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Is the 13" rMBP worth the extra $325 over the same 13" uMBP?

  • Yes

    Votes: 83 56.5%
  • No

    Votes: 64 43.5%

  • Total voters
    147
Yeah, I agree with all you said there! I think we've kinda hit a wall with where computer upgradeability is, now. We've been coming toward this point in integration for a while, and thus, we've finally hit it.

As for the issue about the battery, yes, it's a little troubling. The MacBook Pro's battery is best in class, and having those cells glued in the Retina models whereas other models just took a simple fix is a little...troubling. It puts the ball in Apple's court a little too much, but hey, we're in the minority here.

In perspective, I guess that's how it all is. Most MacBook users won't even want to go near their precious, +$1000 computers because they feel like they'll break something. I work in IT, and I know the sentiment all too much. I guess we'll just all have to get used to it, but in the mean time...who says we can't enjoy our current, classic, serviceable machines, right?

Exactly. I bought my MacBook Pro in December of 2012. I didn't buy it 5 years from now. 5 years from now things may change, but right here right now there are NO performance advantages to the retina model. The display is brilliant, of course, but since performance is identical the decision, RIGHT NOW (doesn't matter if it changes in the future, I bought it RIGHT NOW), is between a display and upgradability. I'll cling to upgradability for a little while longer!

I understand the sentiment too, I guess, but, I grew up with computers in the early 90's. Back then, computers ALL cost as much as an Apple, and we ALL upgraded them. You had a big book that came with them detailing how to upgrade different parts. I mean it was a constant thing to be upgrading things. So, for me, taking a screwdriver to my MBP is no big deal. I mean it's just a couple phillips screws, and a pair of thumbs, and you can upgrade the RAM and the Hard Drive!

-John

I thought about just buying the 13in retina but the ssd is only 128gb, and its still not user upgradable.

I dont really think its worth it unless you want that crazy screen resolution.

The SSD actually IS user upgradable, it's just only one company is currently making them. (OWC). They are expensive, yet reasonable. What I mean by that is, they cost hundreds more than equivalent 2.5" SSD's, but they cost hundreds less than Apple. As has been mentioned in this thread, OWC has a 480GB drive for around $600 smackers.
 
The SSD actually IS user upgradable, it's just only one company is currently making them. (OWC). They are expensive, yet reasonable. What I mean by that is, they cost hundreds more than equivalent 2.5" SSD's, but they cost hundreds less than Apple. As has been mentioned in this thread, OWC has a 480GB drive for around $600 smackers.

Wow I didn't even realize this. Ah well, what's done is done.
 
I have a non retina MBP and I'm quite happy. Then again I don't understand what is the difference since I'm new to Macs in general. I love my MBP it does what I need it to do and it's what I could afford at the time.
 
I have a non retina MBP and I'm quite happy. Then again I don't understand what is the difference since I'm new to Macs in general. I love my MBP it does what I need it to do and it's what I could afford at the time.

There are some advantages.

For one, obviously, is the display. It has more pixels than my $1,000 27" ultra high resolution display I use for photo editing. It's also an IPS display which means better viewing angles and more accurate color.

Beyond that, it's thinner, lighter, and has an SSD standard. It also has two thunderbolt ports and an HDMI port.

None of this may matter to a casual user however. It's quite a bit of money for the ultimate facebook status updater! So it's not for everyone.
 
People keep saying how if you do so and so upgrades then the rMBP is only a few hundred $ more. Why not upgrade to the 15" for a couple hundred $ extra while you're at it!

If you are on a tight budget (like me) chances are is that you don't have that extra couple hundred kicking about. Purchasing the 13" MBP was an absolute stretch for me personally and I honestly don't think its worth spending extra for the 13" rMBP, would rather save and buy a 15" rMBP.
 
People keep saying how if you do so and so upgrades then the rMBP is only a few hundred $ more. Why not upgrade to the 15" for a couple hundred $ extra while you're at it!

If you are on a tight budget (like me) chances are is that you don't have that extra couple hundred kicking about. Purchasing the 13" MBP was an absolute stretch for me personally and I honestly don't think its worth spending extra for the 13" rMBP, would rather save and buy a 15" rMBP.

Exactly. Especially comments about the 15" being a better value. Sure, and I agree, but better value or not it STILL costs more!
 
Yes, there have been speed and I/O upgrades over the years and the cMBP is no slouch in that department. My point was that if you're into the latest/greatest design from Apple (like many Apple fanatics are), the cMBP is over 4 years old already - an eternity in modern electronics. The weight, thickness, and most off all, the screen technology in a world where screens are all the rage are quite dated. And, if user-upgrades aren't important to you, shelling out a little bit more for an SSD-equipped Retina-screened MBP makes more sense to me if you want to not feel behind the times in a year or so when the cMBP is discontinued.

When the unibody design first came out, it was very easy to look at the older design and feel like it was rightfully outdated. It was a rightfully better design, one that was as practical as it was elegant. It was far easier to repair, and it allowed for Apple to make some serious improvements to things well beyond aesthetics.

Today, I can't look at the retina and feel like that older unibody design is all that dated. Beyond that, I can't look at the retina and feel like it's a BETTER design, because it simply isn't. Yes, it's thinner, and it's definitely still a looker. But that beauty is only skin deep, and to me (and I think for a lot of people) the beauty of what's inside is just as important if not moreso. Glued battery is conceptually ugly. Soldered RAM (while acceptable on the MacBook Air) is conceptually ugly on a notebook designed for creative professionals. A proprietary SSD type and screws that are designed to keep me out of my own computer (where the previous design almost invited me to take a screw driver to it) is conceptually ugly. Otherwise, compared to the older style, the newer style really isn't that much prettier. Also, for those buying Ivy Bridge-powered models, the two machines are just as old as each other.

Newer design and the clamor over it is entirely superficial. In the case of the 2008/9 redesign, it was much more than a superficial change; the computer was way better engineered. In the case of the retina redesign, we have a nicer screen, a needlessly thinner body, and a whole lot of compromise as a result. I see nothing to clamor about.

Ethernet on laptop is unnecessary for 95% of users. It's like bitching why it doesn't have VGA (still more people connect their laptops to cheapo projectors more often than on ethernet).
2TB ports + discrete video port is a lot more.
cMBP + external display and you are left with no TB ports to use for high speed expandability.

Firewire800 is going to die, its basically dead. I use it all the time (bought the adapter along with the laptop) and even I prefer than I can transform it into something else...

I won't argue with you on your point about FireWire 800, but I will about Gigabit Ethernet. Gigabit Ethernet is superior to WiFi when it comes to nearly every use. With computer to computer file transfers, it's way faster and way more reliable than WiFi, and when it comes to Internet connection, it's much more reliable which tends to result in something that feels like faster internet when it's really just a substantially less amount of packets being dropped.

Also, if you are unfortunate enough to have a router with slowly worsening wireless problems but with consistent ethernet performance, having Ethernet is useful as all hell. Really, it's no biggie, I have the complete collection of Apple Thunderbolt cables (save for the 0.5m one that they just released), so them giving me an extra Thunderbolt port in lieu of the Ethernet port isn't a big deal to me, but to say it's not a useful port is something I disagree with.

Right? For me, I'm happy I see the practicality in being able to swap out things at ease I definitely wouldn't want glued to a logic board. Yet, like the poster said above, it'll be a fate one day we inevitably have to go through. I know for certain my next computer will be a MacBook Air, but that's 4-5 years from now. For now, I take pride in the fact I have an extremely fast, extremely serviceable machine...I'll live with the screen.

Having just gotten a top of the line non-retina 15" MacBook Pro, I feel like by the time it is naturally time to replace this machine with a newer one, I will be substantially more comfortable with the changes that the retina MacBook Pro models are bringing with them today than I am today. I have roughly five years to enjoy the software that I have that will never be updated with retina support, and I have roughly five years to ease into the idea that my optical drive will eventually be external and used less and less frequently. I will have roughly five years to enjoy relative upgradeability, and hopefully in that time, SSD prices go down and capacities (especially those of the mSATA variety that Apple will likely use the hell out of) will go up. Hopefully, in five years, a majority of Apple apps that will run on whatever OS Apple is shipping on those MacBook Pros will be retina-optimized. In the meantime, I am fully convinced that what I have is the perfect machine given where we are in this retina transition.
 
When the unibody design first came out, it was very easy to look at the older design and feel like it was rightfully outdated. It was a rightfully better design, one that was as practical as it was elegant. It was far easier to repair, and it allowed for Apple to make some serious improvements to things well beyond aesthetics.

Actually, the shift from cMBP to uMBP was purely aesthetic. Functionality was the same (aside DVI and FW400 port) and the internals were barely updated (bump to 1066mhz ram, bump to 9600m from 8600m, c2d cpu bump), the computer while looked completely different wasn't significantly lighter, more quiet, more portable, it even took them 1gen to update the display to a bigger resolution! It is more durable and robust though.

As far as practical goes, the first revision already took away everything that was so practical about it (hinge replaceable battery and drive)...
I should know, I waited for the update, it was my first laptop.

Today, I can't look at the retina and feel like that older unibody design is all that dated. Beyond that, I can't look at the retina and feel like it's a BETTER design, because it simply isn't. Yes, it's thinner, and it's definitely still a looker. But that beauty is only skin deep, and to me (and I think for a lot of people) the beauty of what's inside is just as important if not moreso. Glued battery is conceptually ugly. Soldered RAM (while acceptable on the MacBook Air) is conceptually ugly on a notebook designed for creative professionals. A proprietary SSD type and screws that are designed to keep me out of my own computer (where the previous design almost invited me to take a screw driver to it) is conceptually ugly. Otherwise, compared to the older style, the newer style really isn't that much prettier. Also, for those buying Ivy Bridge-powered models, the two machines are just as old as each other.

Newer design and the clamor over it is entirely superficial. In the case of the 2008/9 redesign, it was much more than a superficial change; the computer was way better engineered. In the case of the retina redesign, we have a nicer screen, a needlessly thinner body, and a whole lot of compromise as a result. I see nothing to clamor about.

As I said, retina is a completely re-engineered laptop that looks completely the same on the outside.
Its more quiet, it has a brad new screen, it has impressive battery life (given the screen it has to power), it has thermals so good they could overclock the GPU, while running tons more silent then its predecessor.

You're very likely to hit other walls before you hit the 16GB soldered ram as a bottleneck.

Needlessly thinner body? This is arguable. It is a laptop, and portability is something a lot of people care about. I personally wanted a 13" unibody but it lacked FW port.

While I do miss 2nd drive bay - which is much more annoying to me than soldered ram - I'll get by. one battery cell less and an mSATA port would make this machine perfect.

I won't argue with you on your point about FireWire 800, but I will about Gigabit Ethernet. Gigabit Ethernet is superior to WiFi when it comes to nearly every use. With computer to computer file transfers, it's way faster and way more reliable than WiFi, and when it comes to Internet connection, it's much more reliable which tends to result in something that feels like faster internet when it's really just a substantially less amount of packets being dropped.

Also, if you are unfortunate enough to have a router with slowly worsening wireless problems but with consistent ethernet performance, having Ethernet is useful as all hell. Really, it's no biggie, I have the complete collection of Apple Thunderbolt cables (save for the 0.5m one that they just released), so them giving me an extra Thunderbolt port in lieu of the Ethernet port isn't a big deal to me, but to say it's not a useful port is something I disagree with.
Never said it isn't useful, I said it isn't hindered at all by being accessible via universal adapter (TB).
As I said, people still use a LOT of VGA because projectors isn't something people just replace. They replace it when they die and a lot of them are still accepting VGA.
Heck, I was using a 8k lux projector at 1080p via VGA just a week ago...

Having just gotten a top of the line non-retina 15" MacBook Pro, I feel like by the time it is naturally time to replace this machine with a newer one, I will be substantially more comfortable with the changes that the retina MacBook Pro models are bringing with them today than I am today. I have roughly five years to enjoy the software that I have that will never be updated with retina support, and I have roughly five years to ease into the idea that my optical drive will eventually be external and used less and less frequently. I will have roughly five years to enjoy relative upgradeability, and hopefully in that time, SSD prices go down and capacities (especially those of the mSATA variety that Apple will likely use the hell out of) will go up. Hopefully, in five years, a majority of Apple apps that will run on whatever OS Apple is shipping on those MacBook Pros will be retina-optimized. In the meantime, I am fully convinced that what I have is the perfect machine given where we are in this retina transition.
I haven't used ODD for a year when I bought mine, thats when I replaced it with a 2nd drive caddy. :) I don't miss it at all.

Mind you if there weren't some of us *******s who did buy retina, transition would never happen - for better or worse.
 
well, I for one would be screwed if I got the retina... bought my classic with 8GB thinking that would be enough, happens that it is not and I had to upgrade it to 16GB (VMs).

wish apple or someone else would sell an upgraded screen for it tough, 1280x800 is a little tight, I'd like an IPS 1080p at least :D
 
The SSD actually IS user upgradable,

This is debatable. The term user upgradeable has traditionally referred to those parts of a Apple laptop, which:
- are sold separately in well stocked specialist stores
- are easy to change (even without specialist tools)
- are marked by Apple as "user upgradeable"

If understood this way, the SSD's in retinas do not fit the bill. The "pentalobe" screws Apple uses to secure the bottomplate of the retinas are considered "anti-tamper" -screws, thus indicating that Apple does not intend any user upgrades inside...
I've yet to hear whether doing so might actually void the warranty...

Then again, if compared to the RAM in a retina, the SSD is upgradeable in the sense that it is physically possible to do so without changing logic boards...

RGDS,
 
This is debatable. The term user upgradeable has traditionally referred to those parts of a Apple laptop, which:
- are sold separately in well stocked specialist stores
- are easy to change (even without specialist tools)
- are marked by Apple as "user upgradeable"

If understood this way, the SSD's in retinas do not fit the bill. The "pentalobe" screws Apple uses to secure the bottomplate of the retinas are considered "anti-tamper" -screws, thus indicating that Apple does not intend any user upgrades inside...
I've yet to hear whether doing so might actually void the warranty...

Then again, if compared to the RAM in a retina, the SSD is upgradeable in the sense that it is physically possible to do so without changing logic boards...

RGDS,
Well... the original uMBP had the HDD accessible via magnetic hinge on the back.
While you MAY nitpick about user-upgradabilty (afaik warranty is void if you break something while replacing it in the uMBP, which is, compared to original uMBP not really accessible.), the fact is you actually need to remove LESS screws to replace the SSD on the retina.

However IF you want to disconnect power you have to remove the battery sticker on the retina, while there is non on the uMBP. So yeah... You are possibly voiding the warranty.

There has been some misunderstandings about drive upgrade - if you ask in the Apple store they WILL tell you that it voids warranty and that you need to bring the computer in for them to replace. However to peoples experience, this hasn't happened ever - no problem bringing it in with upgraded drive for a different repair under warranty.

This might be the case with the retina ALSO, in worst case scenario you would need to replace the drive with the original drive before sending it in under warranty.

The last MBP that had a "manual" not a quickstart guide was 2011 model, 2012 officially doesn't have that guide anymore...
http://manuals.info.apple.com/en_US/macbook_pro_15inch_late_2011.pdf
 
When the unibody design first came out, it was very easy to look at the older design and feel like it was rightfully outdated. It was a rightfully better design, one that was as practical as it was elegant. It was far easier to repair, and it allowed for Apple to make some serious improvements to things well beyond aesthetics.

Today, I can't look at the retina and feel like that older unibody design is all that dated. Beyond that, I can't look at the retina and feel like it's a BETTER design, because it simply isn't. Yes, it's thinner, and it's definitely still a looker. But that beauty is only skin deep, and to me (and I think for a lot of people) the beauty of what's inside is just as important if not moreso. Glued battery is conceptually ugly. Soldered RAM (while acceptable on the MacBook Air) is conceptually ugly on a notebook designed for creative professionals. A proprietary SSD type and screws that are designed to keep me out of my own computer (where the previous design almost invited me to take a screw driver to it) is conceptually ugly. Otherwise, compared to the older style, the newer style really isn't that much prettier. Also, for those buying Ivy Bridge-powered models, the two machines are just as old as each other.

All fair points and if the cMBP is what you want, than so be it. But the fact is, you'll be on this site a lot in the coming months. Checking in on what people are saying about the rMBP. When it gets updated with Haswell and perhaps starts shipping with higher capacity SSD's, you'll get that itch. When Apple announces that they've officially discontinued production of the "old" MacBook Pros, you'll get even itchier. In the weeks to follow, you'll walk by the Apple Store at the mall and always stop in just to take a look at the retina to convince yourself you don't need it. And every time you lay eyes on that screen, you'll start wondering if it's time to hop on the bandwagon.

It's now January 2014. You paid full price for a cMBP just 12 months ago, and now you want to go retina. The resale value of your end-of-lifed cMBP has plummeted and now you'll have to eat even more dough to go retina - a full year and a half into the life cycle of its design.

Meanwhile the early rMBP adopters have been enjoying retina for a year and will be content with their purchase for years to come, getting the full enjoyment out of the product's design life cycle. Sure, it will get faster with time, but we will walk by the Apple Store all year and beyond without wondering what could be.:apple:;)
 
All fair points and if the cMBP is what you want, than so be it. But the fact is, you'll be on this site a lot in the coming months. Checking in on what people are saying about the rMBP. When it gets updated with Haswell and perhaps starts shipping with higher capacity SSD's, you'll get that itch. When Apple announces that they've officially discontinued production of the "old" MacBook Pros, you'll get even itchier. In the weeks to follow, you'll walk by the Apple Store at the mall and always stop in just to take a look at the retina to convince yourself you don't need it. And every time you lay eyes on that screen, you'll start wondering if it's time to hop on the bandwagon.

It's now January 2014. You paid full price for a cMBP just 12 months ago, and now you want to go retina. The resale value of your end-of-lifed cMBP has plummeted and now you'll have to eat even more dough to go retina - a full year and a half into the life cycle of its design.


Meanwhile the early rMBP adopters have been enjoying retina for a year and will be content with their purchase for years to come, getting the full enjoyment out of the product's design life cycle. Sure, it will get faster with time, but we will walk by the Apple Store all year and beyond without wondering what could be.:apple:;)

Or he'll be happy using his FW drives, connected to his Ethernet port, with a TB of SSD..believe it or not some folk are honest to goodness just not that impressed with the magic display, I played with a 15" rMBP for a work week and was more than happy to go back to my 17". But hey I still use DVD's, ethernet, and non TB display's, and espress cards.
 
Or he'll be happy using his FW drives, connected to his Ethernet port, with a TB of SSD..believe it or not some folk are honest to goodness just not that impressed with the magic display, I played with a 15" rMBP for a work week and was more than happy to go back to my 17". But hey I still use DVD's, ethernet, and non TB display's, and espress cards.

But you act as if it isn't possible to get those with a rMBP. Ethernet and Firewire are just $29 adapters away. Even DVDs are still possible. Apple no longer makes a notebook supporting ExpressCard, though, cMBP or rMBP.

The reason I switched to MacBook Airs and later the rMBP is that I don't like carrying around the extra weight for things I rarely use. I think I've used the DVD drive on my office Windows notebook about 5 times in 3 years. I've never used the VGA port. At some point it makes sense to move on and just use adapters the rare times they are necessary.
 
But you act as if it isn't possible to get those with a rMBP. Ethernet and Firewire are just $29 adapters away. Even DVDs are still possible. Apple no longer makes a notebook supporting ExpressCard, though, cMBP or rMBP.

The reason I switched to MacBook Airs and later the rMBP is that I don't like carrying around the extra weight for things I rarely use. I think I've used the DVD drive on my office Windows notebook about 5 times in 3 years. I've never used the VGA port. At some point it makes sense to move on and just use adapters the rare times they are necessary.

Because they are things you don't use doesn't me we don't use..you probably don't use eSATA, you probably don't use CF cards, you probably don't use a serial port, and you probably don't use a smart card reader. Some of these things are available with USB some are not and some that are don't work but all do with my version of a dongle.

In the end taking away flexibility doesn't help the consumer but it does help Apple.
 
In the end taking away flexibility doesn't help the consumer but it does help Apple.

But by that logic, we'd all be better served with 2" thick notebooks with RS-232 ports, Centronics, SCSI, and ADB ports since we'd have the "flexibility" to connect to older equipment. By and large the world has standardized on USB, and that's a good thing. Thunderbolt is fine for displays and applications where USB doesn't provide enough throughput.
 
But by that logic, we'd all be better served with 2" thick notebooks with RS-232 ports, Centronics, SCSI, and ADB ports since we'd have the "flexibility" to connect to older equipment. By and large the world has standardized on USB, and that's a good thing. Thunderbolt is fine for displays and applications where USB doesn't provide enough throughput.

or and express card slot..the 17" isn't any fatter than any other cMBP My dongles will run everything I need them too and fit just stick out a bit from the chassis..

There are TB to express cards slots but it is a bit more convenient to when they don't stick out and require another cable

Different folks have different needs and it's cool..
 
Do you want a 13" Laptop with 1680x1050 resolution? Get the Retina. Can you live with the 8GB RAM and no DVD drive? Get the Retina.
 
After 5 months of a 15" retina, all I can say is once you go retina you'll never ever go back. A 15" "full hd" (1920x1080) screen looks like it is 10 years old and the old 1440x800 looks 20 years old.

Exaggeration yes but you get my point in reference to the display. :D
 
This is debatable. The term user upgradeable has traditionally referred to those parts of a Apple laptop, which:
- are sold separately in well stocked specialist stores
- are easy to change (even without specialist tools)
- are marked by Apple as "user upgradeable"

If understood this way, the SSD's in retinas do not fit the bill. The "pentalobe" screws Apple uses to secure the bottomplate of the retinas are considered "anti-tamper" -screws, thus indicating that Apple does not intend any user upgrades inside...
I've yet to hear whether doing so might actually void the warranty...

Then again, if compared to the RAM in a retina, the SSD is upgradeable in the sense that it is physically possible to do so without changing logic boards...

RGDS,

OWC does provide a third party alternative to the SSD, so while it's only one brand.. there IS an aftermarket.

I get what you're saying though. Though, I've never been scared away by 'anti tamper' screws. IMO, anti-tamper screws are called break-off head bolts, in which once a certain amount of torque is applied the head breaks leaving a smooth circular screw head that can only be removed with a drill or an EZ-out tool. Apple hasn't gone that far yet! Anything else is just a cheap screwdriver you can buy at a hardware store.

But I guess I also consider the Battery to be user-replaceable in the non-Retina. No glue, no special tools (aside from certain screwdrivers) and no real intense technical understanding needed.

Though I suppose I see your point. It's not surprising though, we're moving away from upgradability, but despite what some say this has been a move that has been happening since the early 90's. More and more components have been integrated. Early motherboards had a CPU socket and RAM, that's it. Sound, Video, Hard Disk Controllers, etc., all had to be added and were upgradable. The times, they are a' changin'. My first notebook had soldered on RAM by the way. Also had a 16MHz Processor!
 
Great dialogue and points made in this thread everyone! I also appreciate the many votes. Unfortunately, it seems like a statistically split decision so far.
 
Great dialogue and points made in this thread everyone! I also appreciate the many votes. Unfortunately, it seems like a statistically split decision so far.

I see you already have a 2012 13" 2.5GHz cMBP. Are you thinking about returning it and replacing it with a rMBP?
 
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