Is It Worth Repairing a 2017 iMac With Frequent, Irritating and Undiagnosable Kernel Panics?

[Buadhai]

My old reliable 2017 21" iMac has suddenly caught the kernel panic disease. This began the day before I upgraded to MacOS 12.4 and has continued. I have exhausted my resources in trying to figure out what's going on. I have taken the following steps:

• Removed peripherals including an external monitor/adapter and USB hub.
• Restarted in recovery mode to run Disk Utility on the boot drive and reinstall Monterey. DU reported no problems.
• Restarted in diagnostic mode. No problems reported.
• Totally uninstalled iStat Menus as that seemed a likely suspect. Kernel Panics continue.
• And, yes, I've looked at this: If Your Mac Restarts and a Message Appears

The kernel panics happen at very irregular and seemingly random times. In the middle of the night when I'm asleep. When I'm reading something on Safari. When I'm connected to a remote machine via an SSH tunnel. No consistency at all.

Looking at the panic reports </Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/Retired/Kernel-2022-05-nn-nnnnn.panic> is remarkably unrevealing. The panicked thread/task named differs wildly and is often something like "kernel_task".

I can take it to a third party repair place and hope for the best. Or I can take it to an Apple contracted repair service provider. But, either way, what can they do to figure out what's wrong?

I'm thinking it's a lost cause.

Other opinions?

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Rule out Monterey 12.3+. Format an external with something that was working fine BEFORE 12.3 and use it for a while. If you still see random kernel panics that way, you can probably start assuming hardware something.

A fresh install of macOS < Monterey (whatever you were using before 12.3 that did NOT do this) might shine the light on 12.3 and 12.4 instead of other possibilities like some hardware conking out on you. IMO, Monterey is still pretty buggy- I have lots of issues with the jacks on a brand new Mac Ultra- even the ethernet jack. Very stable RAID drive is fine on Macs running < Monterey macOS but won't stay connected for more than a few hours when connected to a Monterey Mac. Etc. Thus, if me, I'd first rule out Monterey as the cause.

Anything else changed around the time this started happening? New hardware? Hub? Etc. If you can recall any other possible catalysts like that- even remote possibilities- get them back OUT of the setup while you run this pre-Monterey test. I just had a bizarre problem causing hard crashes when selecting Airply to only Sonos speakers (other stuff worked normally). Airplay to Sonos has worked fine before 12.4 upgrade too. Through much trial & error, I finally got the idea to try unhooking from Ethernet and try wifi. Airplay to Sonos worked fine again. Turned off wifi and hooked the same Ethernet cable back in. Airplay to Sonos worked fine again.

I miss "just works" Apple. But in the meantime, scrutinize everything. It very well could be 12.3 and 4 instead of aging hardware or third party software.

 

[Buadhai]

I hadn't changed anything recently either hardware or new software. (Lots of software updates, though.) External monitor and adapter have been there six months. USB hub is a couple of years old. Most recent hard drive addition was a couple of years ago. I did change routers several months ago and there is a CAT 5 cable between router and iMac. Maybe I'll disconnect the ethernet and just stick to WiFi a while.

It seems a bit crazy that this sort of thing is so hard to track down and that Apple doesn't really supply any tools to help.

 

[Buadhai]

One possible hint, both of this morning's kernel panics happened when I was filling out response fields in online forums with Safari. Once here and once on a garden pond forum. As I recall, this has happened a couple of times in the past few weeks. On the other hand, some of the panics happened when I was asleep or otherwise away from the machine and not doing anything.

 

[Fishrrman]

You could enroll in the Apple Developer program (free) and try the 12.5 developer beta. Probably won't hurt anymore than what you have now.

You could "roll back" to an earlier version of the OS (Catalina or Big Sur).

When the iMac was newer, did you add 3rd-party RAM?
If so, have you tried TAKING THAT OUT, so only the factory-installed RAM is there?

 

[Buadhai]

You could enroll in the Apple Developer program (free) and try the 12.5 developer beta. Probably won't hurt anymore than what you have now.

You could "roll back" to an earlier version of the OS (Catalina or Big Sur).

When the iMac was newer, did you add 3rd-party RAM?
If so, have you tried TAKING THAT OUT, so only the factory-installed RAM is there?

I am in the developer program, but didn't have great experiences installing beta versions of the OS in the past.

The iMac has no 3rd-party RAM.

Of course, the external drives are all third party as is the keyboard (Logitech K120).

I feel kind of sad that this Mac is failing. I also have a 2010 MBA, a 2010 White MacBook and a 2009 Mac mini. Both the MacBook and the Mini have third party RAM and SSDs. Both laptops have third party batteries. All three machines are still going strong. Never a Kernel Panic on any of them.

On this 2017 iMac the original Magic Mouse failed. The original keyboard failed. And now the Kernel Panics.

Whither Apple?

 

[Buadhai]

I had forgotten all about EtreCheck, so I decided to run it this morning. No big surprises. I did everything recommended including deleting .plist files of mine that were disabled, but still there. After I did everything recommended, I rebooted the machine and ran EtreCheck again just to see if I missed anything.

The machine had a kernel panic while running EtreCheck.

Oh, well.

 

[Buadhai]

Safe Mode

It was suggested elsewhere that I boot the machine into Safe Mode. I finally did this last night. I'd never done it before so didn't know what to expect. What I didn't expect was what a slug the machine would be in safe mode. It was barely useable. The pointer moved across the screen in fits and starts rather than the smooth motion to which I am accustomed. In text fields the insertion point kept disappearing.

I was actually grateful when there was another kernel panic and the machine rebooted into UnSafe Mode and again operated smoothly.

Is Safe Mode always like that?

 

[BeatCrazy]

Safe Mode

It was suggested elsewhere that I boot the machine into Safe Mode. I finally did this last night. I'd never done it before so didn't know what to expect. What I didn't expect was what a slug the machine would be in safe mode. It was barely useable. The pointer moved across the screen in fits and starts rather than the smooth motion to which I am accustomed. In text fields the insertion point kept disappearing.

I was actually grateful when there was another kernel panic and the machine rebooted into UnSafe Mode and again operated smoothly.

Is Safe Mode always like that?

Yes, Safe Mode is like that because macOS doesn't load the GPU drivers.

So, you did get another panic in Safe Model, it could be a hardware problem like a power supply or logic board.

 

[Buadhai]

Yes, Safe Mode is like that because macOS doesn't load the GPU drivers.

So, you did get another panic in Safe Model, it could be a hardware problem like a power supply or logic board.

If it’s either one of those it’s probably not worth repairing.

Incidentally, I booted the machine from a MemTest86 USB drive:

MemTest86 V9.4 Free (Build: 1000) Result summary
PassMark Software
www.passmark.com
Test Start Time: 2022-06-02 00:00:27
Elapsed Time: 3:22:42
CPUs Active: 4
CPU Temperature Min/Max/Ave: 67C/81C/72C
RAM Temperature Min/Max/Ave: 100C/142C/125C
# Tests Passed: 48/48 (100%)
Lowest Error Address: N/A
Highest Error Address: N/A
Bits in Error Mask: 0000000000000000
Bits in Error: Total: 0 Min: 0 Max: 0 Avg: 0
Max Contiguous Errors: 0

 

[BeatCrazy]

If it’s either one of those it’s probably not worth repairing.

Understandable. Consider donating it to a local MR member? Lots of folks love to tinker and help the community by testing software and hardware solutions via donor machines.

 

[Buadhai]

Understandable. Consider donating it to a local MR member? Lots of folks love to tinker and help the community by testing software and hardware solutions via donor machines.

I've done that often in the past, but to local schools. I live in Northeast Thailand (Nakhonratchasima -- AKA Korat). Any tinkering MR members nearby?

 

[Buadhai]

Although it may be too early to tell, it now appears that the kernel panics were caused by connecting a Samsung SSD to the iMac via a USB-C/Thunderbolt port. It was suggested that I swap the C-C cable for a C-A cable and connect the drive to one of the USB-A ports. I did that last Friday and haven't had a panic since then. It's still early days (96 hours), but I'm full of hope.

 

[Buadhai]

It was too early to tell. Just had another kernel panic this morning after four days without one. Same signature as all the others: 0x906e9

I guess it's time for a new machine.

 

[Buadhai]

Wait! I may have actually found the problem.

After I'd spent nearly a month trying different things and had mostly given up, I recalled that LaunchBar had been behaving oddly. For example, almost every time the machine booted up, LauncBar complained that it was unable to process the Applications indexing rule. I figured that this was a bogus error message as I was able to launch applications with LaunchBar as usual. Then I recalled that if I manually rebooted the machine, it always took a very long time for LaunchBar to quit. It was always the last app to quit.

So, I had a look at LaunchBar's Index. It turns out that there were two indexing rules called "Applications"; one in the General section and one in the Files & Folders section. I had a look at the unusual one and saw that it contained a real mishmash of locations and "Search for". None of it seemed like anything I would set up, so I deleted the rule.

Since doing so I have had not one single kernel panic. It's been nine days. I have written to Objective Development about the issue, but have yet to hear back.

I won't feel comfortable until a few weeks have passed, but this may be it.

Stay Tuned!

 

[Buadhai]

Well, it wasn't LauncBar.

 

[rpmurray]

I know the RAM test passed but you could try swapping out a few sticks just to see if anything different happens. I had kernel panics happening on a 2019 iMac and diagnostics and RAM test came up clean, but after removing half the RAM and trying different combinations I was able to determine that I had one stick that was failing intermittently. On an old Mac Pro I had a problem with kernel panics that turned out to be the coin battery on the logic board. Easy to fix on the Mac Pro but you'd need to take the whole iMac apart to get to it since I believe it's on the backside of the logic board. Just tossing this out there since nothing else has seemed to work for you yet.

 

[Buadhai]

Thanks. You may be right.

I had a look at the iFixit page on the 2017 iMac: iMac Intel 21.5" Retina 4K Display (2017) RAM Replacement

I don't think my skills or manual dexterity (or toolbox) are up to the task (64 steps!). Note that I have replaced batteries in old MBAs and upgraded the RAM and installed an SSD in an old white 2010 MacBook, but those tasks just involved keeping track of a bunch of tiny screws. Having to break through adhesive freaks me out a bit.

I could pay a shop to do this, but that brings us back to the original question: Is it worth it?

In any event, the number of panics has decreased somewhat:

Kernel-2022-06-22-205001.panic - Kernel-2022-06-23-132512.panic
Kernel-2022-06-22-205425.panic - Kernel-2022-06-23-133018.panic
Kernel-2022-06-23-094114.panic - Kernel-2022-06-24-045610.panic
Kernel-2022-06-23-094618.panic - Kernel-2022-06-29-090713.panic
Kernel-2022-06-23-131958.panic - Kernel-2022-06-29-154631.panic

 

[Buadhai]

Another question: If I were to remove a RAM stick, what would be the drill? This machine has gone up to ten days without a panic. So, I guess I'd need remove a RAM stick and leave it out for at least ten days in order to make sure it was really the culprit. And I'd have to reassemble the machine to actually use it. And, if the machine panicked with one stick out, then I'd repeat the whole process again with the other stick. And then if it still panicked I'd know it's not the RAM. Wow.

 

[rovostrov]

I was having several panics a day and tried many things for many weeks to no avail. I finally solved it by wiping the SSD and installing a fresh copy of the OS. Since then, all has been great. No panics and it even fixed a few other glitches I had been experiencing. I had been updating the OS for several years so a clean install was in order.

 

[Buadhai]

I was having several panics a day and tried many things for many weeks to no avail. I finally solved it by wiping the SSD and installing a fresh copy of the OS. Since then, all has been great. No panics and it even fixed a few other glitches I had been experiencing. I had been updating the OS for several years so a clean install was in order.

What specific problem do you think that solved?

 

[rovostrov]

What specific problem do you think that solved?

Besides the daily kernel panic issues, It also solved a problem I was having with spotlight not finding results for files it should have been showing. Also, there were some glitches with preview where some pdf's were shown with black backgroud and yellow text, and occasionally preview would freeze and quite unexpectedly. Was also having some trouble with safari not displaying websites correctly and sometimes mail would freeze and have to be force quit and the system rebooted. Internet recovery would fail before but now it works properly as well. I tried for quite some time, uninstalling programs and making changes in terminal that I thought were causing the problems, but none of that worked. I believe it was just years of system updates and upgrades. The solution for me was a fresh install which was less painful than I thought it would be. I had a recent time machine backup and manually moved my files back over to the machine afterwards. I spent much more time trying to figure out what was wrong than wiping the drive and starting over. Everything is working great now, no complaints.

 

[Fishrrman]

OP:

In your original post, you wrote:
"This began the day before I upgraded to MacOS 12.4 and has continued"

Have you ever considered "going back" to a version of the OS earlier than 12.4?
After all, you have specified a "definitive event", AFTER WHICH the problems started.

It would seem to me that the first rule of problem-solving would be to go back to the state that existed BEFORE this "event".

Or, perhaps something got munged during the upgrade, some part of the OS.
As was mentioned by another poster in this thread, perhaps a "wipe and restore of the OS" (which would mean erasing the whole drive) might be in order.

Finally, ONCE AGAIN I will suggest to you:
TAKE OUT the 3rd-party RAM, and try running with ONLY the Apple-installed RAM.
Run at least a week this way to see if the situation changes...

 

[rpmurray]

Finally, ONCE AGAIN I will suggest to you:
TAKE OUT the 3rd-party RAM, and try running with ONLY the Apple-installed RAM.
Run at least a week this way to see if the situation changes...

In post #4 the OP said:

The iMac has no 3rd-party RAM.

So that is a dead-end.

OP, in post #10 you said you ran MemTest86 V9.4, and it appears to have run for 48 tests. How long did that take? If only a couple of hours or so could you try running it overnight to see if it fails with more time? The thing that concerns me is the RAM Temperature Min/Max/Ave: 100C/142C/125C. That's mighty high. I'm wondering if you have a fan failure or perhaps dust buildup where it's not getting sufficient cooling.

Edit: I see where it took a bit over three hours. So you may want o run it for a longer time period during time when you wouldn't be using it for anything else. But I'd check that heat problem first. You could try installing Macs Fen Control (it's free) and see if you can bring those temps down or if it reports a failed sensor or fan.

 

[Fishrrman]

rp wrote:
"The iMac has no 3rd-party RAM.
So that is a dead-end"

OK, I'll give up on that.
But kernel panics usually are related to some kind of hardware problem.

He did mention that his problems began right after he upgraded to 12.4. ...