See I think it comes down to this - if you can touch type = the TouchBar is appalling. If you are a hunt and peck typer the TouchBar is appealing.
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Is Touch Bar worth $300?
- Thread starter woodynorman
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See I think it comes down to this - if you can touch type = the TouchBar is appalling. If you are a hunt and peck typer the TouchBar is appealing.
I am very much a professional user (I'd like to think, at least). Before Mojave, Touch Bar didn't result in any "experience loss" for me — functions keys were pointless and remained pointless, control strip using TB is arguably better. After Mojave Quick Actions, Touch Bar is strictly superior. I can now launch complex scripts instantly from the Touch Bar, which is an incredible productivity boost for me.
It's just a bad solution looking for a problem.
As i think i mentioned above, a far more useful place to put a touchscreen would have been in the keypad. It could be ADDED there without removing things that actually work and are relied upon by end users.
It would make a way better emoji picker / other touchscreen interface, especially given the size of the touchpad on new machines. That's something i'd actually pay extra for.
Gimping my keyboard and removing a bunch of keys i actually use for an extra 500 AUD? The forum rules here won't let me type my response...
If you touch type, Touch Bar does not make any difference. Keys are still there. I don't understand why that upper bar of useless keys should be making a difference for touch typists.
Because they change and therefore I have to look down - I have to revert to hunting and pecking on the touch bar
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I agree I think the bar would be better just above the trackpad
In Europe taxes are shown at point of sale, in US these taxes are added on after. Also in the EU, there are extra warranty protections which are factored into the cost, in the US they don't have such protections. These do affect the price you see when you look on the US/EU websites.
In 2016 when the models came out, there was an increase in the cost. However a lot of people were comparing the cost of the 2015 with the 2016, they should compare the 2012 to the 2016 and discover the cost is the same. The pricing went down with the lifespan of the machine (Which received negligible upgrades, and so the cost of manufacture decreased).
I also swear a lot of people get a 2 year old machine refurbished and compare it to a brand new one.
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If it was above the trackpad then you'd constantly be hitting it. Really bad user design, pretty sure they teach people not to do that on like day one of a design course.
I find it really useful. I recently discovered the support for calculator app, I love it. Usually I would reach for an actual calculator but having the symbols above the number keys is a godsend.
Its the subtle things that make life easier the value prop here.
Touch ID, again, is brilliant as is FCPX support and tabs in safari.
Its the subtle things that make life easier the value prop here.
Touch ID, again, is brilliant as is FCPX support and tabs in safari.
Everytime this comes up someone start telling me about taxes. This is not about taxes. I’ve been to America I know how that works. What you guys don’t appreciate is that every now and then they shuffle the prices in other countries due to currency fluctuations. Invariably they shuffle them upwards and not downwards again when the currency fluctuates the other way. Thus if I buy a machine now to replace my old one - the closet matching spec is about 15% more expensive than my old one was. The spec I want to buy is more bonkers on top of that.
Furthermore the competition specifally Dell cause that is what I have been looking at, have NOT increased their prices over time like this, making the “Apple premium” currently about 57% matching on the spec I want - whereas in the past it was about 15-20%.
And the effect is very noticeable when I go to meetings around Europe. 4 years ago I saw lots of macs at meetings. Now I see less and when I do see them they are old ones not new ones. Apple are pricing themselves out of the market in Europe. If you doubt me check the market share figures and you’ll see Apple market share is lower in Europe than in America.
Edit: so out of curiosity I did a pricing for a. 15” MBP with 32gb ram and 1 Tb drive jsut now for US vs Ireland. Let’s assume I’m buying in New York with sales tax of 8.875% sales tax.
Cost in New York= $3,399 + 8.875% = $3,700
Cost in Ireland = €4,089 = $4,805
So a $1,100 more expensive here even allowing for tax. I can fly Dublin to New York and back for about $350
Dell with equivalent spec is €2600 ($3,047). So the Apple premium is $1,800 ish. Do you consider an Apple machine to be worth tha tmuch more than a Dell with same chip+RAM+disk size? I dont'. Quite literally - I could buy a car with that $1,800
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You are assuming they are useless. I actually use them!
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There's no need to lash out at forum users over your disgruntled opinion on the pricing. People are just trying to explain why, not rationalise why. These things do have reasons, whether you like it or not.
You're still making assumptions and not fully realising the tax. If you take off the 23% VAT it comes to ~€3156 ($3699), so the sale price you're looking at is $3,399 in the US, and $3,699 in Ireland (EU). That's still $200 more, however there are import duties on goods from outside the EU, as well as comprehensive EU warranty laws.
On the face of it you can get it cheaper in the US, but this is because in the US they don't have as much taxation compared to the EU.
Same product is HK$26,788 in Hong Kong, which has effectively no tax (Similar to the US), and the price converts to around $3,410 USD.
It's not Apple pricing themselves out of the market, it's just the horrendous taxation that occurs in the EU compared to other parts of the world. Sadly Apple won't swallow this cost and will pass it onto consumers (Partly because they should do this, as a business, and secondly they have no reason to reduce margins to sell more - they sell plenty).
I'm not getting much use out of the Touchbar, but I have seen a few uses that makes me very interested as a professional user. I don't spend enough of my time in a UNIX shell to remember all the commands I need to use and what options to invoke. The touchbar gave me a quick shortcut to the man page for the command I was running. That was really cool. It's not very hard to invoke a man page myself, but it made me realize that if someone adapted the touchbar well, it could actually be really useful in helping me complete commands that I can't remember much in the same way my developer environments suggest methods I might want to use.
BTW, lighten up.
I'm sorry but the pre-sale price is utterly, utterly irrelevant to me. As a consumer, I don't get to not pay the tax. So if anyone is not fully realising the tax it is you. You also completely ignored my point about the Dell being way waaaaayyy cheaper. Those differences between Apple and Dell were not so stark 4/5 years ago. I'm curious - what is the Dell Apple differential in the US for a 32GB 1TB 15" ?
@Mercurian: you are right. I did some quick calculations and it seems that Apple didn't update the EUR prices fairly. They should be at least 5-10% down. Still, your numbers are a bit off since you forget that tax rates are different (e.g. Ireland has 23% tax rate). Its still weird though, since for example Swiss prices are much closer to the USD one. Its almost like EU is paying a hidden tax. Maybe having to do with costs of implementing additional regulations etc?
As to blind typing and touchbar, sorry, I still don't understand. Function keys — even if you use some arcane software that relies on them in violation of Mac user interface guidelines — are only that, function keys. They are only used situationally to invoke, well, functions. Its not an argument that you can use when talking about blind typing. When do you ever actively use function keys when writing text? And no, their position doesn't change, since they are always in the same position in a specific context. Again, I somehow can still find escape where I expect it and I don't even need to look at the touch bar. I completely agree that touchbar is of no use to a blind typist, but then again, so is the function key bar.
As to blind typing and touchbar, sorry, I still don't understand. Function keys — even if you use some arcane software that relies on them in violation of Mac user interface guidelines — are only that, function keys. They are only used situationally to invoke, well, functions. Its not an argument that you can use when talking about blind typing. When do you ever actively use function keys when writing text? And no, their position doesn't change, since they are always in the same position in a specific context. Again, I somehow can still find escape where I expect it and I don't even need to look at the touch bar. I completely agree that touchbar is of no use to a blind typist, but then again, so is the function key bar.
Hmm well Apple currently owes the government here €13billion so maybe they should just give everyone new laptops instead ??
People make a big deal about the regulations/warranties etc. But then on the flip side - Apple regularly extend warranties on things like staingate , the 2016/2017 keyboard, and outside of those problems are known for reliability. So how much does an extra year of warranty cover actually cost them ? Not much I expect. The 6 year thing is also a bit different and tricky to make use of as a customer - you gotta fight with the retailer (not manufacturer - although often Apple is both). I dont' know anyone who actually did it.I use them in Word sometimes. I made a few of my own shortcuts mapped to function keys. I also would not like to be without a physical ever present escape key which I use quite a bit in different programs.
Funnily enough I spoke to a coder recently with a TouchBar machine and his complaints were more about doing things accidentally. i.e. he accidentally sent emails that were not finished etc due to the touchbar. He basically disabled it as much as possible and ignores it.
But I guess it comes down to the title of the thread - is it worth $300? Its not something I'm willing to pay for, so when I do a MBP vs Dell comparison in my head the TB is a negative against the MBP. I think it should be an optional upgrade really, instead of being forced on folks.
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Same here. Touchbar looks cool but it doesn't necessarily make the user experience better. I got faster at touch & slide for the volume and brightness etc but it requires me to look at it whereas with the function keys I could just press them.
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It is development work where the lack of the physical function keys (and escape key) affects my productivity. For the majority of other tasks, it probably doesn't affect users much - but function keys are heavily used during coding.
As for the blind comment, the function bar provides feedback to a user. If i was blind folded, I can tell the difference between an F1, F5, F8 etc key due to muscle memory and feel. I can't do that with the touch bar (nor accurately even on say an iPhone on screen keyboard vs a Blackberry keyboard of the past).
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Somehow I manage to do development without using function keys. Yes, escape key war weird at first but then again, one gets used to it quickly.
I guess it depends on your tools and how you code, in my experience there is quite a lot of heavy Function key use during development. It's not like I can't use the touch bar, it is that it affects my productivity/speed. I can't feel out an "F" key on the touch bar like I can on a physical one, so I can mis-press if I don't look down. With F keys, I would press them with 99% accuracy.
"I don't want the Touch Bar" has become the latest cool thing to say on the internet
That's a fact. I find the Touch Bar very useful for writing. It has memorized the terms I frequently use and suggests others, saving me time and effort. I also use it to quickly raise and lower the sound volume and the screen lighting. It's a considerable asset.
Nah.
I'm saying turn the glass trackpad itself into a massive secondary display...
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I guarantee that if you can actually type, looking and pecking at words on the touch-bar is a lot slower than actually typing them.
Why? Because by the time you read the words, pick one, move your hand to select it... i already typed it from my hands positioned on the home row without looking - whilst i'm reading another screen, or whatever.
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The apple keyboards (like the 2015 i am typing this one) used to be great. An external keyboard is additional room on my desk which already has two other machines with 2 other external keyboards on it. Ditto for external monitors - i already have two of those on my desk as well. Why would I want ANOTHER keyboard on my desk, when there's already one included that works just fine in the machine? They're pretty identical to the old external mac keyboard anyway.
I also frequently use this machine to do work while not at my desk. Being familiar with the keyboard makes me work faster. Using it more frequently keeps me more familiar with it.
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