Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I think it depends on the qualifications. It's usually up to the party imposing restrictions and qualifications to actually verify compliance. That's not the consumers burden.

For example, let's consider that you need to be 21+ to buy liquor at a liquor store. If the liquor store actually checks IDs, and a teenager presents a fake ID to a liquor store clerk to get alcohol and gets it, the teenager presented convincing but fraudulent proof and thus is responsible. But if the liquor store doesn't check IDs at all and they sell to a teenager, then it's on the liquor store because they failed to verify.

If Apple doesn't bother verifying the education discounts, I think it's fairly on Apple if anyone gets it that shouldn't. As we all know, merely clicking a text-box affirming something is not sufficient verification. (How many 16 years olds click, "Yes I am 18" on adult websites?) Apple could do like youthdiscount.com and actually verify .edu emails or check scanned student IDs, but they don't. That's their business decision and whatever happens as a result is on them.

To place the burden on consumers to comply would be chaotic. Lots of software licenses are quite complex and regular consumers should not be expected to fully understand a hundred page document just to qualify themselves for a purchase.

The point I'm trying to make is the distinction between voluntary and enforced compliance - morality vs. law enforcement. It may well be that enforcement is minimal (no locked gate, security guard, or video camera to protect the flowers in the front yard). The question is, what do I do in the face of that weak enforcement? Do I take the flowers because I want them, or do I leave them because they are my neighbor's property and he hasn't told me I can take them?

In this case, Apple has done more than my hypothetical neighbor. Apple has posted their terms of sale; made their wishes known, no different than if the neighbor had put up a sign, "Don't pick the flowers!" "Education Discount" So now it's up to the individual who wants the flowers/discount. Take them because he can get away with it, or respect the expressed wishes of the owner?

If we say the neighbor didn't do enough to defend his flower bed, we're blaming the victim. Any talk of whether Apple benefits from selling its discounted products (a sale is still a sale) is besides the point - it's a rationalization. This is about whether people follow the rules voluntarily.

Regardless of whether someone reads the fine print in the terms of sale; the banner says, "Education Discount." I'm not going to school, I'm not a teacher, I'm not buying it for my child who is in school. Do I lie about being qualified, or do I walk away?

Now, back to that teenager at the liquor store. You're mixing two laws. One is that the legal drinking age is 21. No matter how that liquor is obtained, the teenager is breaking that law. There is a separate law that requires sellers of liquor to check the buyer's age. Successfully fooling a liquor store clerk doesn't change the fact that the drinking age is 21. The cops can still confiscate that booze.

Law and morality depend on there being a high percentage of voluntary compliance - it's totally impractical to say that you can do anything you want, so long as you come up with a good rationalization and don't get caught.
 
Law and morality depend on there being a high percentage of voluntary compliance - it's totally impractical to say that you can do anything you want, so long as you come up with a good rationalization and don't get caught.

I generally agree. The way you get a high percentage of voluntary compliance though is you make people want to comply. Morality doesn't get anyone to comply. People generally won't comply with burdensome or disagreeable rules for very long, regardless of the morals.

I'm reminded of all those beaten paths in the grass between two paved walkways in a park. Like this. People know they shouldn't walk on the grass and they should stick to the paved walkways, but they'll take the shortcut through the grass eventually, until it's a beaten path. A bad society will put up signs or fences, argue morality, shame violators, try to punish, etc. Some society might just do nothing, and let there be a beaten path. But a good society will just add a paved walkway where the beaten path developed. If the people want to walk there, let them walk there. In other words, a society should mold its rules to how people are, not the other way around.

While it's a deviation, I think the Apple education discount is sort of like that. I'll keep using the discount when I find it fits according to how I interpret it, and go along that beaten path. Apple will either pave the way those like us, or they'll put up a fence, or they'll do nothing.

Regardless of whether someone reads the fine print in the terms of sale; the banner says, "Education Discount." I'm not going to school, I'm not a teacher, I'm not buying it for my child who is in school. Do I lie about being qualified, or do I walk away?
This is what I mean when I say you're doing Apple's job for them. Where did you get that only folks going to school, teachers, or folks buying for a child who is in school are qualified? I assume you intuited it from some prior experience or assumptions. But then you're no different than I am, we're both interpreting vague things.

You certainly did not actually go and read the terms of the sale, because that has a much larger and broader set of qualifications. For example, did you know that merely being on a school board or PTO/PTA qualifies? I didn't know that before I dug into it just now.

The policy is pretty vague actually. I think it's vague intentionally, so as to not be overly exclusive. Apple chose to make it vague. For example, the following situations might qualify depending on how you interpret the ambiguous words in those terms:
- a nurse enrolled in a mandatory continuing education course
- a family member of a home-schooled kid
- an employee of a private company partnered with a higher-education institution

Since Apple is leaving the doors wide open by leaving it up to us to decide, it is entirely reasonable to interpret it in any way. It's not our job to narrowly interpret Apple's policy. If Apple doesn't agree with my interpretation, it's on them to enforce it.

It may well be that enforcement is minimal (no locked gate, security guard, or video camera to protect the flowers in the front yard). The question is, what do I do in the face of that weak enforcement? Do I take the flowers because I want them, or do I leave them because they are my neighbor's property and he hasn't told me I can take them?
This question is settled. Going on to your neighbors property is trespass. Taking the flowers is larceny. There is no ambiguity here.

A more analogous example would be if your neighbor said you may barrow the potted flowers to bring to Mary's house to show her. But on the way to Mary's house to show her, you swing by Steve's house and show him too. So your neighbor granted you a vague permission and you interpreted it broadly. It's vague because it's unclear if showing Mary is the exclusive limitation, or a inclusive example. Neighbor didn't say only to show Mary, but also didn't specify other permissible uses of the borrowed potted flowers.

If we say the neighbor didn't do enough to defend his flower bed, we're blaming the victim. Any talk of whether Apple benefits from selling its discounted products (a sale is still a sale) is besides the point - it's a rationalization. This is about whether people follow the rules voluntarily.
First, it's only blaming the victim if you victimize them. Apple is not a victim here. It's about two parties and a contract, and each party has certain duties. It's Apple's duty to enforce those terms of the contract that is favorable to them. It's not like Apple automatically applies all possible discounts when they're available - it's on the consumer to ask for the appropriate discount or present the appropriate coupon when applicable. Each party has obligations, and it's not the consumers obligation to police Apple's restrictions.

Second, I didn't say anything about whether Apple benefits. I agree it's beside the point. Apple could be losing money on every sale for all it matters. They wrote the terms, they impose the terms, there is no arms-length negotiation. They're not my terms, so I'm not responsible for them. That's all that matters to me.
 
I'm assuming that the use of the term 'illegal' was simply a misuse of the term without implying that a law was being broken or violated, although I'm not sure - it would be fraud against Apple, if one was claiming to be a student when that was not the case, and if it was a big enough deal for the company to take the individual to court, then I suppose there are laws against such fraudulent behavior - so maybe the answer is, 'yes', it is illegal?

Heck, I'm not an attorney. It's certainly unethical.

Why ask the question? Trying to get some kind of validation that it would somehow be 'ok' to do this? Lots of folks here think Apple is too rich and it's therefore permissible to take advantage of them in any way that you can get away with.

Sad, isn't it? Some people follow the rules only if they think that the risk of getting caught and penalized is so high that it's not worth the risk. Others follow the rules because, well, isn't that how civil society is supposed to work? Respect the rules, treat others the way you want to be treated, that kind of thing?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ApfelKuchen
It may well be that enforcement is minimal (no locked gate, security guard, or video camera to protect the flowers in the front yard). The question is, what do I do in the face of that weak enforcement? Do I take the flowers because I want them, or do I leave them because they are my neighbor's property and he hasn't told me I can take them?

...and you're still conflating violating a software license with physically taking "scarce" property.

Except, we're not talking about taking your neighbour's flowers - you're looking at your neighbours flowers and your neighbour expects you to pay for the privilege... after all, they've devoted time and expense to growing the flowers so why shouldn't they be compensated? But, as a society, we have a sense of perspective that says that says its OK for the botanic gardens to charge for admission but that you're neighbour shouldn't expect to get paid 50c every time you look out of your upstairs window... although if you look at it reductively it's exactly the same principle (heck, you neighbour's beautiful garden has probably added a few thousand to the value of your house).

Now I haven't seen Apple whingeing about educational discount fraud - most likely because the "education" tag is enough to deter most of the creative professionals who are the main market for these apps, and the $200 edu bundle sales to individuals who probably wouldn't consider them at full price are mostly frosting on that cake. If they did get obsessed about it then the cure would be worse than the disease: expensive prosecutions of people who probably couldn't afford the fines (and subsequent bad publicity), independent resellers losing the ability to offer education discounts, genuine students/teachers missing out because they couldn't get the necessary paperwork in time and - quite possibly - overall loss of revenue as potential "fraudsters" just stick with the free apps or resort to "warez" sites...

As for copyright/licensing in general - remember that things like the right to use a VCR to "time shift" TV shows had to be fought for for in court (and, if you read down, that decision might have been overturned but for the number of people it would have criminalised) and part of the effect of more recent industry-lobbied legislation like the DCMA has been to undo that and obstruct other rights such as "fair use" and "first sale" or your ability to back up the software you have paid for, or run it after the DRM servers have been shut down... Here in the UK, Apple would never have sold a single iPod if people didn't ignore the law (the right to 'rip' a CD or LP - even if you have bought it legally and the copy is for your own use - has never been established, although it's never been enforced either).

So, I'm not going to condone people getting discounts they aren't strictly entitled to, or "stretching" the terms of license agreements. However, that doesn't justify hyping up the "crime" by falsely comparing it to theft - that is grist to the mill of big businesses who'd charge us $100 to sing Happy Birthday at a kid's party if they could get away with it.
 
and you're still conflating violating a software license with physically taking "scarce" property.
I'm not aware of a "scarce property"/"plentiful property" defense. "He has lots of flowers, I only took some of them."

I'm not discussing software license at all. I'm talking about morality.

This all started with a question about terms of sale. "Is it illegal to purchase pro apps with education discount if you are not eligible?"

All I see are rationalizations for why violating the posted terms of sale is justifiable (even if those terms of sale are effectively on the Honor System).

Sure, Apple could demand some sort of proof of eligibility. Providing and validating that proof can be difficult in a digital medium. By comparison, check the procedure for obtaining an Apple Music student discount (it's actually a college student discount). To verify eligibility one must sign up for UNiDAYS, a third-party service that offers discounts to college students. The student provides info from their college ID card. To what degree UNiDAYS actually confirms this info with the student's school is unknown to me.

In this case, the Education Discount is offered on the Honor System (yes, I'm saying that again, for emphasis). The banner says, Education Discount. The fine print (for those who care to read it) describes who is eligible to claim the discount. All I'm seeing are rationalizations as to why it's OK to ignore that.

All I'm seeing are justifications for dishonorable behavior. Essentially, "If Apple is foolish enough to not demand proof, then Apple gets what it deserves."

Again, my arguments are about morality, not legality. It's not about whether someone will be caught, or how much/little harm might be done, or whether the seller deserves to be paid. It's about morality - voluntary compliance with the accepted norms of social behavior.
 
I'm not aware of a "scarce property"/"plentiful property" defense. "He has lots of flowers, I only took some of them."

Wherever courts or the police have any discretion over whether to prosecute or how severe a penalty to impose, the extent of the damage to the victim would be a major factor in that decision.

Anyway, you're still making false analogies about physical property vs. copyright. All physical property is scarce - if you have a million flowers and I take one, you've lost a whole, real, flower which you can't now sell to anybody. If I make a copy of your software all you've lost is the hypothetical opportunity to sell it to me. Legally, it's not even the same law involved (and not only is the law on copyright far younger than "thou shalt not steal" but the idea that it applies to software and that the ephemeral copy in your computer's memory means that using it is copying and needs an additional license is younger still).

I'm not discussing software license at all. I'm talking about morality.

...and morality needs a sense of proportion just as much as the law - or you end up with a situation in which "rules are rules", "this is right because this is how it has always been done" and where questioning the law or asking authority to justify itself are forbidden.
 
. . . By comparison, check the procedure for obtaining an Apple Music student discount (it's actually a college student discount). To verify eligibility one must sign up for UNiDAYS, a third-party service that offers discounts to college students. . .

. . . In this case, the Education Discount is offered on the Honor System. . .

Absolutely correct, and it is actually somewhat surprising to me that Apple does not do a more rigorous validation of educational status for purchasing a Mac or other equipment. They could easily do it, just as they do for Apple Music, as you point out.
 
In some countries they verify your eligiblity with UNiDAYS. In the terms & conditions it says they perform routine audits to verify. I don't know what info they would ask for if you were audited. There are also strict limits on how many purchases you can make. For example, you can only purchase 1 Mac desktop or laptop per year, and only 2 software titles. The discount is also quite low. For example, items from the Refurbished & Clearance store are priced lower than items in the education store. Apple isn't going to lose out much if some people who aren't eligible for the education discount purchase things from the education store. I'm not saying you should use the discount if you don't qualify, but I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it if you did. After all, if Apple were you they would do it. Look at how they evade taxes... Their not so honest business practices have enabled them to become one of the wealthiest companies in the world. Try to be a good person though. Don't do things that could get you in trouble. It's not worth it.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.