form for this? not sure what you mean, but I use my AirPods Max all the time and don't think its too heavy, so maybe there is hope for me with the APV
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Is weight going to be the VP's downfall?
- Thread starter senttoschool
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
form for this? not sure what you mean, but I use my AirPods Max all the time and don't think its too heavy, so maybe there is hope for me with the APV
except the dual loop is already included. no upcharge. but you know some MR readers...
Since the AVP is v1 pf a new tech, you are measuring its success/failure improperly. v1 Mac, for instance, had critical fail in having no mass storage. But its value as v1 of new UI was extraordinary.
You mean if they totally redesigned it leaving out elements they already deemed necessary, then it's not true?
It's always easy to armchair quarter back, but people criticized the AirPods Max as being too heavy and you don't need all that metal materials adding weight... but I had been using Bose headphones for years, and they always broke on me at least once a year. My Max, using the case that came with it which people say isn't as good as Bose's, used the same way, nary a problem in 3 years. Likewise their phones, their computers, have greater than average lifespans because they are made with quality parts that may weigh more. Sorry, plastic is not the answer to everything.
Like wise, you might not like the screen on front, but we dont know what that adds in weight, we do know it adds a lot of function, letting people clearly know when you are fully immersed and when you are not, or when you are taking pictures, and IMHO much more attractive than the stupid lights and what not of competitors. Everyone says how ugly headsets are in general, I think the APV might be the best looking of all. and its partially because of that screen you hate so much.
So yeah, it is true, that with the design elements that Apple wanted to include, and the strength, this represents the lightest they felt they could release with this generation. physics matters.
mmm define 'critical fail' in the case of v1 Mac (aka 128 Mac). was it a pain in the butt to not have mass storage? definitely. Did I get a Mac HD 20 for my 512 k Mac. Certainly. But that didn't mean I could not use my 128 (which I did and loved, can still hear the sound of the disks whirring lol). Critical to me means unusable. I get your point though, and agree probably applies to V1 APV too. That semi-usable as long as you are patient and overlook some things (like weight) look into the future.
We will find out soon enough. I predict the reviews will be something like:
Week 1 - I love it, use it daily, and it is fantastic.
Week 2 - It's ok; there's not much I can do with it but watch some things.
Week 3 - It's still okay, but [enter reasons for not loving it anymore].
.....
Week 4 - Thinking of returning it, selling it or only use it a couple of times a week.
Week 1 - I love it, use it daily, and it is fantastic.
Week 2 - It's ok; there's not much I can do with it but watch some things.
Week 3 - It's still okay, but [enter reasons for not loving it anymore].
.....
Week 4 - Thinking of returning it, selling it or only use it a couple of times a week.
In response to your query, I define 'critical fail' in the case of v1 128k Mac as the lack of mass storage. One could only use that Mac by constantly changing diskettes: boot with disk A, eject A and insert disk B for MacWrite, etc. As such the 128k turned out to be very much a v1 learning device that could not survive as it was long term. But that did not mean it was not an appropriate v1 to purchase.
Last edited:
No I get that. I wrote my PhD thesis on the 128k Mac. Flopped many a disk. Had a system for it to minimize time even. But as I said, I wrote my thesis that way, 300+ pages with graphs etc. I consider that more than a learning device, albeit a not optimal device
. I am just being critical over your use of the word 'critical.' As I said, critical to me means 'stop it from being usable.' It was useable.
🙂
Sounds like my Apple Watch experiences…
Still hoping the Ultra 2 won't end up going back.
I suppose it depends on what your Apple Watch expectations are... if you haven't liked it before not sure what the Ultra brings to the table in addition, with the exception of longer battery life and more rugged construction, and weight. like more weight? I have never heard anyone say "I like my Apple Watch but it just doesnt weight enough." (yes I am being silly on purpose sorry)
I say that having owned (and kept) an Apple Watch since the original. The first one was pokey, but I still found things to like. I imagine my experience with the APV will be the same. Problems will be found (for me), but still things to like (for me).
And that'a how reviews will go, I think its already known its not going to be the device for everyone, so to some extent its going to be a matter of expectations.
We fully agree that the 128k was useable; especially by young academically inclined individuals like you and me at the time. But it was not IMO long term really usable by the masses yet; IBM memory typewriters remained superior for most usages. Full long term usability happened IMO with the Mac Plus and its SCSI port. The (black art) of SCSI mass storage changed everything forever.No I get that. I wrote my PhD thesis on the 128k Mac. Flopped many a disk. Had a system for it to minimize time even. But as I said, I wrote my thesis that way, 300+ pages with graphs etc. I consider that more than a learning device, albeit a not optimal device
FYI I liked my earlier version Apple Watches but they just did not weigh enough. Seriously, before AW I wore a largish Seiko Dive Watch for decades, and when the AW Ultra came out it was perfect for me. Plus I am a 6' male so the Seiko and the AW Ultra both feel appropriate.
You mean, like how the iPhones have been getting lighter with each generation?
I think we can agree we rather have mass storage than not.
and to be honest, I never worry about the masses, call me selfish I worry about me. I continue to limit my use of the word critical to when it's critical lol. we are in what I like to call, 'violent agreement.'Let me fix that for you:
...like how the iPhones have been getting more performance per gram of weight with each generation.
There are gonna be 3rd party straps that work better than Apple's, if you don't mind them looking ugly. They'll carry the weight better.
Lighter and thinner, heavier and thicker, thicker and heavier, and now lighter and thinner again.
I have no criticism of the AirPods Max, they’re not even that heavy compared to other high-end headphones. The difference is how the weight is distributed. The weight will be all in the front with the Vision Pro which will make it uncomfortable as anyone who has used VR headsets knows.
The screen in front is a gimmick and obviously adds some noticeable weight to it. Sure, you can say Apple wanted to include it which just shows they’re not prioritizing comfort. I mean it couldn’t be anymore obvious they’ve given little thought to comfort with the single strap they’ve been showcasing and having people use. Comfort is EVERYTHING with VR or people simply stop using it.
As has been pointed out, not all weight is created equal. The further from your face, the bigger the problem. Anyone who has used VR headsets knows this.
In your opinion the screen on front is a gimmick. That doesn't mean Apple didn't prioritize comfort. It means they struck a balance they were comfortable with (pun intended). Prioritizing doesn't mean the ONLY consideration.
I think you are wrong to think apple gave comfort little thought. They are also providing an over the top strap for those that find that better. How is that giving it little thought?
That was a rhetorical question, we are going in circles now. Time will tell, not you or me.
It’s clear they are struggling with reducing the weight without cutting features or battery life. It’s not a given that there will be a different path for the Vision Pro.
Comparing to other headsets isn't helpful. Each of them have different band designs. Quest has a very aggressive occipital support bracket along with a big bracket for the forehead.
Apple clearly prioritized for aesthetics. This is why we're hearing about the optional head strap making a big difference.
Apple clearly prioritized for aesthetics. This is why we're hearing about the optional head strap making a big difference.
It also depends on how the weight in distributed and with Vision Pro you you’ve got a dense piece of metal and glass sat on the end of a cushion on your face.
The eye display may not be important to you, but I think it serves a critical function for how Apple wants people to use the VP. Without eye contact (even if virtual), communication is hampered because a lot of information is expressed in the eyes, and people don’t want hampered communication—these aren’t things that will change over time. And Apple doesn’t want people to have to take the headset off every time they want to talk to someone because that is simply inconvenient.
So I don’t think they could do away with the front display completely, but maybe they could replace the glass with a lighter material like maybe those matte screens on some monitors. But I don’t see this as likely because matte displays don’t look as sharp and premium as glass, which Apple cares about. The other thing they could do is design the front of the VP to easily flip up exposing the eyes. Not sure Apple would go for this either though. It might compromise other aspects of the headset.
Not sure how much difference aluminum makes. I feel like not as much as glass. But Apple probably also prefers aluminum due to looking/feeling more premium, and because I believe it has more structural integrity than lighter plastic. So I don‘t see them getting rid of that either. But maybe they could perforate it or something to reduce weight.
As others have noted, weight distribution is equally important for comfort. It may be possible to move some of the front components to the back of the head strap.
Last edited:
The over the top strap is clearly more of an afterthought with how simple it is. Apple suddenly realizing oh crap, no one can wear this thing more than 30 minutes with the single strap.
Don‘t get me wrong, I want this to be a successful product. I just wish Apple put as much thought and ingenuity into the comfort as they did into the components.
But then again maybe they’ve realized all along that no matter what they do it’s just not going to be a comfortable product with all of the tech they put into it. They‘ve probably conceded that it will primarily be enthusiasts anyway using the product who will put up with the pain. They can worry about making a lighter, more comfortable version once moms and grandmas decide they want one.
Weight will be the downfall of every Apple product that is mobility - related -- if the current ‘Pro = Beefy’ design language is not reversed. This design philosophy prioritizes performance over portability and is a mistake.
You can see the impact of this philosophy starting with devices that succeeded iPhone X: Pro devices are bigger and heavier than previous pro devices -- and they keep getting bigger and heavier. This applies to iPhone Pro, iPad Pro, and MacBook Pro .. and as this thread suggests the dynamic is evident in Vision Pro.
I get the reason — Apple packs a lot of power into tiny devices and that requires Herculean feats of engineering to handle physical and thermal implications. This tension presents a tradeoff: increase size or degrade performance.
This tension has always been there, but with the exit of Jony Ive, I believe Apple has yielded to the pressure to release Engineers from Design-and-usability-imposed constraints instead of using design to challenge Apple engineering to do what others can’t (as had historically been emblematic of the Apple Way).
I hope this design philosophy is reversed before Apple loses its edge and reputation for producing magical devices that are portable, powerful and comfortable.
You can see the impact of this philosophy starting with devices that succeeded iPhone X: Pro devices are bigger and heavier than previous pro devices -- and they keep getting bigger and heavier. This applies to iPhone Pro, iPad Pro, and MacBook Pro .. and as this thread suggests the dynamic is evident in Vision Pro.
I get the reason — Apple packs a lot of power into tiny devices and that requires Herculean feats of engineering to handle physical and thermal implications. This tension presents a tradeoff: increase size or degrade performance.
This tension has always been there, but with the exit of Jony Ive, I believe Apple has yielded to the pressure to release Engineers from Design-and-usability-imposed constraints instead of using design to challenge Apple engineering to do what others can’t (as had historically been emblematic of the Apple Way).
I hope this design philosophy is reversed before Apple loses its edge and reputation for producing magical devices that are portable, powerful and comfortable.
Last edited: