, etc.
  • NLEs: DaVinci Resolve Studio 16, FinalCutPro, ditto re. plugins including industry standards Neat Video OFX, Neat Video FCPX, FilmConvert Pro, etc.
  • Productivity apps including MS Office, Acrobat Pro, Chronosync, Carbon Copy Cloner, Handbreak, etc.
  • Driver & CPs for RME UFX+, Decklink MiniMonitor 4k, SoftRAID, etc.
Suffice it to say - in my context and studio - there are many unresolved issues here in relation to the awful Catalina. *None* of that is present with the same installs in Win104W 1909 or Mojave.

Without picking though all of that, there have also been enormous issues with security more broadly. That includes (of course) disabling security and allowing external boot from the BIOS ... excuse me, ahem, UEFI. abeit needing special command and another wired keyboard .. (give me F2 to the BIOS anyday).

Past that, then there are many install issues that require Security & Privacy CP intervention. And that is inconsistent, sometimes clear, sometimes poor OS handling of multiple, confusing screens; sometimes nothing at all to warn. Eg, Logic Pro would not run some (expensive) AU plugins; turns out one had to manually dig around Security & Privacy, then the Authorization [sic] tab to allow ... a week goes by ...

The silly 'notarization' behaviour where the installer will not run (no explanation), but then you right-click, & you choose 'don't open' or 'open' ... go figure ... who in Apple thought that was useful?

Speaking of installs, many apps had to be dumped or at least required expensive update costs (this is not a 32 bit issue). Needless to say, these apps run perfectly on latest Windows & Mojave.

File permissions, what a drag. On and on and on. Suffice it to say, when I migrated across hundreds of project files to a new RAID 4 volume on the MP7,1, some apps like Nuendo would not load saying 'read only' or later not be able to save, again citing 'read only'. This is despite all dirs being set as admin RW & user RW ... the only eventual fix was to set all dirs to Everyone RW (security anyone?) ... another week goes by. Ditto numerous file permissions problems with Carbon Copy Cloner, particularly in booting from another volume & attempting to restore.

Yes, I fully agree with the Catlina complaints, is dreadful, and all in the name of placebo 'security' which is meant to reassure by all those bazillions of password requests and 'are you sure' prompts ... please ... this is 'pro'?. Mostly just very annoying & time consuming. From what I've experienced - and has been the case in many earlier, difficult MacOS rollouts - the silver lining will be firmware and OS software updates over (say) this next quarter in particular, and then we 'should' be more fully leverage our investment in the MP7,1.
Part of what you said is either inaccurate or also present in mojave.

DAWs for the most part work fine. My Logic rig + 150 3rd party plugins work fine. (UA and NI both released compatibility statements months ago)

Both my Firefaces, 400 and 800 work fine. I'm getting the UFX+ in a few months but i'm not at all concerned since RME made sure it works about a week after catalina was released.

The "unidentified developer" window has been present since Mojave and it behaves exactly the same in Catalina, because apple hasn't yet started to enforce notarisation.
I'm pretty sure there's gonna be a problem once they do, but so far, it's as problematic/annoying as mojave.
 

fisherking

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Jul 16, 2010
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Hm what do you mean by “fine”? People complain, you can’t stop human nature, so you just tolerate it or ignore it. In that sense, it is fine. Trying to aggressively silence their negativity only adds more negativity—and to a worse degree because it usually takes the form of ridicule or personal attacks, which also derails the thread. To me, that’s far more toxic than the original complaint.
it's a reasonable point; gotta not let the whining frustrate me. just wish people could ask for help, discuss issues, without the 'sky is falling' rants. but i hear you 👍
 

xnsys

macrumors regular
Aug 20, 2018
139
96
it's a reasonable point; gotta not let the whining frustrate me. just wish people could ask for help, discuss issues, without the 'sky is falling' rants. but i hear you 👍
I've worked in IT one way or the other most of my life, what may not seem important to you is to someone else.

When the complaints came in about this issue, for some the sky was falling, imagine saving something you had spent hours working on, only yo discover that you couldn’t save because of an OS nasty bug, and you’re now about to loose your work as the only way is to hard reset it.

Might not seem important to you, and could easily think, oh well sorry you will have to do that again, in one incident the poor woman working on a design had to get it ready for a meeting on Monday lunch, 4pm on Friday she had finished and it crashed, so she ended up having to work over her weekend to re-do her work.

And this hasn’t been an isolated incident - hours lost because of it, and time is money...
 

revmacian

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I've worked in IT one way or the other most of my life, what may not seem important to you is to someone else.

When the complaints came in about this issue, for some the sky was falling, imagine saving something you had spent hours working on, only yo discover that you couldn’t save because of an OS nasty bug, and you’re now about to loose your work as the only way is to hard reset it.

Might not seem important to you, and could easily think, oh well sorry you will have to do that again, in one incident the poor woman working on a design had to get it ready for a meeting on Monday lunch, 4pm on Friday she had finished and it crashed, so she ended up having to work over her weekend to re-do her work.

And this hasn’t been an isolated incident - hours lost because of it, and time is money...
We have to remember that there are two different types of complaining:

1. Someone complains about a problem, someone else chimes in with a solution, the complainer takes the advice, implements it.. solves the problem and moves on.

2. Someone complains about a problem, someone else chimes in with a solution, the complainer says "I don't feel like doing that" and continues complaining despite several attempts by others to implement a possible solution.

The first example is productive. The second example.. not so much.
 

Argyboy

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Feb 26, 2017
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Not had any problems with it myself, apart from the annoying lack of support for 32-bit apps. I've got one machine running it but my others will remain on older MacOS versions.
 

xnsys

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Aug 20, 2018
139
96
You’re forgetting the 3rd type - the group of people we have here - those that complain about the problem to see if there is help, finds loads Of other users in the same boat and no solution, apart from one that the manufacturer can only resolve.
 

fisherking

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Jul 16, 2010
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I've worked in IT one way or the other most of my life, what may not seem important to you is to someone else.

When the complaints came in about this issue, for some the sky was falling, imagine saving something you had spent hours working on, only yo discover that you couldn’t save because of an OS nasty bug, and you’re now about to loose your work as the only way is to hard reset it.

Might not seem important to you, and could easily think, oh well sorry you will have to do that again, in one incident the poor woman working on a design had to get it ready for a meeting on Monday lunch, 4pm on Friday she had finished and it crashed, so she ended up having to work over her weekend to re-do her work.

And this hasn’t been an isolated incident - hours lost because of it, and time is money...
did 15 years freelance mac support in nyc; in my humble experience, every version of the OS has had bugs, and every version has had happy users and users with issues. one woman's design issue is just that, and there are parallel stories thru every mac os.

complaining and asking for help is different than whining; just saying!
 
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xnsys

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did 15 years freelance mac support in nyc; in my humble experience, every version of the OS has had bugs, and every version has had happy users and users with issues. one woman's design issue is just that, and there are parallel stories thru every mac os.

complaining and asking for help is different than whining; just saying!
Wouldnt you agree that when there is no solution for when you complain and ask for help, then that could be classed as whining?

There is no known cure for the SMB, Graphics cars sleep issue and other sleep related issues at present, just waiting for Apple to fix - unless you know of a fix?

The only whining I’ve seen is from a me too movement where people are voicing their concerns and adding their name to the list of effected users.
 

fisherking

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Wouldnt you agree that when there is no solution for when you complain and ask for help, then that could be classed as whining?

There is no known cure for the SMB, Graphics cars sleep issue and other sleep related issues at present, just waiting for Apple to fix - unless you know of a fix?

The only whining I’ve seen is from a me too movement where people are voicing their concerns and adding their name to the list of effected users.
then you haven't been reading much on these forums; there is a lot of whining, of 'catalina sucks' and 'my opinion is the one that matters'. sure there are issues; but if you look back on the macrumors forum, every new os has threads filled with issues. every one. so, catalina is just this years great/terrible/everything in-between OS.

all i'm saying is, discussion is great; complaining and asking for help is great. but whining, and ranting, is tiresome, and accomplishes nothing.
 

xnsys

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Aug 20, 2018
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There is a lot, and much more than any other OS that Apple has ever released, and all saying the same things...

I don’t see it as whining, just people who spend a lot of money investing into Apple hardware, over the odds of everything else, and by paying a premium you expect it to function impeccably - not be riddled with work effecting bugs, costing time and money...

if things worked properly, and as expected for the price you pay, then there would be no ranting...

Unless you are suggesting that people pay over their hard earned cash, paying more than any other manufacturers counterpart, and just expect it to be behaving the way it does...
 
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fisherking

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There is a lot, and much more than any other OS that Apple has ever released, and all saying the same things...

I don’t see it as whining, just people who spend a lot of money investing into Apple hardware, over the odds of everything else, and by paying a premium you expect it to function impeccably - not be riddled with work effecting bugs, costing time and money...

if things worked properly, and as expected for the price you pay, then there would be no ranting...

Unless you are suggesting that people pay over their hard earned cash, paying more than any other manufacturers counterpart, and just expect it to be behaving the way it does...
yeah, i stand by my comments.

when you say there is 'more than any other OS...", what are you basing that on? some facts you obtained somewhere? or? because this forum seems more full of people than it was a few years back; more users, more opinions.

again (& i promise, for the last time); there are ALWAYS bugs, it's the nature of software. and right now, we're just dealing with the present OS. next year, it will the same thing all over again, with people proclaiming that '10.16 is apple's worst OS ever", and "don't install 10.16!! i have an issue, which means that everyone has an issue!"...etc, etc. etc.
 
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xnsys

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I’m basing it on the feedback I’m getting from my clients, last time I had this level of anger was with 10.10 and WiFi issues - which I had to roll back to 10.9...

Out of curiosity, I will run a report on Monday for the past 10 years and see how many calls have been logged for Mac crashing issues....

yes, I agree that there are always bugs, it’s not that they are there, but how quickly they get resolved - this major crashing one has been there since the release of 10.15. Supplemental patches would be accepted if they fix bugs.
 

fisherking

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I’m basing it on the feedback I’m getting from my clients, last time I had this level of anger was with 10.10 and WiFi issues - which I had to roll back to 10.9...

Out of curiosity, I will run a report on Monday for the past 10 years and see how many calls have been logged for Mac crashing issues....

yes, I agree that there are always bugs, it’s not that they are there, but how quickly they get resolved - this major crashing one has been there since the release of 10.15. Supplemental patches would be accepted if they fix bugs.
yet, how many people are running catalina without any major issues? and do your clients call you with happy news, or only when they need help?

plus... a lot of people aren't prepared for the 64bit era; i've been asked about office, the adobe apps...

so yes; broken things need to be fixed. but, without actual statistics, no one knows what percentage of catalina users are unhappy, vs... any previous mac os.
 

xnsys

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users will call when there is something wrong, this gets categorised into various areas, and then is searchable for future reference to help other engineers if there is any issues that are similar.

What this will be able to tell me is how many calls were raised for each and every OS that has been released, we break it down into which ever version of macOS 10 and then the type of call.

Our user base is roughly stay the same over the 10 years, So what we can do is break it down to the number of calls that we’ve had per OS for system faults.

if each call is then broken up for the OS for the release date up until a year later, will be able to see which OS had the most calls.
 

fisherking

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users will call when there is something wrong, this gets categorised into various areas, and then is searchable for future reference to help other engineers if there is any issues that are similar.

What this will be able to tell me is how many calls were raised for each and every OS that has been released, we break it down into which ever version of macOS 10 and then the type of call.

Our user base is roughly stay the same over the 10 years, So what we can do is break it down to the number of calls that we’ve had per OS for system faults.

if each call is then broken up for the OS for the release date up until a year later, will be able to see which OS had the most calls.
and is the macuser base the same size as it was, say, 10 years ago? because percentages have more value than numbers. how many macusers do you speak for? 10? 100? more? less?

you can argue all day (me, i promise to withdraw from this thread right NOW), but i stand by this: all software has issues, all versions of apple's OS have had issues, and next year's version... will have issues.

and still, many people just install a new OS, don't post on forums like this, and either get help for an issue, or go about their business... because they have no urgent issues.

as you can see from this very thread, many users are happy on the new OS, which represents... the people on this thread, and tells us little about the world at large.
 

xnsys

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Aug 20, 2018
139
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The user has base has increased by 20% wish over the 10 years.

I'm not arguing, I'm agreeing with you that all software has it's issues - what I am saying is that this 10.15 release has issues that are more noticeable and effecting a lot of people than previous OS releases (10.10 excluded!). Users will be happy, but that could be because they don't use the effected parts of the OS.
 
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