It just works

[slitherjef]

It's a saying I've heard about mac's and Linux as well but I don't know. I'm still in the flip flopping phase and trying to work some stuff out before I actually buy. My beef with my Linux systems is lack of support for what I want to do with it, creative stuff like photography. Sure can be done but not sure I'd trust the box to bring in cash especially if it's a creative thing, which leaves the other two major operating systems.

If you needed a system / computer / OS for your bread and butter, to not fail when you need it, what would you do? Back in the day I remember mac's used to be what one would get, "they just work" but what about for actual work?

Don't really have to be portable but could be, would need ports especially for drives. Windows irks me, it's also very not very secure, really need to pay attention, which is good, but don't want to get ransomwared. Mac's more secure but limited stuff I can do with it.

Linux secure as well, also more limited what I can do, but it's an uphill battle to learn it and get anywhere.

What "it just works" is going to work best? Windows would probably do everything, but...

 

[Erehy Dobon]

It's a saying I've heard about mac's and Linux as well but I don't know.

Ahaha, I have never heard anyone say "it just works" in reference to Linux.

And I was a UNIX/Linux system administrator for years.

Ever hear the term "dependency hell"? That's a Linux term. No operating system with that kind of rep "just works" [sic].

But thanks for the laughs!

😄

Anyhow, let's go back and review what an operating system. An operating system is a big complicated program and lets other big complicated programs co-exist peacefully on the same system.

Your choice of operating system should be based on the applications you run. I have a variety of devices running different operating systems because the stuff I need/want to get done doesn't happen on one device.

iOS/iPad on some mobile devices. There's LibreELEC on a Raspberry Pi 4. I don't know what runs on my Roku. I have Mac mini 2018 running Mojave for much of my home productivity stuff as well as managing my iTunes library. I have a Windows notebook, mostly to run MS Office for Windows, Quicken for Windows, and Fidelity Active Trader Pro. I have a more powerful SFF desktop Windows PC that does the same which also handles multimedia better. There's a Super Nintendo Classic which is actually a Linux box running the SNES emulator.

And there is also a nice custom built Windows 10 gaming PC. Because a lot of the games I want to play on a PC only run on Windows.

That's my usage case.

I have repeatedly stated in other threads that desktop Linux is a crushing failure. It used to be great resume fodder 15-20 years ago for servers. Not sure what any desktop Linux certification today will be any good for. Desktop Linux is great for deplorable battery performance on notebook PCs, that much is certain.

Just look at yours and decide which one(s) will help you do your tasks.

I fire up Linux about 3-4 times a year on my Raspberry Pi 4 to update the system (which might include firmware updates) and confirm that desktop Linux still sucks similar to how it sucked in the late Nineties.

 

[slitherjef]

Ahaha, I have never heard anyone say "it just works" in reference to Linux.

And I was a UNIX/Linux system administrator for years.

Ever hear the term "dependency hell"? That's a Linux term. Besides no operating system with that kind of rep "just works" [sic].

But thanks for the laughs!

😄

Erm, maybe I associated "it just works" with "it gets out of the way" pertaining to Linux

I really don't know why I'm bent on being a Linux user. It's been a hair pulling experience for most task, thought it was just me not knowing the OS like others do.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

If you are hell bent on running Linux, nothing I (nor anyone else) write will dissuade you from doing so.

And if you crawl back bloodied and whimpering after you spent days pounding your head against a brick wall trying to get some $20 commodity component to work, I won't even tell you "I told you so."

 

[slitherjef]

Definitely not hellbent on Linux, that's why I'm trying to figure out which "it just works" direction I should go. What system is going to give least amount of issues and reliable. It does sound like windows might just be the best bet in terms of at least usability.

Am I too paranoid and fud laden over windows 10 much covered issues? It's spyware, it's easy to hack, security holes, system breaking updates etc.

Edit:
Phone (pixel 2xl and chrome) went bonkers and couldn't finish the thought without a reboot. Sigh...

Anyway previous though is what I've heard others say about windows 10. I've used it, got a box but I guess the fud has kept me from really using windows 10. Just afraid I'd lose my photos from an update or some random bug or ransomware or something. Of course the general consensus is not to open email attachments or random exe files and pay attention to things.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

For me I'm more concerned about getting what I need to get done so I can move onto other more enjoyable things.

It has been a long time since I got paid to do system administration (of any kind) and I try to minimize the amount of time I end up doing it.

Getting desktop Linux to run on whatever barfy combination of commodity PC components isn't my idea of fun. Heck, I'd rather weed my garden.

I hereby bow out of further discussion in this thread.

Enjoy your journey of discovery.

 

[The_Interloper]

You can pretty much run anything on any hardware on Windows. For all of its faults, quirks and criticisms, it's a miracle really. It's probably the one operating system that has little in the way of limitations. Sadly, it's also ugly as sin in places and riddled with the most annoying and intrusive update system known to mankind.

But if we're talking about what "just works", then macOS has to be the choice. Apple limit the hardware and, as a result, it does as it's supposed to most of the time. You're always at the mercy of Apple's whims, eye-watering prices and forced obsolescence, though.

As for Linux, no thanks. Tried running an actual business on it back in the day and it was absolute hell. Great for people who like to tinker but useless for anyone who needs to actually use mainstream software.

 

[slitherjef]

Sigh...
Just trying to out what system to go back to from Linux. Been pretty out of touch with the mainstream OSes for a while. That's why I posted.

 

[MBAir2010]

i just spent over 30 minutes trying to figure out how to get outlook from automatically filling in email i will never use again, and could not delete these addresses, so i deleted the outlook program app on the dell XPS for good!
then i found out siri wants to use old email addresses i will never use again, so i had to disable siri suggestions, and other siri thing is never use, which worked!

i was thinking how linux might be better on the dell xps because windows is good, but getting advice and problem solving is horribly wrong online, even on windows 10 sites.

 

[James Gryphon]

My personal testimony since I started using Windows 10 some time back (after a series of switches - something like OS X > Linux > Windows > Linux > Windows) is that it is a decent operating system that is both (relatively) easy to use and broadly compatible.

Yes, it has its problems, but every operating system has problems (as you've found out the hard way with Linux). I feel that Windows' troubles tend to be overhyped in the press, especially compared to the issues that Linux or even macOS have. The impression you get if you read the news is that people are continually, 100% of the time, losing their data from ransomware, or being hacked into, or having their computer destroyed by MS updates, but from my experience that's just not the case. If you use it professionally and responsibly, it shouldn't be drastically different from the Mac side (while being a good bit easier than Linux).

If somebody gave me a lot of money to buy a new computer, I would probably get a Mac. My time away from the platform has shown me that I prefer it and its advantages to the Windows world. However, if the price isn't right, and/or you don't automatically prefer the Mac interface, you don't need to be afraid of using Windows 10. Windows was and still is "good enough" for most people.

This is probably pretty obvious to you as an experienced user, but the two things I'd recommend to address your concerns are to 1) frequently back up your data, and 2) hold off on new "feature updates" until they've been proven. There's stability when you stay away from the cutting edge.

 

[DarthVader!]

It's a saying I've heard about mac's and Linux as well but I don't know.

I've never heard that for Linux, quite the opposite, the work needed to get Linux to function has been viewed as overwhelming at times. Thanks to new distros that need to mess with under the hood stuff has been somewhat muted but not completely removed

I really don't know why I'm bent on being a Linux user. It's been a hair pulling experience for most task

That's been my experience as well, whether we are talking about trying get the wifi to function or bluetooth it has been a frustrating experience.

Been pretty out of touch with the mainstream OSes

I may anger some linux folks here but at 2.43% desktop market share I'd say it's more of a niche OS than mainstream. It isn't a bad OS, just one that hasn't gained any traction in the desktop demographic.

 

[LeeW]

Linux in relation to desktops certainly does not 'just work', more a case of 'it requires work to work'.

Working with Linux every day in server environments for 20 years I would never consider it as a desktop OS and would not recommend it to anyone that had to ask whether they could use it.

 

[c0ppo]

I find these posts amusing.
I'm using PopOS (ubuntu based) at the moment. Installed it on my thankpad x1 extreme and my PC.
Installation takes about 10mins or so. Way less than installing Windows for example.

I didn't have to do anything besides few clicks during installation. And everything works after installing. All drivers for my hardware simply work. Now, reading these posts, this seems like a miracle, and I must have won a lottery or something

P.S.
Besides how 'hard' some OS is or isn't, Linux simply isn't for photography or designers. It's not about OS, but the apps that are available on OS. And Linux really lacks high quality photo/design apps. Any other OS is easily better than Linux in this field. And this is coming from a guy that uses Linux as his main OS, but uses other 2 OS as well from time to time

 

[DarthVader!]

Besides how 'hard' some OS is or isn't

But it is.

People will be more resistant to try to use an operating system that is viewed as hard or needs a lot of under the hood customizations or alterations. I went to forums.fedoraforum.org and many of the threads direct the people to things like editing conf files, using different kernels or other technical steps that are far beyond the means of a common consumer.

The popOS forum (https://pop-planet.info/forums/) appears to be a bit better but there's issues and resolutions that go beyond that of what needs to be done to Windows or MacOS to world

Edit: I guess what I'm saying is, that by and large many consumers and perhaps a healthy segment of hobbyists will use the path of least resistance and given the learning curve and also the need to monkey with the system comes into play. People will go with what they know.

There are people like yourself who have zero issues with setting up and hitting the ground running and i'm not discounting that, my point is that Linux having a reputation of needing more attention fails to draw people in

 

[sracer]

It's a saying I've heard about mac's and Linux as well but I don't know. I'm still in the flip flopping phase and trying to work some stuff out before I actually buy. My beef with my Linux systems is lack of support for what I want to do with it, creative stuff like photography. Sure can be done but not sure I'd trust the box to bring in cash especially if it's a creative thing, which leaves the other two major operating systems.

If you needed a system / computer / OS for your bread and butter, to not fail when you need it, what would you do? Back in the day I remember mac's used to be what one would get, "they just work" but what about for actual work?

Don't really have to be portable but could be, would need ports especially for drives. Windows irks me, it's also very not very secure, really need to pay attention, which is good, but don't want to get ransomwared. Mac's more secure but limited stuff I can do with it.

Linux secure as well, also more limited what I can do, but it's an uphill battle to learn it and get anywhere.

What "it just works" is going to work best? Windows would probably do everything, but...

I heavily use devices that run Mac OS, Windows, Linux, and Chrome OS. They all have their strengths and weaknesses and how well they do depends upon my needs for the season I'm in. But given the direction that Apple continues to go in, Mac OS (and the hardware that runs it) is becoming less attractive to me.

My long-term destination at this point is Windows (as I need to replace my systems, they're being replaced with systems running Windows). I'm not a fan of Windows 10... not at all. Although it is stable and solid in day-to-day use, every update to Win 10 brings with it the probability of problems and issues. The UI is still a mess 6 years after its release (even longer if you include Windows 8.x). But it provides the flexibility and software options that are helpful to me.

So the challenge for me was how to tame Win10. I have found that by cleaning up Win 10 to remove bloat (not just preinstalled bloatware but system stuff I don't want or need), disabling telemetry, updating to the latest version then locking out updates (WUB ftw!), the system remains lean, stable, and speedy for the long term.

I use the built-in Windows Security for antivirus and use ublock Origin extension on my web browsers. These and common sense practices have kept my systems safe. I know this might not be a solution for everyone, but it can be a great option for those willing to invest the time.

The added benefit of switching to Windows is that there is a lot of great hardware choices at very reasonable prices.

(edited to fix typos)

 

[I7guy]

I find these posts amusing.
I'm using PopOS (ubuntu based) at the moment. Installed it on my thankpad x1 extreme and my PC.
Installation takes about 10mins or so. Way less than installing Windows for example.

I didn't have to do anything besides few clicks during installation. And everything works after installing. All drivers for my hardware simply work. Now, reading these posts, this seems like a miracle, and I must have won a lottery or something

P.S.
Besides how 'hard' some OS is or isn't, Linux simply isn't for photography or designers. It's not about OS, but the apps that are available on OS. And Linux really lacks high quality photo/design apps. Any other OS is easily better than Linux in this field. And this is coming from a guy that uses Linux as his main OS, but uses other 2 OS as well from time to time

I agree the installation for ubuntu is pretty seamless. And I do have a distro available as a virtual machine. But it is not usable for me on a daily basis, although there is some really cool (and good) software available for ubuntu.

I'm glad there is competition to Windows, but frankly the world for the most part, runs on Windows.

 

[GalileoSeven]

I heavily use devices that run Mac OS, Windows, Linux, and Chrome OS. They all have their strengths and weaknesses and how well they do depends upon my needs for the season I'm in. But given the direction that Apple continues to go in, Mac OS (and the hardware that runs it) is becoming less attractive to me.

My long-term destination at this point is Windows (as I need to replace my systems, they're being replaced with systems running Windows). I'm not a fan of Windows 10... not at all. Although it is stable and solid in day-to-day use, every update to Win 10 brings with it the probability of problems and issues. The UI is still a mess 6 years after its release (even longer if you include Windows 8.x). But it provides the flexibility and software options that are helpful to me.

So the challenge for me was how to tame Win10. I have found that by cleaning up Win 10 to remove bloat (not just preinstalled bloatware but system stuff I don't want or need), disabling telemetry, updating to the latest version then locking out updates (WUB ftw!), the system remains lean, stable, and speedy for the long term.

I use the built-in Windows Security for antivirus and use adblock Origin extension on my web browsers. These and common sense practices have kept my systems safe. I know this might not be a solution for everyone, but it can be a great option for those willing to invest the time.

The added benefit of switching to Windows is that there is a lot of great hardware choices at very reasonable prices.

I'll echo these sentiments right here (save for the fact I've never ran anything with Linux or Chrome). Yes, the potential for things to get messy is much higher for Windows now than it is for macOS (although that gap may be closing). IMO though, Windows has evolved to the point where if you use some common sense practices, it can remain just as--if not more--buttery smooth.

I bought a solid gaming laptop last January. After taking some time to remove some bloatware and other unneeded/unwanted stuff, I downloaded the programs I need (Steam, MS Office, Malwarebytes), tossed some extensions onto my browser of choice (Ghostery, uBlock Origin on Chrome) and I was off to the races.

I manage email on my phone or work laptop and I've still got calendar integration using my gmail address, so all I'm really missing here is the convenience/novelty of using iMessage and syncing 'Reminders' on the desktop.

Everyone's use case is different, but with just a tad bit of time, Windows can be made to run just as smooth as macOS.

 

[LeeW]

I find these posts amusing.

Equally, I find it amusing that people who are tech-savvy believe everyone must be as capable.

The reality is that you take any 1,000 non-technical users and tell them to install Linux on their Windows device 900+ will fail. Most that succeed will pretty quickly go back to Windows. The remaining 10 will stay with Linux.

Even the people that maintain Linux will tell you there is no future in it as a desktop environment for general users. It will as it always has been, for enthusiasts and those that have a specific reason to use it.

 

[sixtydashone]

If you are hell bent on running Linux, nothing I (nor anyone else) write will dissuade you from doing so.

And if you crawl back bloodied and whimpering after you spent days pounding your head against a brick wall trying to get some $20 commodity component to work, I won't even tell you "I told you so."

You remind me of when I tried to run Ubuntu on my laptop back in like 2013. I was up til 4am just trying to get a wifi printer working. Found online and tried a number of possible fixes but never did succeed at that. And then there was the issues with multi-monitor. I used it at work when I had to, but to hell with running that daily on a personal machine.

 

[maflynn]

And then there was the issues

That's largely be been my experience and it could be my tag line - then there were issues.

I've tried a number of distros over the years, most of them required some level of monkeying with the guts of Linux in some form or fashion. I've had varying levels of success and in some rare occasions the install was problem free.

I really like popOS and that was one of the instances where installing and using the operating system was successful and very easy. Perhaps things have improved since I last tried (years ago) and now it requires less work. One of the biggest headaches I've incurred was upgrading the OS, that NEVER went right and I ended up reformatting and starting over.

At the end of the day, with a popOS running on my laptop, I could have switched over to linux if it hadn't been for one major short coming. Apps, and as mentioned above, that's probably the biggest hindrance to wide spread adoption. Sure the reputation of needing to tweak/modify the underpinnings of the OS is certainly present but at the end of the day, if an operating system cannot run what you need, any OS, not just Linux, then its not a good fit.

 

[c0ppo]

People will be more resistant to try to use an operating system that is viewed as hard or needs a lot of under the hood customizations or alterations. I went to forums.fedoraforum.org and many of the threads direct the people to things like editing conf files, using different kernels or other technical steps that are far beyond the means of a common consumer.

Well, there is your problem. Fedora is a bleeding edge distro. Latest kernel, latest software, etc.
So of course there will be new found issues that a regular user can't easily resolve. For that reason I avoid arch distros, or Fedora. Latest isn't always the greatest

People will go with what they know.

I agree 100%

Equally, I find it amusing that people who are tech-savvy believe everyone must be as capable.

It's not about being tech-savvy or something similar. I've installed Ubuntu for my mother. She is anything but tech-savvy. When she used windows 10, every now and then I had to 'fix' something. Ubuntu is there for a while now, not even once did I have to fix something. And she isn't complaining at all, on the same PC she says that her computer is now faster (feels like faster I guess?).

The reality is that you take any 1,000 non-technical users and tell them to install Linux on their Windows device 900+ will fail. Most that succeed will pretty quickly go back to Windows. The remaining 10 will stay with Linux.

I agree. But if you take thos 1,000 non-tech folks and ask them to install Windows, what would happen? They would manage to do it?
Because installing PopOS is way easier and faster than installing Windows. That is my whole point

 

[thisismyusername]

Ha. I've never heard "Linux" and "it just works" in the same sentence. Even the Linux evangelists I know won't dare say something like that. I'm a software engineer, use Linux every day (just not as a desktop OS) and I sometimes can't stand that so many people on my team use Linux on their laptops (the other half use Macs). Anytime we get on a zoom call or something, there's always someone who's having technical difficulties and guess which OS they're running? Same thing in the past when we're having in-person meetings and someone needed to use a projector... the Windows/Mac folks just plug in and go; the Linux folks force us to all sit around and wait while they screw around with settings to get it to work. Want to connect to our corporate VPN? Good luck on Linux; it's possible to get it to work but it's a hassle. Even googling what should be really simple solutions to simple problems can be a big headache because you'll get tons of obsolete and wrong answers.

Linux is a great server OS and I do like it but it's far from "just working" in the desktop world. As for desktop use goes, it's for enthusiasts who like to tinker and folks who really want/need a "*nix" OS but hate Apple.

 

[drdudj]

a lot depends on the "why's"...why do you have a computer? how many people buy a computer not knowing or understanding much about the internal parts, and install programs that the computer isn't capable of running without causing major headaches. or they install add ons that choke the system down without realizing it, and visit sites they shouldn't and pick up some malware and before you know it they are cussing out their pc and the system, and call it junk when in fact the computer was a low end computer to start with and never meant to do what they tried to make it do, regardless of the os.

I enjoy reading other posts, not only to see other's point of view on the different systems, but you never know when you might learn something. I always remember back to when I bought my first computer in 1995, and about a week later the wife walked in to our "computer room" and I was sitting on the floor, the case removed, the cd drive removed, the hard drive removed, the sound card removed, and she freaked out, "What are you doing?" I just wanted to physically see the parts that I had been reading about, and from there I went on to upgrade the cd drive, the graphics card and added more ram. from that point on I was reading all I could about how to figure out what was wrong and how to fix it. I printed out instructions on how to recover from a system that would not boot, and practiced recovering my system just to see if I could. at times it was gut wrenching, and one time I spent 5 long days, having to use a friend's computer to research the problems I was having, and then using that information to try and solve my problem, and eventually I was able to get it back up and running. whew !! as frightening as it was, it was also very rewarding.

how many of us when we first got our windows 95 wanted 3rd party themes, and dual boot capabilities with ubuntu, or some other os, and soon found our system bogged down and did reinstalls after reinstalls? I did. I went through all the customizations back in the day. but now days all I want is a clean looking, fast and streamlined system that boots up fast, opens up apps instantly, handles emails, surfing, photos, and videos without bogging down. I found that with my first apple, MacBook Air M1.

 

[iluvmacs99]

It's a saying I've heard about mac's and Linux as well but I don't know. I'm still in the flip flopping phase and trying to work some stuff out before I actually buy. My beef with my Linux systems is lack of support for what I want to do with it, creative stuff like photography. Sure can be done but not sure I'd trust the box to bring in cash especially if it's a creative thing, which leaves the other two major operating systems.

If you needed a system / computer / OS for your bread and butter, to not fail when you need it, what would you do? Back in the day I remember mac's used to be what one would get, "they just work" but what about for actual work?

Don't really have to be portable but could be, would need ports especially for drives. Windows irks me, it's also very not very secure, really need to pay attention, which is good, but don't want to get ransomwared. Mac's more secure but limited stuff I can do with it.

Linux secure as well, also more limited what I can do, but it's an uphill battle to learn it and get anywhere.

What "it just works" is going to work best? Windows would probably do everything, but...

Mac justs work, because Apple designed the hardware and wrote the software for it so you have drivers that don't conflict with each other and applications that just works without little to no conflict with the OS. While with Linux, it depends really on what computer system you have and which package has all the drivers that make the system work really well out of box. It just works if everything is setup and configured properly by a LINUX installer before the machine is sold, which we did.

I used to volunteer and worked at a non-profit technology organization that is big on Linux, mainly with Ubuntu and Mint and when you have an old PC that Linux fully supports with the correct drivers, everything just works. But the most likely scenario is that Linux does not have full drivers support on most older PCs and it just works somewhat. But you know, our clients are mainly coming from low income families where they just need a low-cost machine to connect to the internet with Chrome, do their homework, do Zoom and what not and those work. And both Ubuntu and Mint give old PCs a new lease on life. Yes, Windows 10 can in some cases fill the low income support, but when people install Linux, they do want to learn and they get very good with the command line.

Not everyone likes Linux and it usually comes down its complexity in first setting it up. But once it's setup, Linux is free, has security updates support for a few years and is lighter on older machines. It makes older machines run a bit faster and if your needs are modest; web browsing, email and Google Suite plus LibreOffice, then Linux just works. Surprisingly enough, that's what most people would need. Simple tasks. And sometimes we are spoiled in using the latest Intel and AMD CPUs that we do not realize income equality is a true reality. When I was working at the poor neighbourhoods; I was shocked that most people were using 1st and 2nd Gen i5 and i7 machines with some PowerPC machines thrown into the mix that would come into our nightly community gatherings. Or Core 2 Duos. Ubuntu 18 and Mint 20 work great on older Intel platforms with only 2 to 4Gb of ram.

I had setup my old MacBook Pro 17" 2009 machine with Linux Mint 20 for my dad who has a mild case of dementia. He has no problems using it even with some challenge with dementia, because I set it up almost like a Mac OS with a bottom task bar. He just points and click. It's decently fast and it runs with a HD; not even SSD. Once a month, I come over and do updating and maintenance on his machine. When I was working at the non-profit technology organization, we would have a Wednesday night event where people can bring in their Linux, Windows and Mac machines down to our community forum for our techs to look over and help with the maintenance issues. It was based on donation. Linux works when you have a community of people helping each other in a friendly atmosphere. I really missed that.

 

[pshufd]

I used Linux at work for two decades in a software engineering environment. We had a bunch of Linux admins that took care of updates, maintenance, etc. We have macOS and Windows available on the desktop and for mobility. You can install Linux but you're on your own for support.

I find Linux useful for some things but I'm more inclined to run it in a Virtual Machine if I need it.