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filbert42

macrumors member
Original poster
Jul 20, 2014
92
20
Worcestershire, UK
As the subject says - I'm happy with my iPhone 7's TouchID but it's getting cranky and I pretty much will have to get an iPhone with FaceID but I don't like the idea of the camera being on all the time - it seems like a really bad idea from a privacy point of view.

I can't find anyt discsusins of the system from this perspective - does it work a different way or what?
 
As the subject says - I'm happy with my iPhone 7's TouchID but it's getting cranky and I pretty much will have to get an iPhone with FaceID but I don't like the idea of the camera being on all the time - it seems like a really bad idea from a privacy point of view.

I can't find anyt discsusins of the system from this perspective - does it work a different way or what?

It's not the same camera - see this page for more info:
 
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Camera shouldn't be on unless it is needed for FaceID otherwise it would be a battery drain.
 
I don't think it's always on but it can come on when you might not expect. Under settings "Attention Aware Features" it says "iPhone will check for attention before dimming the display". I was wondering why my phone wasn't dimming after 2 minutes when it happened to me.
 
Camera shouldn't be on unless it is needed for FaceID otherwise it would be a battery drain.
But how will it know its needed for FaceID unless it's on?
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It's not the same camera - see this page for more info:

Thanks for the link - but that article talks about something called the "TrueDepth camera". It doesn't make it clear what sort of camera it is but it does imply it's different to the "front camera". It also says the system is active even if you don't set up FaceID - that sounds even worse as I thought I could disable it by not using FaceID.
 
But how will it know its needed for FaceID unless it's on?

Because you requested a function that is setup to use Face ID. Want to use it to unlock the phone? It will turn on when you awake it on the lock screen. Want to use Apple Pay? It will turn on to go through the authentication process. Have apps you have selected to use Face ID to login? Same thing. It will turn on when you go to login.
 
But how will it know its needed for FaceID unless it's on?
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Thanks for the link - but that article talks about something called the "TrueDepth camera". It doesn't make it clear what sort of camera it is but it does imply it's different to the "front camera". It also says the system is active even if you don't set up FaceID - that sounds even worse as I thought I could disable it by not using FaceID.

Your concern is understandable but unfounded. Security experts have come up empty handed if they stick to the facts.

Your terminology is using some assumptions and/or lack of understanding.

FaceID is the authentication process used decrypt sensitive data including unlocking the iPhone.

TrueDepth camera is depth mapping hardware that is used by FaceID. There are 3 main parts, an infrared camera, infrared flood illuminator and infrared dot projector.

The data FaceID stores is a mathematical representation of your face that is unique to you but can't be identified as you without comparing to another representation collected the same way. That is stored locally on the secure enclave outside of the storage and its not accessible.

When FaceID is used the infrared camera and flood illuminator (if required) look for the "new face" to be looking at the device. Once that is seen the dot projector gathers information and compares to the store data. Nothing is recorded except whether the new face was a match. If not it will log that failures attempt and try again. After 5 times it defaults to the password.

3rd party apps dont have access to FaceID they just have access to asking iOS to use it. iOS will let the app know if it was a pass or fail.

Parts of the TrueDepth camera are used in the iOS for example Animoji's use the dot projector while attention awareness features use the infrared camera and flood illuminator (if required).

The actual front camera that captures actual images isn't used in any of the above processes. It can actually be carefully covered to see FaceID will still work.
 
As the subject says - I'm happy with my iPhone 7's TouchID but it's getting cranky and I pretty much will have to get an iPhone with FaceID but I don't like the idea of the camera being on all the time - it seems like a really bad idea from a privacy point of view.

I can't find anyt discsusins of the system from this perspective - does it work a different way or what?
Perhaps the new iPhone 9 (SE2) would interest you. It doesn't have FaceID or OLED. The form factor is exactly the same as your iPhone 7 but with significantly upgraded internals... I don't understand why you'd get a phone with security features you're not comfortable with or understand the technology involved. Plenty of choices out there without facial biometric security...
 
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Your concern is understandable but unfounded. Security experts have come up empty handed if they stick to the facts.

Your terminology is using some assumptions and/or lack of understanding.
... snip ...

I hold my hand up to a lack of understanding - I have done a fair bit of googling but didn't find a clear explanation, you are the first that I have seen to set it out clearly. Thanks that's very helpful. Coincidentally, I had the opportunity to visit an Apple Store (something I almost never a able to do) the other day and asked the question of one of their 'genius' guys. He pretty much said the same thing.

I am reassured and have now found a 256GB iPhone Xs at a good price (I guess it's a clearance item, as Apple don't advertise it any more). So far it suits me just fine.
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Perhaps the new iPhone 9 (SE2) would interest you. It doesn't have FaceID or OLED. The form factor is exactly the same as your iPhone 7 but with significantly upgraded internals... I don't understand why you'd get a phone with security features you're not comfortable with or understand the technology involved. Plenty of choices out there without facial biometric security...

Thanks, that was certainly something I was thinking about but it looks like it will be a while before it comes out, especially with the shutdowns in China.
 
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You all,who are concerned regarding FaceID, should be massively concerned about the tracking that the iPhone does. Huge privacy issue and there isn’t anything you can do about it if you own a iPhone.
cheers :)
 
You all,who are concerned regarding FaceID, should be massively concerned about the tracking that the iPhone does. Huge privacy issue and there isn’t anything you can do about it if you own a iPhone.
cheers :)
My kids use our old phones with no sim and a cellular iPad mini4 with no sim, but with find my iPhone I can see them cruising down the highway 50 miles away. Cellular is turned off too. Just throwing that out there.
 
My kids use our old phones with no sim and a cellular iPad mini4 with no sim, but with find my iPhone I can see them cruising down the highway 50 miles away. Cellular is turned off too. Just throwing that out there.
It’s much worse than that even.
Android has much of the same problems, however, depending on the phone, some of it can actually be turned off.
Apple and Google are both high trackers (read spies), however on Android one can “degoogle” the phone. With Apple there is no way to “deApple” the phone.
 
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I don't think it's always on but it can come on when you might not expect. Under settings "Attention Aware Features" it says "iPhone will check for attention before dimming the display". I was wondering why my phone wasn't dimming after 2 minutes when it happened to me.
That’s not how it works. The FaceID sensor checks if your face is still in front of your display. Not the camera.
 
It’s much worse than that even.
Android has much of the same problems, however, depending on the phone, some of it can actually be turned off.
Apple and Google are both high trackers (read spies), however on Android one can “degoogle” the phone. With Apple there is no way to “deApple” the phone.

Apple gets it coming and going don't they? They are highly criticized due to the hoops government agencies have to jump through to get the little bit of data they keep on users just to be criticized they are sharing it with everyone.

This is a moot point on this specific topic. FaceID is stored in Apples Secure Enclave which never (can't) leave the device. If it puts some peoples mind at easy, the Secure Enclave is its own kernel and is essentially work around iOS so it can't be directly interacted with from any OS included iOS. Its as de-appled as it can get and still be inside the iPhone sold that way directly from Apple.

Tracking is clearly a concern for many which is understandable however the fundamental flaw with that logic is the concern is based off a smartphone telling you its recording you location and showing you precisely on a map. Basically the data is presented in a user friendly manor making it look 'easy'. However any cell phone that is turned on (many don't even need a sim in them) and is in range of a cellular tower can be tracked within a 30 meter diameter sometimes less. Typically a cellular provider rents space on a cell tower, them knowing amount of users, specific users, type of device, range and location from tower, etc etc is basic data they need to optimize equipment to minimize expense.

However is this really an issue? The people I know that are truly concerned with privacy at these levels of paranoia will inconvenience themselves and not use devices they don't trust. An employee of a subcontractor I use for work has gone as far as carrying a dumb phone and digital camera (network based cameras record location, time and date in metadata). It's tough for me to understand why people continue to use the device they feel is threatening their privacy and security.....it's almost baffling.

De-appling an iPhone is also robbing Peter to pay Paul to some extent. There are some good reasons to have a company specifically like Apple managing your data.

1. They have well defined an published privacy statements on how user data is collect, used, sold and shared.

2. Apple is essentially a single entity with the money and personnel with the technical abilities to securely store and maintain your data. While their servers are referenced as "unhackable" (which we know isn't true) it's safe to say they are infinitely better than many alternatives. Point being not only are iCloud services convenient but they offer better security and thus better privacy then maintaining your own data at home. Also being automated it never lets its guard down like a people would enviably do.

3. Everything that goes to and/or through Apple is encrypted. Using methods that utilize Apples services are typically more secure and private than alternatives. iMessage vs SMS for example, you might as well just use a plane with an advertising banner trailing behind it to send a message via SMS.

4. They use advertising identifier numbers in groups to market user data anonymously. So your iPhone uses that identifier to keep your personal data anonymous. To further secure your identifier from being associated to you, you grouped with a minimum of 5000 other users identifiers that have similar interest, trends and behavior as you do. That sample is the data that is marketed. You can also goto settings > privacy > advertising > reset advertising identifier to reset it.

5. They will send all the personal user data they have collected and stored on you. Takes a few days but just goto iCloud.com > Account and scroll to the bottom to request a copy.

With a good deal of confidence we can trust they are doing what they say they are doing because it doesn't make sense/is near impossible not too for a variety of reasons....

1. Too many people to keep a secret. Studies (not the one I'm referring to but here is a study from Oxford University) have shown that under fear of court martial and treason which is obviously more severe than any Apple employee would need to deal with a conspiracy can be maintained for ~5 years by no more than 2500 individuals (coconspirators) . DaVinci Code logic says a secret is safe for 100 years with ~120 individuals instructed to maintain secrecy lol. Eventually someone will talk tho even if its on their death bed. Regardless 5 years puts Apple out of business in 6-7 due to PR nightmares. And a 120 people isn't enough for the volume of work required. I didn't even bother to mention the people in other departments that would need to interact with them like IT guys, finance people, maintenance, etc.

2. Apple secretly selling personal user data outside of their privacy statement guidelines would be like them handing out suit cases stuffed with cash. Even the self righteous could sell that information to news agencies for hundreds of thousands of dollars and be a hero. The more selfish could ransom the data back to Apple for god knows how much.

3. Apple is publicly traded with very high revenue income, too high of revenue. The higher a businesses revenue means the more each department is bringing in. However if you have 2 departments and one makes 99% of the companies revenue then the other department won't be viable unless its a necessity to support the revenue generating department like a warranty department, or shipping department. That said the amount of revenue the user privacy data selling department would need to produce to be viable in Apples business structure would be too high to conceal from the auditors (independent contractors) required for publicly traded business. When you generate that much revenue you also need to deal with teams of IRS agents that are using magnifying glasses to find the revenue you are hiding.

I say all that, but I do not consider Apple saints, they are a business and like all businesses their goal is to move money from your bank to theirs, plain and simple. Apples commitment to security and privacy isn't to help us, its to help us feel better and have less concerns buying their products. Everything they do from creating new manufacturing and recycling techniques to using green energy sources to donating to educational and other charities are implemented to help them with tax breaks, less material cost, public appearance, educational charities to make younger developers, etc. If they do something that legitimately helps you at no/little cost it's because of a coincidence.

TL; DR: When it comes to security and privacy the customer and Apples goals are currently aligned with each other as reasonably as both parties are willing to compromise. This might not always be the case but it is right now.
 
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Your concern is understandable but unfounded. Security experts have come up empty handed if they stick to the facts.

Your terminology is using some assumptions and/or lack of understanding.

FaceID is the authentication process used decrypt sensitive data including unlocking the iPhone.

TrueDepth camera is depth mapping hardware that is used by FaceID. There are 3 main parts, an infrared camera, infrared flood illuminator and infrared dot projector.

The data FaceID stores is a mathematical representation of your face that is unique to you but can't be identified as you without comparing to another representation collected the same way. That is stored locally on the secure enclave outside of the storage and its not accessible.

When FaceID is used the infrared camera and flood illuminator (if required) look for the "new face" to be looking at the device. Once that is seen the dot projector gathers information and compares to the store data. Nothing is recorded except whether the new face was a match. If not it will log that failures attempt and try again. After 5 times it defaults to the password.

3rd party apps dont have access to FaceID they just have access to asking iOS to use it. iOS will let the app know if it was a pass or fail.

Parts of the TrueDepth camera are used in the iOS for example Animoji's use the dot projector while attention awareness features use the infrared camera and flood illuminator (if required).

The actual front camera that captures actual images isn't used in any of the above processes. It can actually be carefully covered to see FaceID will still work.

Apple gets it coming and going don't they? They are highly criticized due to the hoops government agencies have to jump through to get the little bit of data they keep on users just to be criticized they are sharing it with everyone.

This is a moot point on this specific topic. FaceID is stored in Apples Secure Enclave which never (can't) leave the device. If it puts some peoples mind at easy, the Secure Enclave is its own kernel and is essentially work around iOS so it can't be directly interacted with from any OS included iOS. Its as de-appled as it can get and still be inside the iPhone sold that way directly from Apple.

Tracking is clearly a concern for many which is understandable however the fundamental flaw with that logic is the concern is based off a smartphone telling you its recording you location and showing you precisely on a map. Basically the data is presented in a user friendly manor making it look 'easy'. However any cell phone that is turned on (many don't even need a sim in them) and is in range of a cellular tower can be tracked within a 30 meter diameter sometimes less. Typically a cellular provider rents space on a cell tower, them knowing amount of users, specific users, type of device, range and location from tower, etc etc is basic data they need to optimize equipment to minimize expense.

However is this really an issue? The people I know that are truly concerned with privacy at these levels of paranoia will inconvenience themselves and not use devices they don't trust. An employee of a subcontractor I use for work has gone as far as carrying a dumb phone and digital camera (network based cameras record location, time and date in metadata). It's tough for me to understand why people continue to use the device they feel is threatening their privacy and security.....it's almost baffling.

De-appling an iPhone is also robbing Peter to pay Paul to some extent. There are some good reasons to have a company specifically like Apple managing your data.

1. They have well defined an published privacy statements on how user data is collect, used, sold and shared.

2. Apple is essentially a single entity with the money and personnel with the technical abilities to securely store and maintain your data. While their servers are referenced as "unhackable" (which we know isn't true) it's safe to say they are infinitely better than many alternatives. Point being not only are iCloud services convenient but they offer better security and thus better privacy then maintaining your own data at home. Also being automated it never lets its guard down like a people would enviably do.

3. Everything that goes to and/or through Apple is encrypted. Using methods that utilize Apples services are typically more secure and private than alternatives. iMessage vs SMS for example, you might as well just use a plane with an advertising banner trailing behind it to send a message via SMS.

4. They use advertising identifier numbers in groups to market user data anonymously. So your iPhone uses that identifier to keep your personal data anonymous. To further secure your identifier from being associated to you, you grouped with a minimum of 5000 other users identifiers that have similar interest, trends and behavior as you do. That sample is the data that is marketed. You can also goto settings > privacy > advertising > reset advertising identifier to reset it.

5. They will send all the personal user data they have collected and stored on you. Takes a few days but just goto iCloud.com > Account and scroll to the bottom to request a copy.

With a good deal of confidence we can trust they are doing what they say they are doing because it doesn't make sense/is near impossible not too for a variety of reasons....

1. Too many people to keep a secret. Studies (not the one I'm referring to but here is a study from Oxford University) have shown that under fear of court martial and treason which is obviously more severe than any Apple employee would need to deal with a conspiracy can be maintained for ~5 years by no more than 2500 individuals (coconspirators) . DaVinci Code logic says a secret is safe for 100 years with ~120 individuals instructed to maintain secrecy lol. Eventually someone will talk tho even if its on their death bed. Regardless 5 years puts Apple out of business in 6-7 due to PR nightmares. And a 120 people isn't enough for the volume of work required. I didn't even bother to mention the people in other departments that would need to interact with them like IT guys, finance people, maintenance, etc.

2. Apple secretly selling personal user data outside of their privacy statement guidelines would be like them handing out suit cases stuffed with cash. Even the self righteous could sell that information to news agencies for hundreds of thousands of dollars and be a hero. The more selfish could ransom the data back to Apple for god knows how much.

3. Apple is publicly traded with very high revenue income, too high of revenue. The higher a businesses revenue means the more each department is bringing in. However if you have 2 departments and one makes 99% of the companies revenue then the other department won't be viable unless its a necessity to support the revenue generating department like a warranty department, or shipping department. That said the amount of revenue the user privacy data selling department would need to produce to be viable in Apples business structure would be too high to conceal from the auditors (independent contractors) required for publicly traded business. When you generate that much revenue you also need to deal with teams of IRS agents that are using magnifying glasses to find the revenue you are hiding.

I say all that, but I do not consider Apple saints, they are a business and like all businesses their goal is to move money from your bank to theirs, plain and simple. Apples commitment to security and privacy isn't to help us, its to help us feel better and have less concerns buying their products. Everything they do from creating new manufacturing and recycling techniques to using green energy sources to donating to educational and other charities are implemented to help them with tax breaks, less material cost, public appearance, educational charities to make younger developers, etc. If they do something that legitimately helps you at no/little cost it's because of a coincidence.

TL; DR: When it comes to security and privacy the customer and Apples goals are currently aligned with each other as reasonably as both parties are willing to compromise. This might not always be the case but it is right now.

Can I just say, these got to be the best posts ever seen in the last few months. Nailed every point to the ground.
 
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