iPhone 14 Pro is iPhone 14 Pro camera really better over 12 Pro? (aperture)

[Freida]

Hello,

do you guys know if the 14 Pro is better than 12 Pro and 13 Pro? The reason I ask is that Main camera aperture is 1.78 whilst 12 Pro is 1.6 and 13 Pro is 1.5 which would give the impression that the best lens is on iPhone 13 Pro (main)

Similar goes to Ultra Wide where again 13 Pro has the best aperture
And for telephoto the best seems to be on 12 Pro.

So, can someone explain to me why Apple is choosing this and whether or not we are getting worse lens, please?

 

[Mikey86uk]

Yes, its better.

That's about the only thing these days that is guaranteed to be better on the newer model.

So the newer the model, the better the camera.

 

[Cod3rror]

No one can tell you until there are actual, original samples available.

I would not expect it to be huge jump above 12 Pro. I'd say the differences will be negligible. There are rarely huge jumps nowadays. Even Xiaomi 12S Ultra with its 1"-type sensor does not blow away the competition the way you'd think it would.

It's all about software and algorithms now and they've pretty much equalized all sensors.

 

[Freida]

But how do you explain the worse aperture? The sensor will literally get less light compared to previous models especially on the ultrawide and telephoto. As a result that should give us worse low light performance compared to previous models.

Or at least that is my understanding from DSLR so is this different?

Yes, its better.

That's about the only thing these days that is guaranteed to be better on the newer model.

So the newer the model, the better the camera.

 

[luigi.lauro]

You have to consider that the F aperture gives you how much light the lens can capture, but this is also influenced by the sensor resolution.

The 48MP sensor is 4x times more pixels, so I would guess it can capture at least x2 light compared to the old one, so this offsets significantly the lens aperture in terms of picture quality: F1.6 @ 12 MP ~= F3.2+ @ 48MP

Also this sensor is the first "dual gain / ISO" Sony IMX sensor that Apple adopts, this will give better picture quality and HDR capabilities.

 

[4sallypat]

But how do you explain the worse aperture? The sensor will literally get less light compared to previous models especially on the ultrawide and telephoto. As a result that should give us worse low light performance compared to previous models.

Or at least that is my understanding from DSLR so is this different?

Agree, the f1.5 is the better choice as a camera person, but the iPhone uses more advanced sensor size and density...

 

[Freida]

Right, it makes sense for the main camera but the ultra wide and telephoto do not have this 48MP sensor so the drop in light will have to show, no? I'm sure the main camera will be awesome but the other 2 seem to be crippled quite a lot.
What am I missing here, please?

You have to consider that the F aperture gives you how much light the lens can capture, but this is also influenced by the sensor resolution.

The 48MP sensor is 4x times more pixels, so I would guess it can capture at least x2 light compared to the old one, so this offsets significantly the lens aperture in terms of picture quality: F1.6 @ 12 MP ~= F3.2+ @ 48MP

Also this sensor is the first "dual gain / ISO" Sony IMX sensor that Apple adopts, this will give better picture quality and HDR capabilities.

 

[JamesMcFlyJR]

watch this video for a detailed explaination. (from 2:45 to 9:00)

TL/DR: the Main 48MP camera on the 14 Pros are better than the 13 Pro F1.5 Main camera by a little bit (the bigger sensor allows more light than the f1.5), and the Ultra Wide got a huge update even though it also has a slower f stop (from f1.8 to f2.2)

 

[Freida]

Oh, thank you so much. Thats clear now. So basically we get better cameras except the telephoto one.
Cool, lets see how it translates to the real world now

Thank you for the clarification

watch this video for a detailed explaination. (from 2:45 to 9:00)

TL/DR: the Main 48MP camera on the 14 Pros are better than the 13 Pro F1.5 Main camera by a little bit (the bigger sensor allows more light than the f1.5), and the Ultra Wide got a huge update even though it also has a slower f stop (from f1.8 to f2.2)

 

[PeteBurgh]

What am I missing here, please?

What we are all missing here are the reviews. We'll all know much on Wednesday (I believe) when they are released.

It's interesting pore over the specs and try to divine things from that, but it's such a complicated web of trade-offs that that only gets us so far. What we need to answer this question meaningfully is a decent amount of independent, real-world testing.

 

[Freida]

That is true but the specs are important and the video posted above does explain why we get different specs and where the hidden catch is so its definitely worth checking out.

What we are all missing here are the reviews. We'll all know much on Wednesday (I believe) when they are released.

It's interesting pore over the specs and try to divine things from that, but it's such a complicated web of trade-offs that that only gets us so far. What we need to answer this question meaningfully is a decent amount of independent, real-world testing.

 

[robinium]

watch this video for a detailed explaination. (from 2:45 to 9:00)

TL/DR: the Main 48MP camera on the 14 Pros are better than the 13 Pro F1.5 Main camera by a little bit (the bigger sensor allows more light than the f1.5), and the Ultra Wide got a huge update even though it also has a slower f stop (from f1.8 to f2.2)

I would be really surprised if Apple added this 2x crop “lens” and it was fake and manipulative advertising. It’s not something they usually do…

 

[Freida]

My guess is that with the 2x lens there will be no pixel binning so you still get 12 mpix picture but you don't get the benefits from the 'superpixel' thing.

That is the most logical approach I think they might take.

I would be really surprised if Apple added this 2x crop “lens” and it was fake and manipulative advertising. It’s not something they usually do…

 

[soulreaver99]

Of course it’s better. Haven’t you heard it’s “their best camera yet?” 😝

 

[RRC]

It will be better, the increase in sensor size isn’t being talked about enough over the aperture change etc…

It’s using the largest sensor you can get on a smartphone, including those that use a 1 inch type sensor, simply because they don’t actually use the full sensor area (they can’t).

Add in improved computational photography, improved lenses and a sensor that is massive compared to that in the 12 Pro, it will be a noticeable improvement… especially if you shoot ProRaw and use the full 48mp file.

 

[Freida]

Where did you get these, please? I'd like to read more about it

It will be better, the increase in sensor size isn’t being talked about enough over the aperture change etc…

It’s using the largest sensor you can get on a smartphone, including those that use a 1 inch type sensor, simply because they don’t actually use the full sensor area (they can’t).

Add in improved computational photography, improved lenses and a sensor that is massive compared to that in the 12 Pro, it will be a noticeable improvement… especially if you shoot ProRaw and use the full 48mp file.

 

[robinium]

My guess is that with the 2x lens there will be no pixel binning so you still get 12 mpix picture but you don't get the benefits from the 'superpixel' thing.

That is the most logical approach I think they might take.

Oh yeah of course, that’s exactly how it works, but this video above is suggesting that it is ‘fake’/marketing speak and those binned pixels can’t really become full quality normal ones. They’re suggesting the 2x lens will product 3MP equivalent photos.

I genuinely would be shocked if Apple added something crappy like that, which is bound to be a bit disappointment, after hyping it up.

 

[Supermallet]

The pixels in the main sensor can be un-binnned, this is how the camera shoots when you select the ProRaw option. Similarly, the phone can un-bin the pixels for the 2x mode, crop out the pixels outside of the middle 12 MP's worth, and boom, a true 12 MP image. That was my understanding based on the presentation.

 

[robinium]

The pixels in the main sensor can be un-binnned, this is how the camera shoots when you select the ProRaw option. Similarly, the phone can un-bin the pixels for the 2x mode, crop out the pixels outside of the middle 12 MP's worth, and boom, a true 12 MP image. That was my understanding based on the presentation.

Yup, that’s how I took it too, and how Apple advertised it. This pro photographer that someone else posted above in the thread says it’s just marketing fodder though, and it’s not a real 48mp sensor.

 

[Supermallet]

Yup, that’s how I took it too, and how Apple advertised it. This pro photographer that someone else posted above in the thread says it’s just marketing fodder though, and it’s not a real 48mp sensor.

Well, that will be very easy to confirm. Take a photo in ProRaw and check it in photo processing software.

Edit: Okay, I watched the video itself. He's basing this claim (that Apple is using a quarter of the binned pixels for the 2x zoom) on the behavior of how Google did their virtual crop setting on the Pixel 6. I suspect Apple is smart enough to un-bin the pixels for the 2x lens, but we won't fully know until the phones are out and tested.

 

[luigi.lauro]

My guess is that with the 2x lens there will be no pixel binning so you still get 12 mpix picture but you don't get the benefits from the 'superpixel' thing.

That is the most logical approach I think they might take.

That's exactly what is happening, they provided a "real" optical zoom 2x via sensor cropping to the center 12MP. But yeah, it means all the benefits of 48MP->12MP pixel binning are lost, so I would expect much worse low light capabilities, more noise, etc.. basically it would probably be the worst "lens", but probably better that cropping 3MP from the pixel binned 48->12MP and then digital zoom x2 to 12MP. At least the pixels are "real".

Additionally, the center 12MP used for the 2x "lens" are with a quad bayer setup, instead of a traditional bayer (see: https://www.dpreview.com/files/p/articles/6110937480/Quad_Bayer_diagram-1.png). This will probably make color resolution worse, after with a fancy demosaicing

 

[r_123]

The pixels in the main sensor can be un-binnned, this is how the camera shoots when you select the ProRaw option. Similarly, the phone can un-bin the pixels for the 2x mode, crop out the pixels outside of the middle 12 MP's worth, and boom, a true 12 MP image. That was my understanding based on the presentation.

let's hope there's the option for 12 mp proraw images from the main camera as well.

 

[RRC]

Where did you get these, please? I'd like to read more about it

DP Review forum has a topic going on their forum with a lot of information in it, as well as documents and leaks that say what sensor the iPhone 14 Pro is using, and from that you can work out the size etc.

 

[DarthBradicus]

I’m surprised there are this many comments without the correct answer.

I’m not a professional photographer, but I know enough to know that the f/ is not an absolute number. It’s relative to the size of the lens. If the lens size increases, it can still let in more light even with a smaller aperture (higher f/ number). There’s a formula you can use out there to compare apertures of different lens sizes. You can’t compare them on their own. A simple Google search would have revealed this.

Of course the new cameras are better. Apple said each camera has 2-3x better low light performance from the previous generation.

 

[scrtagntman]

I’m surprised there are this many comments without the correct answer.

I’m not a professional photographer, but I know enough to know that the f/ is not an absolute number. It’s relative to the size of the lens. If the lens size increases, it can still let in more light even with a smaller aperture (higher f/ number). There’s a formula you can use out there to compare apertures of different lens sizes. You can’t compare them on their own. A simple Google search would have revealed this.

Of course the new cameras are better. Apple said each camera has 2-3x better low light performance from the previous generation.

You are closer than anyone so far (but still not quite there).

F/stop is the ratio of focal length to aperture size. If you put a larger sensor in a camera and change nothing else, you end up with, effectively, a wider field of view. A wider angle. So to compensate, you put in a lens with a longer focal length. A longer focal length means a lower f/stop if you do not change the aperature.

TL;DR - A larger sensor means a higher f/stop for a given aperture size and field of view. The “f 1.78” aperture on the iPhone 14 would be closer to an f 8 or higher on a full frame camera with a similar field of view, for example.

Which means the lens does not technically perform worse than previous lenses. In fact, I imagine it actually performs a little better and has a slightly wider aperture than before, but not wide enough to keep up with a sensor that is twice as large as the previous generation.