Italian Regulators Conclude Corporate Tax Investigation Against Apple

[centauratlas]

Corporations don't pay taxes, people do. Power-hungry, corrupt politicians use corporations to collect the taxes and use them as scapegoats. Politicians use it to hide the amount of money they are collecting from people from the voters. For the people not paying attention they say, "sock it to the corporations," people cheer, and then the company passes it along to consumers through higher prices.

Apple has margins they require and will charge accordingly. When/if Apple has to pay higher taxes in Italy and raises prices to cover their costs and margins in Italy.

 

[MasterRyu2011]

The spirit of laws doesn't exist and is a pipe dream. The fact that different lawyers interpret the same law differently should tell us that.

While it is easy to blame corporations, as others posted it is the law makers fault to introduce laws with loopholes, incentives to get business into their countries etc.etc.

But, any law is a no win situation.

For every bright lawmaker there are thousands of creative accountants and lawyers who will figure out how to "interpret" a law to their benefit.

The mob mentality of Apple is guilty or Apple is not guilty is misguided.

How about just waiting for the facts and outcome?

I predict the investigators find something (Nobody is perfect) via questionable interpretation of their laws (always lots of rubber for stretching thing into a certain direction) and Apple "settles" accordingly
to be done.

OK, this is NOT about Apple. This is about large corporations in general, Apple included. Google, Microsoft, etc. are as much a part of this. I get the feeling that if Google was the main story here that people wouldn't be so defensive.

I blame both the politicians and the corporations. Politicians for being puppets to corporations and corporations for constantly seeking favors from their politicians to help their cause at the expense of others.

So yes, the system is flawed. Maybe that's the middle ground. Blame the system, right?

 

[yaxomoxay]

Wait, are you saying that you yourself are not aware of the corruption that goes on behind closed government doors?

One thing is saying that some corruption exists, which is undeniable. One thing is saying that the vast majority (or even many) of those working in governments are corrupted, corruptible or corrupting.

 

[sualpine]

One thing is saying that some corruption exists, which is undeniable. One thing is saying that the vast majority (or even many) of those working in governments are corrupted, corruptible or corrupting.

Solving this is easy. Close the loopholes and lower the tax rate.

 

[MasterRyu2011]

Why are you labeling legal tax avoidance as corruption?

I didn't.

I said the lawmakers are corrupt.

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

Apple did not break any laws.

How do you know that? Have you read all the available documents?

These investigations happen when greedy liberals smell money that they can't have.

You have done an extensive study of the voting habits of the Italian officials involved?


FWIW, I think corporate income tax is doomed. There is no way to fairly determine what an international corporation owes when so much of the revenue is due to intangibles. How much are OS X or iOS worth on an individual device?

And, I see no reason why Apple "should" pay more in taxes than legally required. If, indeed, Apple stayed legal. The courts will have to determine that.

 

[MasterRyu2011]

One thing is saying that some corruption exists, which is undeniable. One thing is saying that the vast majority (or even many) of those working in governments are corrupted, corruptible or corrupting.

OK, not all. But most politicians in government are. That is an opinion of mine. By nature, humans are corruptible. Politicians are certainly put in a situation to be easily pressured to perform actions indicative of corruption.

 

[yaxomoxay]

OK, not all. But most politicians in government are. That is an opinion of mine. By nature, humans are corruptible. Politicians are certainly put in a situation to be easily pressured to perform actions indicative of corruption.

Of course I respect your opinion.

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

It sickens me when people defend the creative attempts of these large corporations to avoid paying tax. No laws may have been broken (still questionable), but it's still against the spirit of laws. Unethical even. This is not just about Apple; it's about every large corporation that does this.

I'm about as far to the southwest on the values quadrant as anybody who posts here, but, I don't see why Apple should pay more than it is legally required to. We don't have a fair way of taxing corporations. I would much rather focus on taxing individuals, and, their consumption. I have a much bigger problem with rich people, who own ten houses and vacation homes and millions in art and so on, not paying taxes, than, a corporation. The corporation might be paying a dividend to your poor grandma as far as you know. Why (necessarily) tax that?

 

[sualpine]

I'm about as far to the southwest on the values quadrant as anybody who posts here, but, I don't see why Apple should pay more than it is legally required to. We don't have a fair way of taxing corporations. I would much rather focus on taxing individuals, and, their consumption. I have a much bigger problem with rich people, who own ten houses and vacation homes and millions in art and so on, not paying taxes, than, a corporation. The corporation might be paying a dividend to your poor grandma as far as you know. Why (necessarily) tax that?

People that don't create wealth only know how to seize it.

 

[Attonine]

So we should not blame corporations who lobby for these loopholes? Humans, by nature, are corrupt.

----------

Lobbying is not illegal. If you want lobbying to stop, lobby your congressman to get the law changed.

Your initial supposition that most politicians are corrupt is the issue, not the lobbying. To continue your supposition, if the politicians were not corrupt, did not have their hands out, the lobbyists would not be able to bribe them (I'm assuming bribing is implied). The actions of the corporations are the symptom, the actions of the lawmakers are the cause.


I do not believe that most politicians are corrupt. I do believe that a lot of them are out for self interest - they will not do the "right thing" for fear of losing power, their position etc, and a lot are also just not very good. Personally I find the faux outrage by lawmakers at corporate tax avoidance along with sensationalist journalism around the subject more troubling than the avoidance in the first place. The cause of the issue is known. The solution is known. Now the lawmakers just need to do it.

 

[MH01]

Italy needs money... Let's milk the biggest cash cow we can find!

Yeah, Apple is the victim here. Assume you did not even bother to read the article.

 

[roadbloc]

Italy needs money... Let's milk the biggest cash cow we can find!

Italy does need money. And big corporations like Apple owe money. The loopholes they use here in Europe to avoid tax are kinda cute but it's time to pay up now. Enough is enough.

 

[69650]

This is just the beginning. It will be the start of a domino affect with one country after the next going after Apple for their little tax avoidance tricks. This is going to cost Apple many billions of dollars over the next few years. The UK in line with other countries are also changing their tax regulations to make Appple's set up illegal going forward landing them with estimated tax bills plus huge fines if they don't play ball. IMO this is well overdue.

 

[ThisIsNotMe]

A bankrupt socialist country extorting money out of the producing class. ***shocked***

 

[MasterRyu2011]

Lobbying is not illegal. If you want lobbying to stop, lobby your congressman to get the law changed.

Your initial supposition that most politicians are corrupt is the issue, not the lobbying. To continue your supposition, if the politicians were not corrupt, did not have their hands out, the lobbyists would not be able to bribe them (I'm assuming bribing is implied). The actions of the corporations are the symptom, the actions of the lawmakers are the cause.


I do not believe that most politicians are corrupt. I do believe that a lot of them are out for self interest - they will not do the "right thing" for fear of losing power, their position etc, and a lot are also just not very good. Personally I find the faux outrage by lawmakers at corporate tax avoidance along with sensationalist journalism around the subject more troubling than the avoidance in the first place. The cause of the issue is known. The solution is known. Now the lawmakers just need to do it.

OK, I get that it's the lawmakers that allow this. So yes I would love to get rid of lobbying and just make it damn illegal to participate in it. A las, the corporations will not make that happen. The folks who get elected seem to be the ones with a huge campaign funded by these corporations and other special interest groups.

 

[OLDCODGER]

So much envy and greed on this board. Apple should not pay one dollar more than it absolutely needs to.

As for "wealth sharing" and "redistribution" - it's called theft.

 

[yaxomoxay]

A bankrupt socialist country extorting money out of the producing class. ***shocked***

Are you saying that Italy is a socialist country? I guess you don't know much about its post-war history.

 

[Thunderhawks]

OK, this is NOT about Apple. This is about large corporations in general, Apple included. Google, Microsoft, etc. are as much a part of this. I get the feeling that if Google was the main story here that people wouldn't be so defensive.

I blame both the politicians and the corporations. Politicians for being puppets to corporations and corporations for constantly seeking favors from their politicians to help their cause at the expense of others.

So yes, the system is flawed. Maybe that's the middle ground. Blame the system, right?

The system will rarely be changed as there are too many interests at stake.

Money drives everything.

A party which receives (or wants to receive) donations and other favors will pay corporations back accordingly until something results in an outcry by the public.

Then the "scandal"gets highlighted for a few days and after that, back to business as usual.

That IS the system.

 

[sofila]

As a (proud) member of some "ignore" lists, I welcome this kind of threads that let me update my personal one. Very useful option indeed. Thank you

 

[itr81]

I think Tim Cook even offered advice on improving the tax code so apple in the US wouldn't have to keep their money overseas, but I doubt anything came of it. In the US we tend to look for an easy buck and right now that's Apple. No country likes to be told their laws are flawed so when someone uses it to for tax avoidance we see countries going to court to try to get settlements for something their laws already allow. Countries are spreading countless dollars on these tax avoidance cases against big corp. companies instead of just fixing their tax system's. They should just call it what it is and its a corp. shake down. Any big corp. is a prime target. I'm sure all the countries that apple does business in will eventually jump in on this corp. shake down.

 

[itr81]

Corporations don't pay taxes, people do. Power-hungry, corrupt politicians use corporations to collect the taxes and use them as scapegoats. Politicians use it to hide the amount of money they are collecting from people from the voters. For the people not paying attention they say, "sock it to the corporations," people cheer, and then the company passes it along to consumers through higher prices.

Apple has margins they require and will charge accordingly. When/if Apple has to pay higher taxes in Italy and raises prices to cover their costs and margins in Italy.

That's the cost of doing business in some countries. The buck is paid to the government and that extra cost is passed down to the consumers. All the while the consumer is thinking the government is doing them a favour but in fact it's just a vicious cycle.

 

[IbisDoc]

Apple did not break any laws. These investigations happen when greedy liberals smell money that they can't have.

Oh, the irony of Apple apparently being victimized by greedy liberals.

 

[Santabean2000]

It sickens me when people defend thecreative attempts of these large corporations to avoid paying tax. No laws may have been broken (still questionable), but it's still against the spirit of laws. Unethical even. This is not just about Apple; it's about every large corporation that does this.

Which country doesn't need tax money? Blind patriotism detected.

OK, it's another story about Apple getting caught doing something wrong. Bring out the uniformed loonies. How dare they pick on "us"!

Yeah, Apple is the victim here. Assume you did not even bother to read the article.

Italy does need money. And big corporations like Apple owe money. The loopholes they use here in Europe to avoid tax are kinda cute but it's time to pay up now. Enough is enough.

Funny. My post was tounge-in-cheek. I'm not naive enough to think Apple if faultless here. It's just a game - smart folks (or those rich enough to pay smart folks) will find ways to avoid taxes. This is not exclusive to big companies, as all of us don't like paying taxes. But there is no doubt that Apple has deep pockets, thus making them a target for 'investigation', just in case they pushed the laws too far. Tax law is by design very grey. All part of the game.

No point in coming after me; I have no cash...

 

[Mousse]

It's impossible for law makers to ensure there are no loopholes when it comes to taxes.

There is one way, but it would never happen. The KISS (keep it simple, stupid) method. Flat percentage rate for different tax brackets and NO deductions. That's a tax code so simple you don't need to be a bean counter to understand. Like Scotty said in The Search for Spock, "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." The more complex the tax code, the more ways Big Bidness can funnel away funds.