Isn't it time for a hardware refresh?

[ftaok]

snip

DVR capability - requires a built-in tuner as well

I've been thinking about this one. For the aTV to serve as a DVR, it doesn't necessarily need to have a tuner. In fact, having a tuner will basically be a waste for satellite users and digital cable users (assuming that the aTV wouldn't have CableCard).

The argument can be made that all the aTV would need to be a capable DVR would be component inputs, an IR blaster, and great software. The users own cable/sat box would serve as the tuner. The aTV software could handle the scheduling duties and send out a signal via the IR blaster to activate the cable/sat box.

To do all of this, the aTV would need a good analog to digital converter, preferably some sort of h264 encoding chip.

With all this said, I suspect this would be extremely unlikely to ever happen.

ft

 

[tronic72]

Personally, I don't think we are going to see a hardware update any time soon - except for maybe a larger capacity model.

But, as others have said, the harddrive size on the ATV as we know it really is irrelavent.

As it stands, you can't use the ATV as a NAS server - if you ignore streaming and use only syncing, you still need to have a copy of your media on your mac or pc somewhere, as well as the copy that is synced onto the ATV.

I know there is a workaround for this by deleting the media reference out of itunes - but this is a surefire way of accidently deleting your media, if you ask me.

So, basically however big they make the internal HDD of the ATV, you have to match this disk space on your computer/externall HDD setup.

Now the obvious - if the ATV had a major hardware update that kept all current functions, but included a blue-ray drive/burner, twin-TV tuner and PVR software, it would be absolutely frickin awesome. No question.

But, there are two reasons why it is not going to happen:

1. Price - if apple did this (and still expected to make a profit), they would realistically have to price the ATV at >$1000 US dollars.

2. The big corporate picture. However comitted apple is to the ATV, it is not as comitted as it is to itunes.

They are trying to convice consumers to (1) move away from optical-media to digital media (2) convice consumers to PURCHASE their movies, music and TV shows from itunes - not from anyone else, and definately not for free.

Point (1) means no blue ray
Point (2) means no PVR/tv-tuner


Most of the other things on people's wishlists (external USB port access, 1080p output, larger variety of video fomat support, safari etc.)for the ATV should only require software upgrades.

You are right on the money.

The ATV is already too pricey for what it is. Let's face it, although I love my ATV, it's just a conduit for getting stuff from your Mac to your TV. That's it!

Give it 12 months, if the product becomes as successful as the iPod, the high volume will allow apple to continue development. The Apple TV could still be a flop for Apple. It is yet to have the same sort of success as the iPod and iPhone.

my 2c

 

[zedsdead]

Apple needs to do one of two things:

(1) Add a DVD drive, or
(2) Negotiate with the studios to allow direct DVD ripping into iTunes

Most people will never deal with the Handbrake method, and Apple will never create a mass appeal unless people can easily still watch their DVD's. That means either directly through the Apple TV, or through importing via iTunes (which better involve the new Anamorphic Settings & 5.1 DD).

1080p is not important for making the Apple TV sell on a much larger scale, but it would be a nice addition.

DVR would also help greatly, and would be a nice replacement for my EyeTV.

 

[Tilpots]

I've been thinking about this one. For the aTV to serve as a DVR, it doesn't necessarily need to have a tuner. In fact, having a tuner will basically be a waste for satellite users and digital cable users (assuming that the aTV wouldn't have CableCard).

The argument can be made that all the aTV would need to be a capable DVR would be component inputs, an IR blaster, and great software. The users own cable/sat box would serve as the tuner. The aTV software could handle the scheduling duties and send out a signal via the IR blaster to activate the cable/sat box.



ft

I disagree. If the TV had a tuner, many people wouldn't need or want cable or satellite. Why pay a monthly subscription for the major networks when all you need is a TV tuner? don't forget in the US, the DTV switch is right around the corner and lots of people can get HD free over-the-air. Plus, most cable and satellite boxes already have built in DVRs.

 

[rw3]

I doubt that happens because of (1) cost of the chip and (2) there's no need for it if the gpu is doing the decoding. I suspect the cpu is simply there to run the filesystem.



Still have to address bandwidth/filesize/VQ. A decent 1080p movie is going to be in the 8-10 gb range, unless they come up with better compression algorithms (which would also require beefier gpu for decoding).

Valid on both point. +1 for you sir.

 

[ftaok]

I disagree. If the TV had a tuner, many people wouldn't need or want cable or satellite. Why pay a monthly subscription for the major networks when all you need is a TV tuner? don't forget in the US, the DTV switch is right around the corner and lots of people can get HD free over-the-air. Plus, most cable and satellite boxes already have built in DVRs.

In the USA, most folks get their TV service from either cable or satellite. I think the quoted number for OTA-only viewers is something like 15% or so ... for whatever reason.

The 2/09 transition isn't going to change that number. Maybe a few percentage points up or down. The bottom line is that most people get their TV service through cable/sat and will continue to do so in the future. You can't get cable channels using an antenna and Americans are hooked on cable channels. MNF was one of the top rated shows and crossed many major demographics, but that got moved to ESPN.

For the aTV to be a PVR, it would need to appeal to the masses and that means being useful for cable/sat viewers. For that to happen, there would need to be one of the following:

1. Component inputs to connect to the cable/sat box with IR Blaster to control the channel changing. The argument that most cable/sat boxes are DVRs is true, but if something like this existed, the user could rent a cheaper STB instead.

2. A standard tuner that works with both cable and satellite providers that can record all digital channels (i.e. HBO, TNT, ESPN, etc). Perhaps Tru2Way will help ... but I doubt it.

With all of this said, I don't think this will ever happen. It's too "icky icky" of a solution for Apple to mess around with. It's not elegant at all and probably would be a bear to set up.

A better option would be for Apple to open up the aTV to allow El Gato (or others) to access USB/FW/Ethernet TV tuners that are already available. Let El Gato port a version of EyeTV for the aTV that allows you to hook up the tuner right to the aTV's USB port.

I suspect that this would never happen as well. Honestly, the market for such a device (or option) just isn't there. People are very satisfied leasing the cable/sat DVRs for time shifting for $15/month or so. I don't think Apple would be able to succeed in this field. They'd be better off concentrating on beefing up the selections in the iTS so that HD shows are available sooner and more HD movies. 1280x720/24p is OK for now, but eventually, they need to provide 1080p media just to keep up with the cable company's offerings.

ft

 

[Tilpots]

In the USA, most folks get their TV service from either cable or satellite. I think the quoted number for OTA-only viewers is something like 15% or so ... for whatever reason.

The 2/09 transition isn't going to change that number. Maybe a few percentage points up or down. The bottom line is that most people get their TV service through cable/sat and will continue to do so in the future. You can't get cable channels using an antenna and Americans are hooked on cable channels. MNF was one of the top rated shows and crossed many major demographics, but that got moved to ESPN.

For the aTV to be a PVR, it would need to appeal to the masses and that means being useful for cable/sat viewers. For that to happen, there would need to be one of the following:

1. Component inputs to connect to the cable/sat box with IR Blaster to control the channel changing. The argument that most cable/sat boxes are DVRs is true, but if something like this existed, the user could rent a cheaper STB instead.

2. A standard tuner that works with both cable and satellite providers that can record all digital channels (i.e. HBO, TNT, ESPN, etc). Perhaps Tru2Way will help ... but I doubt it.

With all of this said, I don't think this will ever happen. It's too "icky icky" of a solution for Apple to mess around with. It's not elegant at all and probably would be a bear to set up.

A better option would be for Apple to open up the aTV to allow El Gato (or others) to access USB/FW/Ethernet TV tuners that are already available. Let El Gato port a version of EyeTV for the aTV that allows you to hook up the tuner right to the aTV's USB port.

I suspect that this would never happen as well. Honestly, the market for such a device (or option) just isn't there. People are very satisfied leasing the cable/sat DVRs for time shifting for $15/month or so. I don't think Apple would be able to succeed in this field. They'd be better off concentrating on beefing up the selections in the iTS so that HD shows are available sooner and more HD movies. 1280x720/24p is OK for now, but eventually, they need to provide 1080p media just to keep up with the cable company's offerings.

ft

iTunes is a la carte. Cable and satellite are not. Give the people the option, and they'll ditch cable and satellite in a heartbeat, especially if they can get the big networks for free in HD. Less cable audience means more content for iTunes. I've subscribed to cable for a looooong time and I hate them. If I could get what i needed elsewhere, I would and will. The live TV argument is an unkown currently, but it's an obstacle to overcome as technology progresses.

As you say, elgato's already doing the tv tuner and they seem pretty successful. Why would Apple not do the same. They're not big on licsensing, so why use a middle man.

Who knows, though? I'm not holding my breath til next Tuesday or the one after that, or the one after that... Just want better options for TV and movie delivery and content.

 

[dgalvan123]

I think apple TV is going to run into a problem with 1080p. Sure, they can enable 1080p output, but it's going to be a hassle to stream the 1080p movies from itunes or an external HD to the unit.

That's why I think it's in the apple-TV's interest to add a blu-ray / DVD drive.

One of the biggest advantages to disc media and watching DVD's is that there is no waiting and very little set up. Just pop in the disc and watch. You don't have to worry about video file formats, where to store the media, making sure the computer is not asleep and that it can see the external hard drive where you are storing that media, making sure your wireless router is working, leaving all that electronic equipment running. . . blah blah blah.

Put a disc player in apple TV and you can get around all that. And, for blu-ray, you eliminate the need to stream 10 GB of data over your wireless every time you want to watch a high-def movie.

As for those who say it would be "redundant" to add a blu-ray player to apple tv, since apple is rumored to be putting blu-ray players into the new macs anyway after the upcoming refresh; let me point out that apple TV is, in and of itself, redundant. It's just a way to get your video and music files from your computer to your TV. Set up your computer near your TV, or plug your laptop into your TV via AV cables, and you accomplish the same thing. Apple TV does not technically add any functionality that anyone with a computer, a TV, and AV cables doesn't already have. .. it just makes it more convenient. Apple should be capitalizing on their ability to make things convenient. Adding a blu-ray player would do that.

 

[alfredbot9000]

That said, I appreciate the desire to have this box that can be TV with all the storage than anyone desires. While we're at it why don't we go ahead and cover the other wishes too:
-build in a blue ray drive
-multi-tuner DVR functionality
-cable card so that we can record shows without an antenna
-keyboard, mouse, "real" remote, OS X, Safari, HD ichat camera, etc.
-etc.

And there we have it... the perfect TV. Probably 18"w x 8" high by 15" deep (or maybe in a mini-tower box), a bit noisy for the home theater (going to need a number of fans to cool all that extra hardware down), and priced at just $1499-$1699 with the basic configuration of one 500gb hard drive- maybe as low as $2999 fully decked out with 8Tb etc.

That product would probably make the iphone lines seem quaint.

And then, the gripes would resume that it doesn't make coffee, or that it should have 12Tb of storage instead of 4 or 8, or, for that price, why doesn't it have ______? "I can buy a Mac Pro for that." And so on.

I'm with you in terms of wishing a little $200-$300 box could somehow offer enormous storage (and I would like some of these other wishes fulfilled too). But, the price is going to go up in proportion with how much more TV must become. If we could attach just 4 bare 1Tb drives to the existing one somehow, we add about 4X$200 to the price. Do you think Apple would sell enough 4Tb TVs for at least $1499 to justify its existence?

WOW. Perfect response. You have just expressed how I feel when I see peoples wish lists for Apple devices and then their response to the price when they do add some of the features requested.

 

[TomP80]

That's why I think it's in the apple-TV's interest to add a blu-ray / DVD drive.

Your right - it is in ATV's interest to have a blue-ray drive. It would be cool.

But is it in APPLE'S interest? No. It would shoot itunes in the foot.

And I think apple wants itunes to be successfull a hell of a lot more than it wants the ATV to be successful.

I doubt Apple would be so short sighted as to spend the last 18 months convicing us all to switch from optical-based media to downloadable streaming digital media directly from itunes, and then go and stick a blue ray drive in its steaming i-tunes media box.

Corporate suicide.

 

[soLoredd]

I just want to see an update that enables external drives to be plugged in directly to the tv. That's it. Everything else is perfect the way it is. No DVR, no DVD/Blu-Ray.

You add those latter things and cost is just going to go up. And these things aren't exactly flying off shelves.

 

[Tilpots]

Your right - it is in ATV's interest to have a blue-ray drive. It would be cool.

But is it in APPLE'S interest? No. It would shoot itunes in the foot.

And I think apple wants itunes to be successfull a hell of a lot more than it wants the ATV to be successful.

I doubt Apple would be so short sighted as to spend the last 18 months convicing us all to switch from optical-based media to downloadable streaming digital media directly from itunes, and then go and stick a blue ray drive in its steaming i-tunes media box.

Corporate suicide.

Remember, it's called iTunes. Not iMedia. Not iMovies. Not anything like that. It was created to help sell iPods.

And corporate suicide? Last I heard, Apple makes much more money by selling hardware and software than Britney Spears.

 

[basesloaded190]

I just want to see an update that enables external drives to be plugged in directly to the tv. That's it. Everything else is perfect the way it is. No DVR, no DVD/Blu-Ray.

You add those latter things and cost is just going to go up. And these things aren't exactly flying off shelves.

I am with you on that. if i could store all my movies with out having to stream with only hooking up an external hdd i would buy one right away. right now im waiting for an update but if that's all it is, im sold

 

[TomP80]

Remember, it's called iTunes. Not iMedia. Not iMovies. Not anything like that. It was created to help sell iPods.

Yes.... and your point being????

iTunes has evolved into a complete media solution since its days as loading software for an ipod.

The actual name "itunes" has become such a recognisable brand, that it is, again, not a good corporate decision to rename it now - although something like iMedia is a lot better description of what the software actually does these days.

I'm still not sure what your point is though.

And corporate suicide? Last I heard, Apple makes much more money by selling hardware and software than Britney Spears.

Yes, but I would imagine they would like to continue doing so for many years to come - rather than shoot themselves in the foot now with bad corporate decisions that play into the hands of their competitors.

IBM were in a much stronger position 20 years ago, but they took some poor corporate decisions, and lost their market dominance.

Apple's whole corporate strategy is built around complete market domination. I don't think they are going to change that strategy any time soon.

They can see a future in 10 years time where all the media content you and everyone you know watch or listen to comes streaming from itunes, with a fee to them every time. They want iTunes to be the one and only one-stop-shop for your media.

The're not going to jepordise all of that by encouraging an alternative media delivery system just to please a few ATV tech heads.

 

[Tilpots]

Yes.... and your point being????

iTunes was made for music, not movies and TV.

iTunes has evolved into a complete media solution since its days as loading software for an ipod.

It plays an extremely limited file format set, plays zero physical media, and has a limited title selection, not to mention lack of gaming power, no 1080p support, no live TV... Complete media solution???

The actual name "itunes" has become such a recognisable brand, that it is, again, not a good corporate decision to rename it now - although something like iMedia is a lot better description of what the software actually does these days.

I'm still not sure what your point is though.

OK, one more try. iTunes was made for music, not movies. The iTunes solution isn't working as well for movies and TV so far. There are better options available.

Yes, but I would imagine they would like to continue doing so for many years to come - rather than shoot themselves in the foot now with bad corporate decisions that play into the hands of their competitors.

IBM were in a much stronger position 20 years ago, but they took some poor corporate decisions, and lost their market dominance.

Apple's whole corporate strategy is built around complete market domination. I don't think they are going to change that strategy any time soon.

They can see a future in 10 years time where all the media content you and everyone you know watch or listen to comes streaming from itunes, with a fee to them every time. They want iTunes to be the one and only one-stop-shop for your media.

The're not going to jepordise all of that by encouraging an alternative media delivery system just to please a few ATV tech heads.

They won't dominate the living room with inferior hardware. It's that simple. iTunes is worthless for movies and TV if most people aren't buying the hardware to watch it on.

 

[dgalvan123]

Your right - it is in ATV's interest to have a blue-ray drive. It would be cool.

But is it in APPLE'S interest? No. It would shoot itunes in the foot.

And I think apple wants itunes to be successfull a hell of a lot more than it wants the ATV to be successful.

I doubt Apple would be so short sighted as to spend the last 18 months convicing us all to switch from optical-based media to downloadable streaming digital media directly from itunes, and then go and stick a blue ray drive in its steaming i-tunes media box.

Corporate suicide.

Well, a blu-ray drive wouldn't shoot itunes in the foot, since there is currently no way to get 1080p content through itunes. Adding a Blu-ray drive that would enable 1080p on the ATV. So it would be an additional feature.

Also, if they're trying to move us to streaming media, that doesn't mean they wouldn't like us to load that media onto our hard drives or ATV's using discs. When I put a music CD into my mac, it's iTunes that opens and let's me play it or rip it. Why shouldn't I be able to do the same thing with a movie DVD? And why not just put such a drive in Apple TV, so that we can rip the movie and music straight to the ATV hard drive and avoid streaming if we want to.

I recognize that enabling external HDD support for the Apple TV would enable the same functionality, because I could rip a DVD on my mac, put it on the external HD, then hook up that external HD to my ATV, and watch it. But the average consumer doesn't want to deal with all that. They want to come home from work, plop down on the couch, and turn on their entertainment.

 

[dynaflash]

Well, a blu-ray drive wouldn't shoot itunes in the foot, since there is currently no way to get 1080p content through itunes.

Right, but up until atv2, there was no way to get 720p content through iTunes either.

Why shouldn't I be able to do the same thing with a movie DVD?

Simple, the studios and copyright. This has been beat to death. For whatever the reason the movie studios treat it different than the record labels. Do I agree ? No. But it is plain that that's how it is. Its a very old story.

This whole "why doesnt itunes just let us rip dvd's/blu-ray like we do our music" frankly is an old bone to chew on. Trust me, it's not likely to happen.

So, it only seems logical that apple's only other solution is to play ball as best they can and offer content via the best deal they can get with the studios.

No content, no atv. Period.

Now, before you go and say "yeah, but I can always use HandBrake to do the same thing iTunes *could* do" remember that the HandBrake Project and Apple, Inc. are two completely different situations. Basically its "apples and oranges .. or .. er, pineapples".

 

[TomP80]

Well, a blu-ray drive wouldn't shoot itunes in the foot, since there is currently no way to get 1080p content through itunes. Adding a Blu-ray drive that would enable 1080p on the ATV. So it would be an additional feature.

As dynaflash pointed out, a much easier way of enabling 1080p in itunes is for apple to just release a new version of itunes that supports it - like they did with 720p.

The only question then is how to get 1080p output from the ATV. From my understanding, it is a bit ambiguous whether the GeForce Go 7300 graphics hardware in the ATV supports 1900x1080 resolution. If it does, then all we need is a software update - if not, and apple thinks 1080p is something worth having (debateable, given the file size issues which would possibly lead to streaming and syncing difficulties), then it will need a hardware update.

Also, if they're trying to move us to streaming media, that doesn't mean they wouldn't like us to load that media onto our hard drives or ATV's using discs. When I put a music CD into my mac, it's iTunes that opens and let's me play it or rip it. Why shouldn't I be able to do the same thing with a movie DVD? And why not just put such a drive in Apple TV, so that we can rip the movie and music straight to the ATV hard drive and avoid streaming if we want to.

As dynaflash also pointed out, there are studio issues involved - but there is also another issue.

I think that Apple allow you to rip music cds in itunes because at the time that ipods/itunes were released, that was pretty much the only (legal) way of getting music on to your ipod - legal digital media delivery wasn't around then. The itunes stores were either not established or in their infancy. So CD ripping was a feature that Apple really couldn't decide against having. And in later itunes releases, its not something they could take away because it didn't suit them.

For Movies/TV shows, its a different story - by the time that Apple started making video enabled devices, it had had so much success with digital delivery music (a lot more success than they expected) that they have decided that digital delivery through the itunes store was their method of choice for getting video content onto your ipod/iphone/ATV.

I think that Apple are actually quite happy at the stance the studios have taken on not allowing ripping of their DVD's/BlueRay's straight into itunes. That suits Apple just fine as it becomes a hell of a lot easier for them to sell downloadable video content through itunes when the method of transferring your DVD content into itunes compatible video is so complicated for the average user.

Apple actually have the best of both worlds on this - they can tell the consumers "hey - it's not us, it's the studios", while raking in the money from video downloads through the itunes store.