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dbasskin said:
Is the world of music licensing complex? Yes. Is such complexity inevitable? Yes, but complexity isn't the same thing as inefficiency. I share everyone's frustration with how long it's taking iTunes Music Store to come to Canada, but the matter is in their hands. Even if music publishers and songwriters fell on their swords tomorrow and agreed to the use of their songs without licenses or compensation, it would still take time and effort to achieve.

Once again, I urge those of you with an interest in this subject to make your views known to Apple Canada.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada


It is amazing that you don't seem to see that the very thing you describe, the nightmare of, yes, quagmires and, you bet! inefficiencies, has NOTHING to do with Apple. I read and re-read what you have said and written and I can only stand in stunned amazement at your explanations. It's organizations like yours that are the heart and root of the problem. Why keep passing the buck back to Apple? They only offer to the public what is allowed them. It is the organization(s) that YOU represent that needs to turn over every stone and do everything at the highest speed to assist Apple to get the job done. You point out all the the things Apple has to do, over which it has no control, then lay the blame at their feet. Were that to be remotely true there wouldn't have been an iTMS in the US as it ought to be, by the far greater number of artists and companies to be dealt with, far harder to achieve than the CA counterpart.
Blaming Apple for not achieving what it so competently did in the US is well... hey, there's nothing one can say.

I do hope you guys actually do something useful about this. It would be unreal if OZ got its store up and running before Canada did!
 
rjwill246 said:
I do hope you guys actually do something useful about this. It would be unreal if OZ got its store up and running before Canada did!

I second that one! Being a Canadian, I can't wait for iTMS to be availbale here - I would be all over it! Right now the only options available for me to obtain music are essentially by buying the CD or downloading it illegally for free. Buying the CD is silly and inefficient, especially if I only want a few tracks, or want to "try out the CD" to determine if I like it or not. Plus, CDs are getting antiquated in my mind - I don't want those bulky cases and discs cluttering up my home - if I buy CDs now they just get ripped into iTunes anyway, put on my iPod and I never touch the CD again. So buying CDs isn't really a sensible, viable option, so guess what I'm left with? Yah, the downloading option, which I don't like since it's illegal. But guess what? If people had access to an iTMS, a decent percentage of them would stop using P2P systems - they only use it because it is essentially their only option.

Please get iTMS Canada (as well as other countries of course!) rolling soon, as it will actually reduce P2P piracy - and isn't that what you want?!? :cool:
 
rjwill246 said:
It is amazing that you don't seem to see that the very thing you describe, the nightmare of, yes, quagmires and, you bet! inefficiencies, has NOTHING to do with Apple. I read and re-read what you have said and written and I can only stand in stunned amazement at your explanations. It's organizations like yours that are the heart and root of the problem. Why keep passing the buck back to Apple? They only offer to the public what is allowed them. It is the organization(s) that YOU represent that needs to turn over every stone and do everything at the highest speed to assist Apple to get the job done. You point out all the the things Apple has to do, over which it has no control, then lay the blame at their feet. Were that to be remotely true there wouldn't have been an iTMS in the US as it ought to be, by the far greater number of artists and companies to be dealt with, far harder to achieve than the CA counterpart.
Blaming Apple for not achieving what it so competently did in the US is well... hey, there's nothing one can say.

I do hope you guys actually do something useful about this. It would be unreal if OZ got its store up and running before Canada did!

Maybe the industry with all its divisions and sub divivsions of self interest doesnt really want to help Apple! Just because a few million consumers think it is great, doesnt mean the industry likes the way Apple is storming in changing things. iTMS is a one year experiment afterall and perhaps having been shown the light, there are forces at work to hijack the model and screw ever more revenue out of download music sales.
 
wolfywolfbits said:
eSnow, dbasskin am I missing something?

I don't understand the analogy to communism, or the general complaint from eSnow at all :confused:

I was not talking about the "state owns all" aspect of communism, but that communist regimes were so afraid of the possibility that flexibility might bring about injustice that they tried to have rules and regulations for each and everything. Eventually, they slowed down progress so much that most were poorer than in competing systems.

His organization works much the same way - trying to make sure everyone gets his fair share (which is a good thing), they are missing the point that a lot of revenue is lost because people have no possibility to spend their money.

I simply do not buy the idea that online shops refuse to sign sensible agreements. Apple Europe finally woke up from the idea to negociate deals in all memberstates before launch (I was quite vokal here that it was a dumb idea) and go for the three biggest countries first, which implies they can act faster than the licensing authorities in all other EU-countries.
 
iTunes Europe - Starting in June?

Great news if it does finally land in June.

If there are difference pricing structures for Europe compared to the US then I'm guessing this will be down to the music industry and not Apple.

Europeans already pay more money that our US counterparts for music cds, even if the origin of the music published is from Europe.
 

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w0nt0n said:
Great news if it does finally land in June.

If there are difference pricing structures for Europe compared to the US then I'm guessing this will be down to the music industry and not Apple.

I dunno.. We pay a lot more for Apple gear, even if you factor in the higher taxes over here. So, I would not put it past Apple so show some greed when selling music too.
 
winmacguy said:
The interesting thing is that out side of the US some of the people who have iPods dont realise you can PLAY music on them ( they use them as a portable storage device). Most people dont realise that you can use iTunes to get music from the iTMS, and the people who do have music on their iPods (like the rest of us) have ripped it from their CD collection.

What!!?? I don't think so. How many people do you know who buy an iPod and don't even know it can play music! That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I live outside the US, and have worked in an Apple Store, and I have never heard of anyone who has actually bought an iPod and not known it can play music. How would that happen? What kind of a sales person would recommend an iPod to someone who just wanted a portable hard drive? They're about twice the price! If they did recommend it, they would have to make it clear that it is also an awesome mp3 player in order to justify the expense.
 
ottawaman said:
Nice site. All the Beatles songs are available for download for instance. Somehow I doubt Apple Corps in UK has given this Russian site permission to sell their entire catalogue for a few pennies...They can claim that they don't break any laws in Russia all they want, but they still need permission from the copyright holders. All ain't right, back in the USSR...

I just looked over the site really quickly but wow! This beats the iTMS handsdown...well iTMS has a better interface and is quicker but also has DRM. I may switch stores...I can't believe I just said that :)
 
rjwill246 said:
It is amazing that you don't seem to see that the very thing you describe, the nightmare of, yes, quagmires and, you bet! inefficiencies, has NOTHING to do with Apple. I read and re-read what you have said and written and I can only stand in stunned amazement at your explanations. It's organizations like yours that are the heart and root of the problem. Why keep passing the buck back to Apple? They only offer to the public what is allowed them. It is the organization(s) that YOU represent that needs to turn over every stone and do everything at the highest speed to assist Apple to get the job done.

Either I'm not making myself clear or you're being deliberately obtuse.

1. Like it or not, the music industry is divided into two principal groups of rights-holders: song owners (music publishers) and recording owners (record companies).

2. We have made an immense number of songs available through a single agreement that comes as close to one-stop shopping as possible. Without this agreement, an online music vendor would be compelled to chase down thousands of individual music publishers. We have entered into this agreement with four online companies to date and look forward to dong the same with Apple.

3. The record companies have no central licensing body. An online service must enter into deals with each label individually. It would certainly be easier for an online service to deal with a central licensing body, but the record companies haven't seen fit to create one.

4. CMRRA has no control whatsoever over the behaviour of the record companies.

5. The range and complexity of licensing issues faced by an online service pales beside those faced by other entities, such as television networks and film producers. The range of rights issues that can be encountered in those industries makes music look like child's play. I speak from experience as an entertainment lawyer who has worked in both those areas.

So what's your real point, rjwill? That you think the complexity of music licensing is a bad thing? What's your alternative - that we should agree to allow our songs to be used for free? That we should accept a lump sum with no accounting as to which songs get downloaded?

It may not have occurred to you that a service like IMS has half a million songs, each of which has different ownership and different authorship. Someone has to figure out how to distribute the royalties commensurate with usage. Under our agreement, the online service doesn't have to take on that job - they just give us usage data and we take care of the distribution. It's straightforward and, compared to what it would be in the absence of our involvement, relatively simple.

Or would a random distribution of randomly chosen sums of money be alright with you?

Every aspect of rights administration is more complex than P2P systems in which everything is given away and nobody gets paid for his or her work. That's simply a fact of life. But I'm inviting you to review this message, and my previous ones, and point out which aspect of our operations represent an impediment to the launch of IMS or any other online music service in Canada. Be precise, please.

Finally, has it not occurred to you that Apple may have its own reasons for not having opened up in Canada yet? Reasons that have nothing to do with the availability of the right to reproduce songs? Granted, Apple's strict no-comment policy makes it difficult to answer this question, but if you think about it, you'll begin to see that the issue of choosing which territory to expand to first just may involve issues other than those associated with securing rights.

At least you've stopped calling me a "dingbat", which is progress.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada
 
rjwill246 said:
It is amazing that you don't seem to see that the very thing you describe, the nightmare of, yes, quagmires and, you bet! inefficiencies, has NOTHING to do with Apple. I read and re-read what you have said and written and I can only stand in stunned amazement at your explanations. It's organizations like yours that are the heart and root of the problem. Why keep passing the buck back to Apple? They only offer to the public what is allowed them. It is the organization(s) that YOU represent that needs to turn over every stone and do everything at the highest speed to assist Apple to get the job done. You point out all the the things Apple has to do, over which it has no control, then lay the blame at their feet. Were that to be remotely true there wouldn't have been an iTMS in the US as it ought to be, by the far greater number of artists and companies to be dealt with, far harder to achieve than the CA counterpart.
Blaming Apple for not achieving what it so competently did in the US is well... hey, there's nothing one can say.

I do hope you guys actually do something useful about this. It would be unreal if OZ got its store up and running before Canada did!

Geez some people are way too one-eyed. There is obviously a bit of give and take here. I think David has explained his position very well. It seems like a complicated legal process, but the system they currently have in place seems quite efficient. The fact that other online stores are up and running because of this system suggests to me that perhaps part of the blame is with Apple.

BTW, have you EVER heard Apple mention iTunes Canada? No. Their focus is on EUROPE. They may have looked into Canada and seen how easy companies like David's have made it for them to set up the store and figured that they'd throw their resources instead at the tougher, but economically more lucrative market of the EU, and pull Canada together when iTunes takes off internationally.
 
lets get real here.

Firstly, I am SICK of the people who sanctimoniousy yap on about 'illegal' downloads.
Points to understand:

The jury is STILL out on downloads/file sharing - just because a bunch of greedy music biz execs have sued a few pathetic kids in the states, dont think its over.

For those of you who are complaining about the Apple Canada iTunes store - its LEGAL to file share in Canada.
That decision was handed down only two weeks ago (approx.)

When I buy a CD, I have the right to share it with whoever I like.

Why are so many of you so limp about this? Sharing isnt harming the music business - sales of CD's are UP! Check recent sales figures.

The latest news is that the music business pirates (the execs of the big five) want to put downloaded files up in price to as much as $2.00 per song!

Read this article: http://www.washingtonsquarenews.com/opinion/columnists/7370.html

Wake up! And stop talking about file sharing like its a bloody capital offense - you want crime? Look at what the USA is doing in Iraq. Now thats crime.

"But I want a G5 powerbook" I hear you whine. No., you need a bloody education on whats happening in the real world - which, with all due respect, this aint.

I enjoy Macrumors from time to time, but if you guys are going to start discussing REAL issues - is this the place?
Well, maybe it is......
 
J-Squire said:
Geez some people are way too one-eyed. There is obviously a bit of give and take here. I think David has explained his position very well. It seems like a complicated legal process, but the system they currently have in place seems quite efficient. The fact that other online stores are up and running because of this system suggests to me that perhaps part of the blame is with Apple.

BTW, have you EVER heard Apple mention iTunes Canada? No. Their focus is on EUROPE. They may have looked into Canada and seen how easy companies like David's have made it for them to set up the store and figured that they'd throw their resources instead at the tougher, but economically more lucrative market of the EU, and pull Canada together when iTunes takes off internationally.

I am with you all the way - I am very happy that Mr Basskin has given us a glimpse of what is going on. I am beginning to grasp the complexity of the task and I am grateful to him for sharing this with us all. Regarding the view Europe over Canada, well there are simply more consumers here, even if they can only open in one country alone. As such their approach going country by country as someone else mentioned in this forum makes all the sense in the world. It also gives them more publicity to come to Europe than to stay in North America, even if I feel sorry for the Canadians. You will surely get yours - My location is Switzerland thus my situation is even worse :D
 
J-Squire said:
What!!?? I don't think so. How many people do you know who buy an iPod and don't even know it can play music! That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I live outside the US, and have worked in an Apple Store, and I have never heard of anyone who has actually bought an iPod and not known it can play music. How would that happen? What kind of a sales person would recommend an iPod to someone who just wanted a portable hard drive? They're about twice the price! If they did recommend it, they would have to make it clear that it is also an awesome mp3 player in order to justify the expense.
The two people in question I was refering to were women who are not always concerned with techical features or whether a device plays music. Their respective husbands had purchased the iPods for them for gaphic design class. It is mostly guys who tend to be up with the play on portable music devices and what type of music they play rather than women.
 
Maxicek said:
First Post!

I for one will be using the iTMS. I don't find there is enough sources of greater than 192Kbps MP3s on the P2P networks. I find the bass on 128Kbps MP3 tracks to be a bit flabby when compared to AAC. Downloading from a website where I know the quality and availability is guaranteed will be refreshing and I don't have a problem with paying for it.

i'm with you. i've downloaded my share, whilst still buying cds i really like as well. the one thing the record companies seem to have completely wrong is this idea that downloads equate to lost sales. thats just BS frankly - I've downloaded stuff I probably wouldn't have bought - in some cases I have then gone on to buy it, in others not. so if anything, P2P of course is generating sales.

the other thing is that they completely ignore the fact that people, particularly the 16-35 age group are spending a lot more money on other things - dvds, games consoles, mobile phones etc.

anyway - back to ITMS - i'll gladly pay, if its reasonably priced - P2P is all very well, but its so hit and miss - whereas if I can click on a song, have it download in 30 seconds (our ISP has just given customers a free, permanent speed bump of 50%, whicj is nice), guaranteed to be of high quality, without stopping half way through, or being riddled with cracks or beeps, then I'll be delighted.

what they really could do with doing is providing artwork to download / print along with albums. actually - can you do this alreadt in ITMS? (i know you can always get it elsewhere, but it would be handy if it was right there, and the right size for the cd case). possibly even worth it if it was 99p / cents whatever, but that might just be me.

anyway, one delighted recent switcher to mac - 15" PB, getting the ipod in a few weeks, digi camera, wireless broadband and photo printing. a european ITMS would be the icing on my digital cake!

Iain
 
J-Squire said:
What!!?? I don't think so. How many people do you know who buy an iPod and don't even know it can play music! That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

it does sound pretty stupid. like, why are there headphones with my *portable storage device*.....

Iain
 
To defend Mr Basskin: If someone in the music biz is to be blamed for the slow evolution of online-music it is not organisations like CMRRA, but rather the record companies.

While rolling in money during most of the late 80's and early 90's they failed to react to the obvious changes in how people use computers and the Internet. When sales-figures finally declined too much to be ignored – in most part due to increasing competition from other products such as DVDs, games-consoles etc – they figured that a counter-attack was their best defence. This strategy, however, didn't get them anywhere, and only served to alienate their most loyal customers. At the same time, a wide-spread disgust for all things to do with computers and Internet spread within the music biz community.

Then Steve Jobs came along and demonstrated how it should have been done in the first place. Now the companies are finally working hard to manage the changes needed to get up-to-date – a process that should have begun 10 years ago!

All in all, I don't blame them for needing some time, but I DO blame them for being so late!
 
elgruga said:
Wake up! And stop talking about file sharing like its a bloody capital offense - you want crime? Look at what the USA is doing in Iraq. Now thats crime.

I enjoy Macrumors from time to time, but if you guys are going to start discussing REAL issues - is this the place?
Well, maybe it is......

Iraq a crime? Before the USA and OTHERS stepped in, yes. Atleast your el captain doesn't gas your neighborhood and put you all in mass graves.

OTS, I don't see anything wrong with filesharing either but I don't partake in it anymore.
 
crees! said:
Iraq a crime? Before the USA and OTHERS stepped in, yes. Atleast your el captain doesn't gas your neighborhood and put you all in mass graves.

OTS, I don't see anything wrong with filesharing either but I don't partake in it anymore.

May I suggest that this is not the time or place to be discussing political matters. Many people who frequent these boards have strong opinions, both positive and negative about US involvement in iraq, however most of us choose to discuss the matter at hand, namely the potential good news that itms is coming to europe soon. I for one would be very pleased to see it online in europe although I feel is will be something of a niche market. With pricing likely to be around 99pence per song ( similar to cd costs) my guess is many people will only use it for the odd song they can't get on cd or an album which maybe only has a couple of decent tracks on it.
 
captain kirk said:
May I suggest that this is not the time or place to be discussing political matters. Many people who frequent these boards have strong opinions, both positive and negative about US involvement in iraq, however most of us choose to discuss the matter at hand, namely the potential good news that itms is coming to europe soon.
On the other hand, if you DO want to discuss this much more important issue, come over to the Political and War Discussions Forum... :)
 
How much will it cost ?

Hi,

When Itunes Europe starts this year anybody got an idear how many euroes it will cost to download a song ?

/Fred
 
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