Resolved Is it possible to install Mojave and keep HFS+ ?

[Riwam]

I have a few usefull apps like DiskWarrior, Tuxera NTFS or (in Bootcamp Windows) Paragon HFS+, which unfortunately would not work with an APFS formatted OSX drive.
I believe all the good reasons why Apple introduced the new file format but do not need those advantages by now while (for instance) keeping the present easy interchangeability of files between the OSX and the Bootcamp Windows side are for me much more important.
Since in my MacPro End 2013 there is a SSD, Iin order to install High Sierra and still keep HFS+ I followed a simple and effective advice post in the High Sierra part of the forum.
I installed High Sierra in a clone external USB drive, upgrading there the Sierra to HS, and then cloned it back to the inner HD.
Now with Mojave... is there a simple way to have Mojave (once the final version is released) and keep HFS+ ???
Thank you very much in advance for any suggestion how to achieve it in a not risky and complicated way.
Ed

 

[oatman13]

You can't keep HFS; and if you somehow manage to do (using CarbonCopy Cloner or by mounting the drive and copying stuff over) you will never be offered Software Updates or an avenue to upgrade your Mac. HFS is not supported as a boot volume as of macOS Mojave.

 

[Riwam]

You can't keep HFS; and if you somehow manage to do (using CarbonCopy Cloner or by mounting the drive and copying stuff over) you will never be offered Software Updates or an avenue to upgrade your Mac. HFS is not supported as a boot volume as of macOS Mojave.

I can easily figure the coming problems involved. If Apple wants APFS it cannot be ignored.
However regarding updates (10.14.1, 10.14.2, etc) I am not worried by now.
Following the advise of a clever member of this forum, who said in his post he only upgraded his mac to the last version of the OS previous to any new one just released, I waited until the last High Sierra update was released (10.13.6) and only then I upgraded my Sierra.
I can wait a year until the final Mojave version (with all possible bugs already corrected) is released (at the same time of a coming 10.15) and upgrade to Mojave only then.
My question was if it is possible (meaning feasable without ruining the OS or harming the hardware for instance regarding the firmware update which apparently is done now when installing Mojave), to have running the OS Mojave with HFS+ file system still kept, and the best and less complicated way to achieve it.
Thank you very much in advance for any help!
Regards
Ed

 

[SoYoung]

SO even on Fusion Drive we have no choice? And Tuxera don’t work on Mojave? Hummm I think I’ll stay with High Sierra for now then.

 

[chucker23n1]

My question was if it is possible (meaning feasable without ruining the OS or harming the hardware for instance regarding the firmware update which apparently is done now when installing Mojave), to have running the OS Mojave with HFS+ file system still kept, and the best and less complicated way to achieve it.

It isn't supported to skip conversion any longer. There are third-party patches to this.

 

[Fishrrman]

oatman wrote:
"You can't keep HFS; and if you somehow manage to do (using CarbonCopy Cloner or by mounting the drive and copying stuff over) you will never be offered Software Updates or an avenue to upgrade your Mac."

No.
You CAN "keep HFS" if you wish.
I have an external SSD (connected via USB3) that has the latest version of Mojave on it running under HFS+.

It's a little more work than usual to maintain, but it IS possible and "do-able".

Here's how I do it:
1. I have a "mule drive" -- a second hard drive (old, platter-based) that has a copy of Mojave running in APFS. It's my ONLY APFS drive, and it is never used, except when an update becomes available.
2. When an update is needed, I boot from my mule drive, and run software update.
3. Software update "finds" the updates and then applies them to the mule drive.
4. When done, I connect my "working drive" (USB3 SSD).
5. I then run CarbonCopyCloner on it, cloning the entire drive WITH THE EXCEPTION OF the "users" folder.
6. When done, I power down, put the mule drive away, and then I can boot and run with my completely-updated copy of Mojave running under HFS+.

YES -- it is "a few extra steps".
BUT -- it WORKS.

That's how I do it.
Others may have a better way.

But again -- it CAN be done, if you want to take the extra steps to do it.

A disclaimer:
I don't know if this method can be used on a Mac's internal drive, particularly new MacBook Pro's with the t2 chip. I just don't know, because I don't have one and can't try it.
But it DOES work when you're willing to boot from an external drive as described above.

 

[Riwam]

oatman wrote:
"You can't keep HFS; and if you somehow manage to do (using CarbonCopy Cloner or by mounting the drive and copying stuff over) you will never be offered Software Updates or an avenue to upgrade your Mac."

No.
You CAN "keep HFS" if you wish.
I have an external SSD (connected via USB3) that has the latest version of Mojave on it running under HFS+.

It's a little more work than usual to maintain, but it IS possible and "do-able".

Here's how I do it:
1. I have a "mule drive" -- a second hard drive (old, platter-based) that has a copy of Mojave running in APFS. It's my ONLY APFS drive, and it is never used, except when an update becomes available.
2. When an update is needed, I boot from my mule drive, and run software update.
3. Software update "finds" the updates and then applies them to the mule drive.
4. When done, I connect my "working drive" (USB3 SSD).
5. I then run CarbonCopyCloner on it, cloning the entire drive WITH THE EXCEPTION OF the "users" folder.
6. When done, I power down, put the mule drive away, and then I can boot and run with my completely-updated copy of Mojave running under HFS+.

YES -- it is "a few extra steps".
BUT -- it WORKS.

That's how I do it.
Others may have a better way.

But again -- it CAN be done, if you want to take the extra steps to do it.

A disclaimer:
I don't know if this method can be used on a Mac's internal drive, particularly new MacBook Pro's with the t2 chip. I just don't know, because I don't have one and can't try it.
But it DOES work when you're willing to boot from an external drive as described above.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you very much Fishrrman for your very kind answer and detailed and clear explanation, which I appreciate very much indeed!
Alas, in my case, it had to work (hopefully... ) with the inner drive of my MacPro End 2013 but at least (thanks God) no T2 chip to worry about...
And... the "mule" drive will have all the applications presently used under High Sierra (a clone of it, first made and then upgraded to Mojave APFS).
Now correct me please if I am wrong.
While actively the "mule" is used only for Apple OSX 10.14.x updates, as you say, all non-Apple-OSX applications (Office, Adobe, etc.) should update, if I understand you right, directly in the HFS+ Mojave volume,... hoping this can be accepted by all those non-Apple applications runnnig now under Mojave and in spite of having kept HFS+ ???).

I am curious about the reason of not cloning back the "users" folder to the computers HFS+ main drive once updated the 10.14.x auxiliary ("mule") APFS drive .
Why must the "users" folder be excluded from the back cloning ?

And what about the rumors I heard that every Mac receives "a firmware update" wenn installing Mojave , is it an urban legend which can be ignored or... does it affect maybe only the newest MacBook Pros?
Again thank you heartily
Ed

 

[Fishrrman]

"I am curious about the reason of not cloning back the "users" folder to the computers HFS+ main drive once updated the 10.14.x auxiliary ("mule") APFS drive .
Why must the "users" folder be excluded from the back cloning ?"

Because on my "working drive", I have changed things in my account since it was first created (from day to day usage).

When I update the mule drive, I want the OS "updated". Only the OS. I want my personal stuff to "remain as it is" (not be over-written by the clone).

So... when I "clone it over" I DO NOT clone the users folder, because that contains my accounts, etc.

Only the OS "gets cloned".

 

[Marx55]

Following the advise of a clever member of this forum, who said in his post he only upgraded his mac to the last version of the OS previous to any new one just released

Do you remember who said that or link? Thanks.

 

[ivnj]

Can't you just partition the internal hard drive in to 2 parts. Leave HFS on part 1 and install Mojave on part 2. Best of both worlds.

 

[Riwam]

Do you remember who said that or link? Thanks.

I tried and tried and tried but could not find that post.
One has some chances to find a whole thread...but to find a single post seems not possible.
When I read that several months ago I found the idea in my opinion clever, much more sensible in any case that people rushing like mad people to test betas...
So it remained in my memory but unfortunately I could not find either that post or who put it in the forum.
But you can believe me I actually read that from someone who said he proceeded with his mac in such a way.
Regards
Ed
[doublepost=1537632507][/doublepost]

Can't you just partition the internal hard drive in to 2 parts. Leave HFS on part 1 and install Mojave on part 2. Best of both worlds.

I alteady have the inner drive sharing High Sierra with Bootcamp Windows 10. I would be afraid of further partitioning it as you suggest and am not sure how it could be done upgrading only part of it without messing the whole mac up.
For older MacOS I prefer to keep external bootable drives I do not need to update on a regular basis with the usual mails, invoices, pictures and other new things arriving continuously to any live system.
Thanks anyway.
Ed

 

[ivnj]

I tried and tried and tried but could not find that post.
One has some chances to find a whole thread...but to find a single post seems not possible.
When I read that several months ago I found the idea in my opinion clever, much more sensible in any case that people rushing like mad people to test betas...
So it remained in my memory but unfortunately I could not find either that post or who put it in the forum.
But you can believe me I actually read that from someone who said he proceeded with his mac in such a way.
Regards
Ed
[doublepost=1537632507][/doublepost]
I alteady have the inner drive sharing High Sierra with Bootcamp Windows 10. I would be afraid of further partitioning it as you suggest and am not sure how it could be done upgrading only part of it without messing the whole mac up.
For older MacOS I prefer to keep external bootable drives I do not need to update on a regular basis with the usual mails, invoices, pictures and other new things arriving continuously to any live system.
Thanks anyway.
Ed

Disk utility can easily split into 3. Or install Mojave on an external usb or thunderbolt and mess around with it from there.

 

[mj_]

@Fishrrman you're joking, right? RIGHT???

I was busy with a major project for the last couple of weeks and didn't have time to follow 10.14 development, and now that I'm back I'm told that even if we managed to trick 10.14 to run on an HFS+ drive Apple would refuse to offer any updates? Are they friggin' serious?? What's their explanation for this utter mockery? I've made my peace with the fact that installing 10.14 on HFS+ would involve some major trickery but this is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[chucker23n1]

HFS+ is legacy now, and the reasons to still use it are diminishing. That’s all the engineering justification needed.

 

[oatman13]

@Fishrrman you're joking, right? RIGHT???

I was busy with a major project for the last couple of weeks and didn't have time to follow 10.14 development, and now that I'm back I'm told that even if we managed to trick 10.14 to run on an HFS+ drive Apple would refuse to offer any updates? Are they friggin' serious?? What's their explanation for this utter mockery? I've made my peace with the fact that installing 10.14 on HFS+ would involve some major trickery but this is absolutely ridiculous.

Because booting HFS+ is not supported... Just because your system doesn't kernel panic on boot while running HFS doesn't mean it's permitted. Obviously you are highly discouraged from running HFS, and APFS is the future for macOS; I'd suggest you embrace it. Stop using HFS, it's dead.
Back up your machine, repartition to APFS, and restore from backup.

 

[mj_]

I realize that it's not officially supported and that HFS+ compatibility might break entirely with subsequent updates at any point. However, I still don't see why you would actively refuse to deliver updates to a 10.14 installation running on HFS+ rather than APFS. That's the part I can't wrap my head around, and the part that seems to be nothing but a giant middle finger (with no actual engineering justification behind it) to me. One of those "my way or the highway" situations Apple is so infamous for...

Regarding APFS: Frankly, I don't trust Apple to develop and debug a software as complex as a file system in such a short period of time. Plus, I'm very conservative when it comes to new file systems and prefer to do let others to the beta testing for me for the first few years before I entrust it with my important data. While my biggest gripe - Apple withholding the APFS documentation from its developers - has been all but resolved recently it took Apple almost two years longer than initially promised, and I fear they will continue to go down that road by introducing new APFS features randomly without documenting those. Thus, I still have a very bad feeling about running my business critical systems on APFS. Call me paranoid (or conservative, or even just cautious) but again: once bitten, twice shy.

 

[chucker23n1]

Regarding APFS: Frankly, I don't trust Apple to develop and debug a software as complex as a file system in such a short period of time.

How do you infer the period of time?

 

[Fishrrman]

mj wrote:
"now that I'm back I'm told that even if we managed to trick 10.14 to run on an HFS+ drive Apple would refuse to offer any updates? Are they friggin' serious?? "

Please go back and read my post 6 above.
You can still update Mojave if you have an HFS+ installation.
But it's a bit tricky, because I don't believe the Software Update pref pane can detect that updates are available when running under HFS+.

Somewhere there was a post describing how to work around this and create a "self-updating" install of Mojave to HFS+. But you have to modify the installer file itself from the beginning.

I didn't do that.
"My way" (again, as I have described above in reply 6 above) details HOW to upgrade a Mojave/HFS+ drive.

I've mentioned this before, I'll do so again:
Apple is trying to FORCE users into APFS, even though Mojave (and I suspect the OS's that come later on) will continue to run under HFS+.

This is similar to the way the Mail.app tries to force the new user into using IMAP instead of POP -- one cannot avoid an IMAP install (when creating a brand-new email account) UNLESS you know "the tricks" to get around doing so.

This isn't to say that Mail.app won't run using POP -- it still runs just fine.
It's that Apple doesn't want you to use POP (even though you can).

I'm -guessing- that this applies to Mojave, as well.
It runs under both APFS and HFS+ -- but they're trying to force folks to use APFS.

What oatman said in reply 15 above:
"Because booting HFS+ is not supported..."

Even though Apple doesn't "support" it, you can still DO it.
I boot and run Mojave under HFS+ using an external USB3 SSD.
Runs fine.
Do you not believe me?

 

[mj_]

@Fishrrman I did read your post, and that's what I was referring to. It sounds like a major clusterf**k to run 10.14 off an HFS+ drive...

How do you infer the period of time?

I can only infer from what is publicly available. The first documentation started to appear in September 2016 after it had been announced at WWDC in June 2016, so around two years ago. Their first release on iOS was in early 2017, and on macOS in late 2017 with High Sierra. iOS is a whole different issue and not even remotely comparable to the complexities of macOS, so I won't go there.

We don't really know how long they have been secretly working on APFS behind the scenes. However, their public "beta" phase has been very short, and file systems can never be fully tested in a lab environment. A single year of public testing on SSD-equipped Macs before violently forcing it down every single user's throat regardless of size and physical storage type is courageous, to say the least.

 

[rumplestiltskin]

Thank you for this. After watching Tim Standing's preso, there's no way I'm adopting APFS until I know that there's some sort of disk optimization happening in the background to rectify the (potentially) dozens of extents per edited file. The Mojave installer converted my spinning external USB3 disk to APFS so Apple's gone down this rabbit hole and trying to drag us along. Sorry, Apple; everything I'm seeing about APFS is worrisome. More reliable than HFS+? I didn't have any issues with HFS+. I don't have any issues with HFS+. Of course, I still backup all my important data; momma didn't raise no fool.

oatman wrote:
"You can't keep HFS; and if you somehow manage to do (using CarbonCopy Cloner or by mounting the drive and copying stuff over) you will never be offered Software Updates or an avenue to upgrade your Mac."

No.
You CAN "keep HFS" if you wish.
I have an external SSD (connected via USB3) that has the latest version of Mojave on it running under HFS+.

It's a little more work than usual to maintain, but it IS possible and "do-able".

Here's how I do it:
1. I have a "mule drive" -- a second hard drive (old, platter-based) that has a copy of Mojave running in APFS. It's my ONLY APFS drive, and it is never used, except when an update becomes available.
2. When an update is needed, I boot from my mule drive, and run software update.
3. Software update "finds" the updates and then applies them to the mule drive.
4. When done, I connect my "working drive" (USB3 SSD).
5. I then run CarbonCopyCloner on it, cloning the entire drive WITH THE EXCEPTION OF the "users" folder.
6. When done, I power down, put the mule drive away, and then I can boot and run with my completely-updated copy of Mojave running under HFS+.

YES -- it is "a few extra steps".
BUT -- it WORKS.

That's how I do it.
Others may have a better way.

But again -- it CAN be done, if you want to take the extra steps to do it.

A disclaimer:
I don't know if this method can be used on a Mac's internal drive, particularly new MacBook Pro's with the t2 chip. I just don't know, because I don't have one and can't try it.
But it DOES work when you're willing to boot from an external drive as described above.

 

[MrGlen]

It isn't supported to skip conversion any longer. There are third-party patches to this.

Where?

 

[Maajid]

What about those of us who suffer from the flashing question mark folder issue? I've managed to install High Sierra on my rMBP 15 2017 with HFS+ because my SSD wouldn't get recognised as a viable startup disk when reformatted to APFS by the High Sierra installer.

How am I supposed to go about upgrading to Mojave?

 

[oatman13]

What about those of us who suffer from the flashing question mark folder issue? I've managed to install High Sierra on my rMBP 15 2017 with HFS+ because my SSD wouldn't get recognised as a viable startup disk when reformatted to APFS by the High Sierra installer.

How am I supposed to go about upgrading to Mojave?

Try Mojave, issue should be fixed.

 

[Maajid]

Try Mojave, issue should be fixed.

Tried installing it on your recommendation -- still the same issue. Installer converts my ssd to apfs which renders it unbootable ie it's not visible as a startup disk.

 

[crjackson2134]

Sounds like you need to upgrade your firmware.