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surjavarman said:
2) Power? Well would we really notice a big difference between the two with their latest processors? I don't think so.
There's actually a 20-25% difference between the base 13" MBP's i5 and the processors in the Air in many real world applications. Do you know what 20% means on a 30 minute job? Compounded a couple times throughout the day, 2-3 days per week, 52 weeks per year? Thanks to a very aggressive conditional overclock, the ULV processors in the Air have a knack for reaching beyond their practical ability on a 20 second synthetic benchmark--but they won't be able to sustain that through the extended number crunching typical of a large compile, video encoding, or anything of that sort. Preliminary "real world" benches have already begun to show this.

surjavarman said:
RAM? I doubt anyway would need more than 4gigs of ram.
...
And how many sane people actually run virtual machines.
And this is how I know that you're clueless. Isn't the Macbook Pro supposedly marketed towards professionals?

Virtualization has literally transformed the IT and software development communities, especially for those of us who do cross-platform development. Being able to simultaneously test code on OS X, Linux, and Windows is an absolutely fantastic boost to productivity. It's also extraordinarily useful for system administrators and security professionals; it's just about one of the easiest and most effective forms of sandboxing available. I won't even mention the armies of people who benefit from the ability to use Windows software outside the Windows environment. I know plenty of accountants, statisticians and analysts who do just that. If virtual machines were niche products intended for goofy fringe users, then how might you explain the rapid growth of companies such as VMWare and Parallels?

surjavarman said:
3) Ethernet port? Everyone is using wifi anyway nowadays and btw its easily fixable anyway.
Wifi meets with varying levels of derision in the IT world, because it's unreliable, three-legged-dog slow, and riddled with security issues. Contrary to what you may believe, there's a world outside of Youtube--such as the world that creates the software and technology that you take for granted every day. I'd have to take a holiday if I wanted to upload two gigabytes of data to a client site over a damned wireless connection.

Now, Apple may ultimately agree with you on one point: the 13" MBP has run the course (and perhaps even the 15" and 17" models with it, at least as we've come to know them). But not because any of your reasoning is correct (in fact, it's almost universally wrong), but because they've demonstrated less and less concern for the developer community with each product launch, and a relatively portable machine with a few essential professional-class features* wouldn't fit into their apparent grand vision of a consumer-oriented iToys utopia.

*I'd buy the 15" model without reservation if I had any intention of using a laptop as my primary machine. But since that day will be long in coming, I like the size and weight of the 13" form factor, I'm unwilling (or even unable) to sacrifice power and certain features on the road, and I don't see the sense in spending $2000 on a computer that will spend most of its time idle in a closet, the 13" MBP with a few choice upgrades strikes an ideal compromise.
 
Despite the speed difference, the new MBA's actually come very close, benchmark wise, to the i5 13 inch MBP's, just saying
 
Despite the speed difference, the new MBA's actually come very close, benchmark wise, to the i5 13 inch MBP's, just saying


You DID note the following excellent comment from akhbhaat?


There's actually a 20-25% difference between the base 13" MBP's i5 and the processors in the Air in many real world applications. Do you know what 20% means on a 30 minute job? Compounded a couple times throughout the day, 2-3 days per week, 52 weeks per year? Thanks to a very aggressive conditional overclock, the ULV processors in the Air have a knack for reaching beyond their practical ability on a 20 second synthetic benchmark--but they won't be able to sustain that through the extended number crunching typical of a large compile, video encoding, or anything of that sort. Preliminary "real world" benches have already begun to show this.

(Emphasis added.)
 
Virtualization has literally transformed the IT and software development communities, especially for those of us who do cross-platform development.
Exactly. I'm looking at buying my first Mac for my own use since 1986 (Mac 512). As a Windows software developer (with some Linux compiling thrown in), the Intel-based macs with VM suport are the first machines from Apple I've looked at since college.

As a result, 8 GB is a strong draw ( I noticed that 16GB is possible, but that sounds too pricey to me). After spending an hour at the Apple store yesterday to play with the Pro and the Air, there's no way I will lock myself into the you-get-what-you-get Air if the Pro is available for me to keep the machine viable for (>4) years.

I suspect the 13" Pro will go away next year, so I will be buying this year. My needs aren't representative of the average Apple consumer, so I will not be in the least bit surprised if Apple keeps catering to the "have money, want style" market that it's done so well with over the decades.
 
surjavarman said:
But lets be honest here. Unless you need hdd space, then there is no need to get a MBP. Lets see.

1) Optidrive? Who is using a CD in 2011 anyway? And the average Joe isn't going to remove it to replace it with an optibay.
2) Power? Well would we really notice a big difference between the two with their latest processors? I don't think so.
3) Ethernet port? Everyone is using wifi anyway nowadays and btw its easily fixable anyway.
4) Price? A MBP equiped with a 128gb SSD from apple is a whopping $1449! Compare that with the $1299 MBA13 128gb.
5) RAM? I doubt anyway would need more than 4gigs of ram. I have a MBP and I am never going to upgrade the MBP to 8gb. Its just not necessary.

Combine that with the pros of the MBA (higher res display, lighter) and you have to be a complete moron to still go for the MBP.

I happen to fall in the category thats need capacity. I have a HDD+SSD with combined capacity of over 1TB and I haven't found a way to get rid of this addiction for capacity but I know that the MBA is the future. So I do want to have a solution for in the future.

It's very annoying when users argue the "uselessness" of specific ports or physical media inputs (amongst other things) when they personally do not use them.

If you don't need, say, and ethernet port or an internal optical drive, then look into buying a computer that has sacrificed those features in order to improve other features such as form factor or portability. Just don't say that nobody uses the things that you don't use. It's just ignorant.
 
It's very annoying when users argue the "uselessness" of specific ports or physical media inputs (amongst other things) when they personally do not use them.

If you don't need, say, and ethernet port or an internal optical drive, then look into buying a computer that has sacrificed those features in order to improve other features such as form factor or portability. Just don't say that nobody uses the things that you don't use. It's just ignorant.

+1

Best internet connection = wired. Wireless is only handy for places where you can't connect using the ethernet port like in the bedroom or in public places.

And how the hell are you going to install software without a DVD drive. More than 90% of the software I have installed isn't in the App Store, but are on DVD's I have. So the optical drive is far from useless.
 
And how the hell are you going to install software without a DVD drive. More than 90% of the software I have installed isn't in the App Store, but are on DVD's I have. So the optical drive is far from useless.

I mean, there are always externals (pretty much external everything; storage, media input, etc) but what I am saying is that if a consumer that is purchasing a computer does not want an internal optical drive in a unit, then perhaps look into one that does not have such a feature, and maybe benefits from such absence in reference to their particular preferences and usage (larger battery life, lighter weight, smaller form factor, etc).
 
You guys made some strong points but most of my points still stand though especially if I would include the MBP15 in a three-way comparison. Lets look again

1) Optibay. Seriously this stands as it is. The majority is not using CD's anymore in 2011 and Lion confirms this. Dropbox, cloud storage, USB drives have replaced it. Time to move on for those who are still using it. Its dead. Over.

2) Power. Ok some say you'll get a 20% improvement for tasks like encoding and stuff. So I am wondering how many of the users are actually into stuff where raw CPU matters like encoding on FREQUENT basis. Probably only the power users. And then I am wondering would they rather get a MBP13 or a MBP15 in such a case.

3) Ethernet port. I agree that wired is still better than wireless in terms of speed and security. But in real life situations? How often would you actually get the opportunity to use a wired cable? I could only think of your home. All other cases either wifi is being offered to you with no other alternative or you'd be using 3G hotspot which still uses wifi. Universities, hotels, conventions, work, you name it. You have to think how practical is it and not about which one is technically superior to the other.

I AM SORRY BUT POINT 1 AND 3 STILL STANDS!

4) Price. Assuming a 256gb aftermarket SATA3 ssd is $450. The MBP13 would still be slightly more expensive but it has the faster SSD of the two. I would still say the 256gb MBA is a better deal. At 128gb the MBA13 is definitely the better bang for buck.

5) RAM. Ok here the MBP13 would win over the MBA13 if you are into virtual machines. But again would such a user rather get a MBP13 or a MBP15? And someone made an interesting point. I would personally bootcamp into windows instead of using emulators or virtual machines. Trying gaming is a disaster for anything but bootcamp. But ok.. the MBP13 is cheaper, lighter and more portable than the MBP15 and some could make a compromise based on that.

So...

1) and 3) are for niche users.
2) and 5) are for power users and developers. And the question is does 8gb of RAM and 20% extra performance really matter and wouldn't power users rather get a desktop or a MBP15 instead?

And 4).. a MBP13 with a 256gb SSD ($450) and 8gb ram ($200) is $1850. While the air is $1599. Seriously if I would be spending $1850... I'd rather get the base model MBP15 with no upgrades.
 
You guys made some strong points but most of my points still stand though especially if I would include the MBP15 in a three-way comparison. Lets look again

Let's not look again, as your post was ridiculous the first time. The "points" you are mentioning don't have much of one leg to stand on as they are simply opinions and biased preferences.
 
3) Ethernet port. I agree that wired is still better than wireless in terms of speed and security. But in real life situations?
Just to counter-point, how 'bout Corporate America? I can take my MB to work... but getting it on the corporate wireless network involves talking to IT, getting it "blessed", and installing God-only-knows what spyware^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hsoftware from the IT department before I can use it. If they even allow it.
5) RAM. Ok here the MBP13 would win over the MBA13 if you are into virtual machines. But again would such a user rather get a MBP13 or a MBP15? And someone made an interesting point. I would personally bootcamp into windows instead of using emulators or virtual machines.
VMs aren't that slow for things that aren't gaming. Even compiling isn't too bad (heavy memory and disk usage, but the graphics system is pretty lightly used). And as far as 13" vs. 15", I'd do 15" if I were a serious gamer (am not, gave that up years ago)... but I don't want to haul a 15" around between my home, work, and various meetings. It's just-too-big.

Seriously, I know I'm a niche. Note that I haven't even mentioned FireWire as being a big bonus (for Windows driver debugging, you really need FW or a standard serial port).

Computers "fit" a much larger variety of users than other more specialized devices ( like the IPad ). As Apple moves to remove the various hardware options, their user base becomes a lot less varied, and drive off a fair number of us "fringe" users to other systems that give us options.
 
Let's not look again, as your post was ridiculous the first time. The "points" you are mentioning don't have much of one leg to stand on as they are simply opinions and biased preferences.

I agree completely.

The Air requires an enormous price premium relative to the MBP to sacrifice performance, color accuracy, expandability, and so on.

I note you didn't bother addressing the superior color accuracy and gamut of the Pro, by the way.
 
And how many sane people actually run virtual machines.

Professionally, I do. My customers use VPN solutions that require IE to be installed, so I use Virtualbox and Windows XP to get into the systems I need to support.

As for the wifi thing, many companies do not like or trust wifi networks and will not install them. Then there's the speed advantage of doing Time Machine backups over a gigabit ethernet LAN v a wifi network. It is about 3-4x quicker for me to backup this way at home, even with both my MBP and TC being capable of 450Mbps wifi.

As for the optical drive, I've used mine pretty much every day since I got my MBP and much prefer having everything combined than having to carry separate devices.

Just my tuppence worth.
 
I agree completely.

The Air requires an enormous price premium relative to the MBP to sacrifice performance, color accuracy, expandability, and so on.

I note you didn't bother addressing the superior color accuracy and gamut of the Pro, by the way.

Do you have a source of that. Like I said in my first post we compared both screens and we couldn't really see a huge difference between the two except for a few more lines of text in chrome.

I would address color accuracy. I rate it higher than the resolution but I don't believe in it because I have seen both screens side to side with my own eyes. And to add more credibility I actually own an IPS screen too (actually I own 2 IPS displays if I count the iphone4 too).

Look I am a MBP13 2011 owner. And if I didn't need the hdd space I would definitely go for the MBA. If only for the display alone. But in my opinion its also more portable and it's a better bang for buck if you actually look at the prices.

Btw aren't corporates usually giving out free thinkpads and dells to use instead?
 
Sort of reaching the flogging a dead horse stage, in summary, you'd be content with a MBA over your MBP, but can't because its not capable enough (not enough storage). Then a pile of other people also don't mind the air for what it is, but simply can't get over the many shortcomings (colour, speed, ram, disk space, disk speed, optibay option, digital audio, gigabit ethernet, optical drive, upgradability etc) and thus wouldn't touch one. The number of people supporting the original argument is very slim, which is probably why the MBP, is still extremely popular.
 
I got the 13" MBP because I wanted more portable.... a 15" MBP is heavier and more to lug around. It was not a money issue at all!!! For me the 13" was perfect. But I also wanted an optical drive... (I realize I might be the only one here) but I have a TON of DVD's and I can bring them with me to sea to watch (I'm in the Navy). Without an optical drive, I wouldn't even be able to rip my DVDs to bring them on an external drive with me (never mind the fact that the external drive would take more power from the laptop to run! And downloading movies is just time consuming and a PITA. I have also been taking my huge CD collection and ripping them to my iTunes library. Without an optical drive, how could I do that? I'd have to buy them all over again in iTunes??

And I use my MBP for graphics too! I actually plug into an external monitor for the larger stuff but I can also do photo editing on the go with CS5 and carry it in my camera bag. 15" MBP would be too heavy and MBA would just not suffice for my uses. I am planning on upgrading to 8 GB RAM soon though...

Other reason I don't like the MBA is that it feels way too fragile!!


I really HOPE the 13" MBP will not be discontinued!! It's also the perfect Starbucks companion ;)
 
Do you have a source of that. Like I said in my first post we compared both screens and we couldn't really see a huge difference between the two except for a few more lines of text in chrome.

I would address color accuracy. I rate it higher than the resolution but I don't believe in it because I have seen both screens side to side with my own eyes. And to add more credibility I actually own an IPS screen too (actually I own 2 IPS displays if I count the iphone4 too).

Disbelieve away . . . :rolleyes:

Check the Anandtech tests in these links:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1198760/

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1198428/

Oh, and in the real world, lots of people use the optical drive. Just because you don't doesn't mean many other people don't.
 
Seems like people are really short sighted when it comes to CPU power. Maybe it is because they upgrade every 2 years anyways, but I like to get value out of computers and not spend too much time and money buying and reselling to strangers on craigslist at a loss. If I want a computer to last me 4 years, I think about how much CPU power is necessary now, and how much CPU power might be necessary in 4 years after os x 10.11.4.2.1 Old Cougar gets released. Sure, the air is powerful enough for today's requirements, but let's see what happens in a few years when requirements change. I would prefer to have the flexibility to upgrade and increase storage. Maybe in a few years video files are all going to be in 1080p and about 20GB large, that means a 128GB SSD drive will be miniscule. What if new operating systems use voice recognition that requires 8GB of RAM? I see the same thing in iOS, where iphones that were once snappy get a new os upgrade and suddenly they become dogs... Are you going to be happy running Os X 7 on a 2011 air with no way to upgrade if everyone else is on Os x 11?
 
The real reason Apple would drop the 13" MBP is to force people to buy the Air and then to replace it every couple of years when they run out of storage or hit RAM limits. That doesn't work with a MBP--take a look and you see lots of people with older Core 2 Duo MBPs upgrading the RAM and HD and being able to use them productively for years following.
 
I totally agree, I hate the trend. I means we throw out perfectly functional machines that are just too slow and with now way to upgrade...so wasteful. Like throwing away an android 1.3 phone but only more expensive!
 
I totally agree, I hate the trend. I means we throw out perfectly functional machines that are just too slow and with now way to upgrade...so wasteful. Like throwing away an android 1.3 phone but only more expensive!

What machines are following this trend? Unless you mean the consumer market as a whole, in which I would definitely agree. There are definitely warehouses somewhere where there are TONS of unused, unopened devices waiting to be thrown away or recycled.
 
talking about general consumer market

Then yea I agree with you. But that's just how it goes though; food, clothing, electronics... everything sold isn't going to burn through the entire stock and there are going to be leftovers.

I'm sure companies use old machines that aren't sold and reuse the parts (HDs, RAM, etc.); basically, everything in new machines. That's basically what Apple's refurb site is; machines that have been slightly used with new/used internals. No use throwing them away when they're perfectly fine.
 
The 13" MBP is just a MB rebaged as MBP and clad in aluminum.

As far as everyone laughing at you... you're what, 12?
 
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