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ReanimationLP said:
Their EM64T is really actually AMD64 tech.

It's a specification, not a technology. The tech is involved in the implementation of the instruction set, which is most certainly specific to the chip and the manufacturer, not shared between companies. AMD did a great job in creating the x86-64 spec, making the first implementation, and making it a success, though.

The Rest of this Thread said:
Hysteria, FUD, Misinformation, and lack of common sense, with the occasional attempt to set things right

Let's see, we've had
"The magic powers of RISC will overcome any other disadvantage",
"64 bit makes things way faster",
"Apple should make computers that never become obsolete",
"Intel stole AMD's tech",
"CoreDuo is just a Pentium 3",
"Companies are hiding secret features from us because they hate us",
and one I'd never heard before "Universal binaries can't be optimized"....

Congrats, people. That's actually quite a good percentage of the incorrect* whining about the Intel switch I've heard on the net, compressed into one thread, and even a new addition!


*there's been some correct whining as well, but I didn't see much of it here.
 
64 bit?

I don't even know of any software that is even 64 bit native, at least nothing I use now.

Mike
 
64-bit does make things run much faster, and core duo is definitly not 64-bit.

I just replaced a mac mini 1.4 (with 1GB RAM) with a core duo mini (512MB). The core duo seemed to boot and run slower. Possibly, because of Rosetta emulation.

$800 wasted on an upgrade. (For now, until I get 2GB 667mhz memory!) No real world performance boost. (For now, until everything goes universal!)

:)
 
localnet said:
I don't even know of any software that is even 64 bit native, at least nothing I use now.

Mike

Mathematica is. OSX doesn't support 64 bit software with a GUI though, so it has to run as two separate programs; a 32 bit GUI and a 64 bit core.
 
chatin said:
64-bit does make things run much faster, and core duo is definitly not 64-bit.

I just replaced a mac mini 1.4 (with 1GB RAM) with a core duo mini (512MB). The core duo seemed to boot and run slower. Possibly, because of Rosetta emulation.

$800 wasted on an upgrade. (For now, until I get 2GB 667mhz memory!) No real world performance boost. (For now, until everything goes universal!)

:)

Well, G4 in your previous mini wasn't 64-bit, either. And the entire OS, plus every single Apple program, are 100% native, no Rosetta involved. Now, if you're talking about games, or Photoshop, then correct, Rosetta would be involved (plus the graphics chip being a little slower,) would make the Intel mini slower than a PPC mini. But only for non-native apps! (Heck, my MacBook Pro is faster through Rosetta than my 1.25 GHz eMac native.)

As for 64-bit automatically making things run 'much faster'. Bollocks. In PPC, the mere addition of 64-bitness doesn't do squat. What makes the G5 way faster than G4 is the vastly superior PLATFORM. If a dual, 2.5 GHz dual-core G4 were placed on a 1/2 speed system bus (1.25 GHz,) rather than the 166MHz it topped out at, and with a dual-channel DDR2 memory controller, it would be just as fast as a G5. The ONLY thing 64-bit adds in PPC is the ability to address more than 4 GB of memory per process. (The technology already exists to have the whole SYSTEM address over 4 GB, even on a 32-bit system, so the only benefit of 64-bit now is for more than 4 GB to an individual process.)

Now, on x86, on the other hand... There is a tangible, but slight, benefit to moving to 64-bit. This comes from the fact that the x86-64 architecture (or AMD64, or EM64T, if you prefer; they all mean the same thing,) has more registers than the 32-bit x86 architecture. This can give a small but measurable speed boost. (We're talking 5%, tops.) And this only applies for 64-bit applications. Unlike PPC's 64-bit implementation, which allows 32-bit applications to run side-by-side with 64-bit with ZERO performance hit, x86 processors must be running entirely in 64-bit mode, or entirely in 32-bit mode. This means that if you are running in 64-bit mode, software has to translate your older 32-bit apps into 64-bit datastreams and instructions. It's not MUCH of a hit, but there is a hit. (Again, about 5%.) This means that running a 64-bit OS, you GAIN up to 5% running 64-bit apps, but LOSE up to 5% running 32-bit apps.

And note that on both of these, 5% appears to be the MAX performance difference (aside from badly written 32-bit programs in 64-bit OS, which lose more.) So even on x86, adding 64-bit won't make that big a difference. (I have a 64-bit Windows machine, and dual boot 32-bit and 64-bit Windows, mostly for testing purposes. I have yet to 'feel' any difference in speed, even doing processor intensive things.)

We might see more of a performance boost in Mac OS, simply because of refinements to the OS since Apple can write to a specific set of hardware, but I have a feeling that the 'desktop' Mac OS will stay 32-bit for the forseeable future, simply because they can't alienate all the Yonah purchasers. (Again, unlike PPC, where you can have both 32-bit and 64-bit compatibility side by side easily, on x86, it's an either/or thing, and takes a bit of work to compile for both.)
 
ehurtley said:
Now, on x86, on the other hand... There is a tangible, but slight, benefit to moving to 64-bit. This comes from the fact that the x86-64 architecture (or AMD64, or EM64T, if you prefer; they all mean the same thing,) has more registers than the 32-bit x86 architecture. This can give a small but measurable speed boost. (We're talking 5%, tops.) And this only applies for 64-bit applications. Unlike PPC's 64-bit implementation, which allows 32-bit applications to run side-by-side with 64-bit with ZERO performance hit, x86 processors must be running entirely in 64-bit mode, or entirely in 32-bit mode. This means that if you are running in 64-bit mode, software has to translate your older 32-bit apps into 64-bit datastreams and instructions. It's not MUCH of a hit, but there is a hit. (Again, about 5%.) This means that running a 64-bit OS, you GAIN up to 5% running 64-bit apps, but LOSE up to 5% running 32-bit apps.

And note that on both of these, 5% appears to be the MAX performance difference (aside from badly written 32-bit programs in 64-bit OS, which lose more.) So even on x86, adding 64-bit won't make that big a difference. (I have a 64-bit Windows machine, and dual boot 32-bit and 64-bit Windows, mostly for testing purposes. I have yet to 'feel' any difference in speed, even doing processor intensive things.)

i'm going to take issue with the "5% at most" performance boost. i compiled povray for a few of my computers and ran the benchmark.pov scene. the compiler used was gcc 3.4. here are the results:

duron 1.6 ghz:
Time For Parse: 0 hours 0 minutes 3.0 seconds (3 seconds)
Time For Photon: 0 hours 0 minutes 60.0 seconds (60 seconds)
Time For Trace: 0 hours 39 minutes 43.0 seconds (2383 seconds)
Total Time: 0 hours 40 minutes 46.0 seconds (2446 seconds)

sempron 1.6 ghz, 32-bit kernel, 32-bit program
Time For Parse: 0 hours 0 minutes 3.0 seconds (3 seconds)
Time For Photon: 0 hours 0 minutes 53.0 seconds (53 seconds)
Time For Trace: 0 hours 33 minutes 45.0 seconds (2025 seconds)
Total Time: 0 hours 34 minutes 41.0 seconds (2081 seconds)

sempron 1.6 ghz, 64-bit kernel, 32-bit program
Parse Time: 0 hours 0 minutes 2 seconds (2 seconds)
Photon Time: 0 hours 0 minutes 49 seconds (49 seconds)
Render Time: 0 hours 35 minutes 50 seconds (2150 seconds)
Total Time: 0 hours 36 minutes 41 seconds (2201 seconds)

sempron 1.6 ghz, 64-bit kernel, 64-bit program
Parse Time: 0 hours 0 minutes 1 seconds (1 seconds)
Photon Time: 0 hours 0 minutes 41 seconds (41 seconds)
Render Time: 0 hours 28 minutes 45 seconds (1725 seconds)
Total Time: 0 hours 29 minutes 27 seconds (1767 seconds)

as you can see, the difference between the decrease in render time between 64-bit and 32-bit povray is ~15%
 
jhu said:
i'm going to take issue with the "5% at most" performance boost. i compiled povray for a few of my computers and ran the benchmark.pov scene. the compiler used was gcc 3.4. here are the results:

Hrm, interesting... I had seen a few benchmarks once upon a time that only showed 5%. Doing some further searching does, indeed reveal 15-20% speed boosts in limited, processor-only tasks. (Rendering was one, like yours, that benefits the most; media encoding also has a 10-15% increase. Others had 5% tops increase, and one even had a decrease.)

So I stand corrected. It appears that some tasks DO benefit more than 5%. BUT, it still won't give you a 'much faster' experience. The core OS, and 'general responsiveness' are improved sigificantly more by moving to dual processors (or dual core,) than by moving to 64-bit. (Compare an old dual G4 500MHz to a 1.25 GHz G4, and you'll find the dual 'feels' faster in everyday use, even though the faster single will finish many processor intensive tasks faster.)
 
...ok guys, IS IT or ISN'T IT?

...Core Duo? Nahh..keep 'em guessin' Intel...but how 'bout this thing?

http://www.isi.edu/~draper/papers/esscirc02.pdf

They say it is "Ultra Wide Word" addressable...not sure I want to be the
consultant who has to "sell one" when they ask* you 'IS IT OR ISN'T IT'?

I guess you could "make it one"..lessee..you order from Intel's custom ASIC
shop..then..you ask Motorola for one of their memory controller packages..then,

...hmmm.

Come one Intel..fess up on the chip...let's let Arn shut this thread down.

Anyone out there have Andy Grove's personal email address?

WW

*(..okokok a "256-bit processor"..no ponies..just bytes)
 
TangoCharlie said:
As a side note, The Sossaman based CPU's would seem an obvious choise for XServes. Anyone want to start a rumor about when the "iServe" will ship?

Lol, wouldn't it be a MacServe though lol :p
 
ehurtley said:
Hrm, interesting... I had seen a few benchmarks once upon a time that only showed 5%. Doing some further searching does, indeed reveal 15-20% speed boosts in limited, processor-only tasks. (Rendering was one, like yours, that benefits the most; media encoding also has a 10-15% increase. Others had 5% tops increase, and one even had a decrease.)

do you have any links? at least for amd64 processors, i can't really imagine how there could be a decrease in performance unless the code is just large enough not to fit into the l1/l2 caches versus their 32-bit counterpart, or they're running a 32-bit program with a 64-bit kernel.

btw, added results for 64-bit kernel and 32-bit povray program in my prior post. indeed there is a measurable performance loss (although i don't notice a thing playing doom 3).
 
jhu said:
do you have any links? at least for amd64 processors, i can't really imagine how there could be a decrease in performance unless the code is just large enough not to fit into the l1/l2 caches versus their 32-bit counterpart, or they're running a 32-bit program with a 64-bit kernel.

btw, added results for 64-bit kernel and 32-bit povray program in my prior post. indeed there is a measurable performance loss (although i don't notice a thing playing doom 3).

Yeah, povray was the main decrease. It's mostly from the overhead of 'padding' 32-bit to fit in the 64-bit registers. Not a huge hit, but measurable. (Unlike PPC, which can effortlessly switch between 32-bit and 64-bit data and instructions.) And, yes, the performance hit was only 32-bit apps in 64-bit OSes. The hit was over both 32-bit/32-bit and 64-bit/64-bit.
 
...anyone wanna "TRIP CHIP"?

http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~trips/quad_charts/quad2005.pdf

..maybe Intel has other options they can't tell Steve about.

Like a "Infiniband Server onna chip" Steve?

Anyone know the real reason Avie left?

Can't be "lack of technology" capabilities.

Maybe they were going to make anal cell chips..for mobile medical needs..
..and wanted early adopter volunteers?

<--is going home now
 
slooksterPSV said:
Worlds first 64-bit personal computer was a Mac.

Or so Apple claimed...

They claimed first because while AMD had their 64-bit Opteron out already, AMD advertised it as a server and workstation chip. It did end up in what were very much 'desktop personal computers' rather than 'workstations', and those same people claimed that Apple's Power Macs were advertised and targeted as 'workstations' rather than 'desktop personal computers'.

I think the whole claim is pointless, since there is no truly 'useful' purpose for 64-bit on a 'personal computer' at the moment. (If you really do need more than 4 GB of RAM, or process 64-bit data, then you need a computer more appropriately classified as a 'workstation', anyway.)

Of course, at the time of both the G5 and the Opteron's releases, Linux was the only OS that could properly take advantage of either one's 64-bit-ness. (Apple released a 64-bit-happy version of OS X sooner than Microsoft released 'Windows XP Professional for 64-bit Extended Systems', at least.)
 
When I boot into Windows XP on my MacBook it sais "Intel 2500 something" with "Physical Adress Enhacement" (roughly translated from german) - so I guess it can adress 64bit adresses. To bad that there aren't SO-DIMMS larger than 2GB each - so no way to test wether the MacBook actually can be run with more than 4GB (which is the 32bit limit).
The handbook sais that the MacBook is limited to 2GB anyway.
 
There are 2GB RAM modules for MacBook (ie they could work), but they arnt supported because of the firmware. Also they are really really expensive.
 
slooksterPSV said:
Worlds first 64-bit personal computer was a Mac.

Technically, in addition to AMD beating it to the punch as someone else pointed out, the DEC Alpha was Waaaaaaaaay ahead of the PPC. Of course, you can argue pro and con on whether the Alpha qualifies as a "Personal Computer". It wasn't average consumer fare but it was supported by a major company, cost less than $10k, and ran Windows NT.
 
netdog said:
...sort of.

... and NT was not marketed as a desktop operating system. It was for the server room back in the day.

Alpha chips also run Dec UNIX quite well in fact - and were amazingly fast in their heyday.
 
...ahem..ok followup..the correct term is GRID PROCESSOR

..recent papers:


http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~kevinlb/teaching/cs532a - 2006/Projects/SaraForghanizadeh.pdf

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.ed...discussions/multiprocessors/parprocs/grid.pdf

http://domino.research.ibm.com/acas/w3www_acas.nsf/images/proposals_01.02/$FILE/keckler.pdf

..okokok..what does this mean?

Means..Intel be draggin' the waggin'...they gonna repeat what MOTO did
unless IBM helps them out..

...now you know why "IBM said 'ok mr. steve..you go play with the nice
Intel boyz...'".

There are no conspiracy theories for processor decisions..just advance
avatar marketing judgements.

Someone please tell the shareholders.

WW

<--will meet you at the Apple Store for a Haagen Daz cone
 
deadkenny said:
When I boot into Windows XP on my MacBook it sais "Intel 2500 something" with "Physical Adress Enhacement" (roughly translated from german) - so I guess it can adress 64bit adresses. To bad that there aren't SO-DIMMS larger than 2GB each - so no way to test wether the MacBook actually can be run with more than 4GB (which is the 32bit limit).
The handbook sais that the MacBook is limited to 2GB anyway.

The 2.0 GHz Core Duo is referred to by Intel as the "Intel Core Duo processor T2500", and 'Physical Address Extension' is a trick for making 32-bit processors capable of addressing more than 4 GB of RAM. It is slow, and it is done with processor/chipset trickery. And even then, a single process can only address 4 GB of RAM. It has been in use in x86 servers for years. (I worked for Intel's server division in '99-2000, and we had a 8-way Pentium III Xeon system that supported up to 32 GB of RAM using this technology.)

Intel calls native 64-bit processors as having 'EM64T' (Extended Memory 64-bit Technology)

And as for:
and NT was not marketed as a desktop operating system. It was for the server room back in the day.
NT had a 'Workstation' version that the Alpha was marketed toward. However, even when run on Alpha or MIPS 64-bit processors, NT was still only 32-bit. (There was even a PowerPC version of NT for a while.) Alpha had the longest life of any of these alternate platforms, lasting all the way through NT 4.0's run. (The MIPS and PowerPC versions were canned before NT 4.0 finished it's run; Alpha and x86 are the only two platforms that made it all the way to Service Pack 6a.)
 
So will Merom, Conroe and Woodcrest be 64-bit? Also will leopard support 64-bit processing like Windows XP 64 for example. I'm really looking fo rthe new MBP to be 64-bit, it should increase the speed quite dramatically right?

Cheers:cool:

EDIT: Will the new MBP be able to take 4Gb of RAM?
 
Mac Rules said:
So will Merom, Conroe and Woodcrest be 64-bit? Also will leopard support 64-bit processing like Windows XP 64 for example. I'm really looking fo rthe new MBP to be 64-bit, it should increase the speed quite dramatically right?

Cheers:cool:

EDIT: Will the new MBP be able to take 4Gb of RAM?

ok: MCW 64 bit? YES
Leopard? unknown
dramatic speed boost? I think it depends on your apps among other things, but don't quote me. In real terms expect 20% more performance from merom versus core duo Yonah.

and for the edit question about MBP ram, unknown, but all it depends on is whether or not they can get cheap 2GB DIMMs or have space for more RAM slots.
 
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