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Jeff Harrell

macrumors regular
Apr 19, 2003
170
0
Re: Re: Playing Protected AAC files

Originally posted by rockman2023
Definetly off topic, but I saw something on TechTV's TechLive a short while back, where it was mentioned that some guys had transfered 2-6GB from the USA to Europe in about 19 sec!!!

Yeah, I heard about that. In truth, that test wasn't really that impressive. I used to work with SGI, and I knew some folks who worked on a technology called GSN. It's a computer-to-computer network technology kinda like Ethernet, but different in some important ways. It's 6400 megabits per second.

They did a test one time for the government-- most of their work was for The Customer, if you know what I mean-- where they leased a dark fibre loop and put one big SGI supercomputer at one end (in Reston, VA) and another on the other end (in Mt. View, California), and ran GSN between them. They pushed something like 800 MB per second through that pipe for days. Instead of 2.6 GB in 19 seconds, that would be 15.2 GB in 19 seconds.

The really cool part of the test though had to do with latency. The two machines were synched to GPS time, so they were able to measure the delay in transmission between Reston and Mt. View. In other words, if you take out fibre optic repeaters and whatnot, the limiting factor in the latency experienced by that system was the speed of light. Which is pretty damn cool, if you ask me.

Topic? What topic? :rolleyes:
 

Doctor Q

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 19, 2002
39,812
7,562
Los Angeles
Re: Re: Playing Protected AAC files

Originally posted by rockman2023
Definetly off topic, but I saw something on TechTV's TechLive a short while back, where it was mentioned that some guys had transfered 2-6GB from the USA to Europe in about 19 sec!!!
There was a recent Caltech breakthrough too. 8609 Mbps.
 

antichrist

macrumors newbie
May 1, 2003
1
0
Who's stealing?

When the bloated record companies stop paying innapropriate salaries and bonuses to half-assed musicians like Jennifer Lopez, Eminem and Cocoa Puffs, then we should see prices of CD's dramatically reduced. 18.99 for Jello? **** that, I'll continue to steal, guilt free. I have over 20,000 mp3's, if I paid 99 cents for half of them, I would have to give up my crack habit.

Itunes4 sucks too, you can't rip a CD at 48K sample any longer.

Don't depend on my 99 cents Steve. I don't even pay for your ****ty software.:mad:
 

Doctor Q

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 19, 2002
39,812
7,562
Los Angeles
Welcome to MacRumors.

I'm no fan of the record companies, but they pay musicians what it takes to get them under contract, and they won't do it if they can't make money at it. I'm not much of an Eminem fan, but some people must be. If people want to buy "Roseanne Barr sings the Star Spangled Banner", then that's what a record label will sell.

Also, it seems to me that this week, with the Apple announcement, was the first time in a long time that the record companies showed signs of real intelligence.

If you steal the music you like, the rest of us end up paying more to get it legally. Just out of curiosity, antichrist, what price would you be willing to pay without giving up your crack habit? If legal downloaded music was, say, 25 cents a song, would you change your mind?
 

Jeff Harrell

macrumors regular
Apr 19, 2003
170
0
Re: Who's stealing?

Originally posted by antichrist
Itunes4 sucks too, you can't rip a CD at 48K sample any longer.

Actually, I've been told by some folks whose opinions I trust that ripping a CD at 48 kHz will produce a file that sounds certainly no better, and quite possibly worse, than the original. That's because a CD uses 44.1 kHz. So you'll end up with some quite a lot of samples that are averages of two source samples. The net result might not be something you can hear, but it certainly won't help anything.

So you shouldn't rip CD's at 48 kHz anyway.

Now, if we were talking about ripping DAT's, or digitally recorded AIFF's, that might be something else. But CD's? No.

Then again, it seems fairly clear that you're just trolling the board to badmouth Apple and their products, so what's the point of correcting your misaprehension on this topic?
 

cbond

macrumors newbie
Apr 27, 2003
9
0
Olympia, Washington.
Re: Re: Who's stealing?

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
Then again, it seems fairly clear that you're just trolling the board to badmouth Apple and their products, so what's the point of correcting your misaprehension on this topic?

Because Mac users, young and old, ALL CARE and WANT TO HELP OTHERS OUT! :) :D :cool:

No envy or hopelessness or whatever on this side of the fence, baby!

(Note: I *am* generalizing. But would that really be a crime? Come on!) :)
 

bulletinwriter

macrumors newbie
May 1, 2003
1
0
Mp3 straight to AAC?

Hi everyone. Could a few of you please address my following issue:

I have about 20 GB worth of MP3s, all taken from the original CDs that I bought over the years, and all put into MP3 via iTunes, thus making all legal (just some info for all you ethical ones out there.)

Well there is no way in HELL that I would ever go through the proccess of putting all of those CDs into AAC as I did into MP3, plus I sold a majority of the CDs after putting them onto my machine.

I've tested converting a few of my MP3s (all of which are at 192) to AAC (at 128) and I hear absolutely no loss of quality, maybe some improvement.

My question is some one you have said that going from MP3 to AAC like this takes away from the sound quality. Is this a fact, opinions, too small to notice, better quality in AAC??

What do you all think? I'd love to switch to AAC, but I want to keep my music at the high sound quality that it is now. Hey, thanks alot everyone.
 

Jeff Harrell

macrumors regular
Apr 19, 2003
170
0
Re: Mp3 straight to AAC?

Originally posted by bulletinwriter
My question is some one you have said that going from MP3 to AAC like this takes away from the sound quality. Is this a fact, opinions, too small to notice, better quality in AAC??

I just did a really unscientific and informal test. I took an MP3 that I really like and converted it to AAC and listened.

The MP3 is "Take Five" by the Dave Brubeck Quartet. It's encoded at a whopping 320 kbps from the CD. Yeah, I know, 320 kbps is nuts. I encoded this one in the old days when I was first into MP3's. I can't remember what I used to encode it. It might have been a very old version of Audion.

I converted it to 128 kbps AAC using iTunes's "Convert to AAC" item under the Advanced menu.

To test them, I opened them both in QuickTime Player and used the "Play All Movies" item. (That might only be availble if you have QuickTime Pro.) I toggled back and forth to hear the difference.

They both sounded acceptable. There was a difference, but it wasn't an objectionable one. I couldn't say that one sounded "better" than the other, just that they sounded VERY SLIGHTLY different from each other. If I listened for it really, really closely, I could hear a slight something during Morello's drum solo in the middle. But we're talking really subtle stuff here, folks.

Then I reached for my nearest CD, which happened to be Sarah McLachlan's "Surfacing." I ripped the first track, "Building a Mystery" to MP3 at 192 kbps with iTunes, then converted the MP3 to 128 kbps AAC and did the QuickTime Player test. I couldn't really tell a difference.

Then I ripped the same track to 128 kbps MP3 and converted THAT file to 128 kbps, and tested again. The resulting MP3 and AAC both sounded like chisled SPAM to my ears, but neither one sounded worse than the other. Of course, this was strictly an academic test, because there's no reason at all to convert a 128 kbps MP3 to 128 kbps AAC. You won't save any disk space.

Finally, I converted an MP3 that was encoded with VBR at an aggregate bit rate of 94 kbps (that's not a typo). It was "Bad Stone" by the Crystal Method. The resulting AAC sounded just like the MP3 to my ears. Of course, in this instance the AAC was LARGER than the MP3, so that's a degenerate case.

So my own personal results: converting MP3's that were encoded at rates higher than 128 kbps will probably result in AAC's that sound no worse (to my ears) than the MP3's did. If you want to free up 33% of the disc space occupied by your music library by converting your 192 kbps MP3's to 128 kbps M4A's, I'd say you'd probably be okay. But since we're talking about music that you don't have CD's for any more (that's illegal, by the way, just in case you didn't know that already) you'd probably be wisest to back up your MP3's somehow. Burn them to half a dozen DVD's as files-- not as audio-- before you do the conversion. That way you'll always have a copy to fall back to if something goes horribly wrong.

And finally, my last, best piece of advice: try it for yourself, and decide what you think by listening to the resulting files. You might find that the second-generation AAC's are unlistenable, or you might find that they're just dandy. It's all subjective.
 

Jeff Harrell

macrumors regular
Apr 19, 2003
170
0
Okay, I have more to say on the whole MP3->AAC thing. I've just done some more conversions, most recently "Clock" by Coldplay which began its life as a 192 kbps MP3 and met its destiny as a 128 kbps AAC.

I listened REALLY closely to this one, and I found something very strange. Every time I thought I heard distortion or an artifact in the AAC, I said "A-ha!" (out loud at first, until later when my girlfriend came in and asked me what all the ruckuss was about, at which point I began the inner monologue) and toggled over to the MP3 and found THE EXACT SAME distortion or artifact THERE.

This happened to me at around 1:00 and again at around 3:00, if you're playing along at home.

So the main fault with the second-generation AAC's, that I can hear, is that they TOO ACCURATELY reproduce the flaws of the original MP3's.

There will be more tests and more opinions in the future. But for right now, I vote convert. Take any MP3's in your collection of 192 kbps or greater, back 'em up to DVD or whatever you have handy (I'm using a spare hard drive for this until I take the time to burn some discs), and convert 'em. Nothing to lose but time.
 

keltorsori

macrumors regular
Jul 24, 2002
181
7
Originally posted by Doctor Q
I understand the letter of the law: you can authorize up to three Macs. I'd like to know the intent too.

Does Apple intend that my authorized Macs be three semi-permanent Macs in my household, used by my family (or maybe my personal Macs in three locations)? Or is it perfectly fine for me to share with as many friends on as many Macs as I like as long as I only have three authorizations active at any given time? By adding and removing authorizations constantly (I wonder if you can AppleScript this?), I could use my music on whichever Mac I was close to, even if I had more than 3 of them.

A simpler case: Suppose my two friends and I have exactly the same musical taste. Is it OK with Apple and the music publishers who agreed to Apple's contracts if my friends and I share one Apple ID and all of the music we buy, on our three separate home computers?

The first time you log in with your Apple ID in iTunes, the first screen you get to, at the bottom says: "The music you buy is for your personal use only."
So I guess that settles that question. :)
No sharing with friends, at least no Apple-sanctioned sharing with friends
 

Doctor Q

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 19, 2002
39,812
7,562
Los Angeles
Originally posted by keltorsori
The first time you log in with your Apple ID in iTunes, the first screen you get to, at the bottom says: "The music you buy is for your personal use only."
So I guess that settles that question. :)
No sharing with friends, at least no Apple-sanctioned sharing with friends
Then that's the rule we should all follow.

---

I'll keep probing the depths of your opinions with other ethics questions:

Suppose you purchase and download a song and listen to it yourself on your own Mac. So far so good. Now you burn it to CD, rip it back to your Mac, and still use it only for personal use. As we've learned, you might lose some sound quality but it works and it removes the DRM. If you only play the resulting song on your own Mac, people seem to be saying that you are still within your rights.

Would it then be OK to move the resulting file (say an MP3 version) to your Windows PC or non-Apple MP3 player and play it there, still for personal use on a single computer or device?

Now suppose you then throw away both the downloaded and ripped versions and replace them with a new version ripped from a friend's copy of the original CD. You can pick a high bitrate and get a better quality sound file, but you're still going to use only a single copy and only on your own computer. Still OK?

In each case, you are using exactly one copy and you paid for exactly one copy.

The restrictions in place, and the words used to describe them, seem to be intended to limit you to personal use of the music, not to control or limit the quality of sound you get or where you play it. Are the scenarios I describe still playing fair with the intent? If not, why not?
 

Ugg

macrumors 68000
Apr 7, 2003
1,992
16
Penryn
Originally posted by Doctor Q
Then that's the rule we should all follow.

---

I'll keep probing the depths of your opinions with other ethics questions:

Are the scenarios I describe still playing fair with the intent? If not, why not?

I'm no attorney but I would think that as long as you kept the music for your own personal use and didn't sell or trade it then no problem. I would also think that if you had burned a cd and dumped the files from iTunes, then it would be perfectly legal to sell the cd. Just like it is perfectly legal to sell a book or video tape that you have legally puchased.
 

Jeff Harrell

macrumors regular
Apr 19, 2003
170
0
Originally posted by Doctor Q
Would it then be OK to move the resulting file (say an MP3 version) to your Windows PC or non-Apple MP3 player and play it there, still for personal use on a single computer or device?

I think so. I think it would be hard to argue that such a use of your legally acquired copy is unfair or unreasonable.

Now suppose you then throw away both the downloaded and ripped versions and replace them with a new version ripped from a friend's copy of the original CD.

Let's boil this question down to something simpler. Let's say you buy a copy of CD X, and so does your friend. At some point in the future, you make a copy of your friend's CD X. (Why? That's not important right now. Just go with me for sake of argument.) Is that act legal? Technically, no. Practically, it's highly unlikely that anybody would object to it.

The restrictions in place, and the words used to describe them, seem to be intended to limit you to personal use of the music, not to control or limit the quality of sound you get or where you play it.

Yes, that's pretty much it. Once you've bought a piece of music, be it a CD or an M4P, you can do pretty much whatever you want with that music, as long as you're the only person involved.

That's the spirit of the law. The letter of the law is necessarily more complex.
 

Dave Marsh

macrumors regular
Jul 23, 2002
210
0
Sacramento, CA
quote:
Now suppose you then throw away both the downloaded and ripped versions and replace them with a new version ripped from a friend's copy of the original CD.


I don't think this would be ethical or legal. In this case you wouldn't be using music you had purchased. You'd be using someone else's. It doesn't matter that you at one time purchased the music legally. If your purchased copy is gone, it's gone.
 

Doctor Q

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 19, 2002
39,812
7,562
Los Angeles
That's an interesting point, Dave.

It could also be that the end result was justifiable (because only the form of media changed, not the fact that you have a copy of a song), but that the means used (copying a borrowed CD) was a violation at the time you made the copy.

The laws involved are probably not the same, but as a thought experiment you can consider how it would work with books, instead of music, if photocopying was free. Suppose you buy a book, photocopy it, and then throw out the original book. Did you violate the copyright by copying it? Or is it acceptable because you ended up with one legal copy for personal purposes, which is what you started with?
 

Dave Marsh

macrumors regular
Jul 23, 2002
210
0
Sacramento, CA
Photocopying Book

While I suspect the copyright owner probably would consider it illegal to photocopy even your own purchased book, this scenario doesn't bother me a bit since the copy wasn't given/sold to anyone. Now, even though I'm sure the ethics police would say that knowingly violating the copyright in this manner would always be wrong, I'd sleep just fine. To my mind, if this isn't fair use, it should be. Neither the owner of the copyright, nor any third party was materially affected in any way.
 

Jeff Harrell

macrumors regular
Apr 19, 2003
170
0
Re: Photocopying Book

Originally posted by Dave Marsh
Now, even though I'm sure the ethics police would say that knowingly violating the copyright in this manner would always be wrong, I'd sleep just fine.

Hmm. Let me just pin on my Ethics Police Junior G-Man Badge here (four Captain Crunch box tops, $2.95 for shipping and handling, and four to six weeks of interminable waiting by the mailbox).

Copyright provides legal protection to an author's exclusive right to distribute his works. (In the real works, distribution is almost always handled by a delegate, a publisher or some such, but that individual or company is merely acting with the written permission of the author.) So any act that infringes on the author's exclusive right to distribute is wrong.

(Remember, we're talking ETHICALLY here, not LEGALLY. The two are mostly congruent, but not completely.)

If your friend buys a copy of "Gravity's Rainbow" and you copy it using your handy Xerox machine, you have distributed a copy of the book to yourself. That infringes on the author's exclusive right to distribute the book. So your action is unethical.

If you buy a copy of Gravity's Rainbow and then lose it or something, then copy your friend's copy, that's not really an infringement. You already bought the book. The author already distributed it to you. The fact that you subsequently make a copy of somebody else's book for yourself doesn't change this fact.

Let's speak more specifically. I have a CD, "Reel Life" by Trout Fishing in America. It has a scratch on it. That scratch makes it impossible for any CD player to play the track entitled "Ode to Big Blue." (It's a Gordon Lightfoot cover. Frankly, I like the Trouts' version better than the original.) If I could find a high-bit-rate MP3 of that song on-line, I would probably download it. It would be illegal to do so, but I personally wouldn't have any ethical problem with the act itself, because my intent is to regain access to a song that I can't currently listen to because of a damaged CD.

(I can't find it, and the Music Store doesn't yet sell Trout music, so the whole question is moot. Which makes it a GREAT example. :) )

However, there's another question, a larger question. Given that in these two examples (hypothetical and concrete) the act of copying is illegal but not unethical, there is still the ethical question of whether it is okay to do something that is illegal.

Our society is based on universal respect for the law. We have punishments that are intended to deter potential criminals from acting in defiance of the law, but those deterrences alone are insufficient to maintain an orderly, prosperous society. In order for a free society to work, people must obey the law not because they fear punishment, but simply because they respect the law. Without respect for the law, society would disintegrate into an adversarial environment where the people would constantly be trying to find new ways to commit crimes without being caught, and in turn our justice agencies would be forced to extend their powers in order to deal with the concerted efforts of the criminals. It'd be an ever-escalating arms race, and in the long run the net result would either be anarchy, if the criminals succeed in running circles around the police, or totalitarianism, if the police succeed in rounding up all the criminals. Either way, the victim is our free society.

(If you'll notice, this is precisely the present situation between those who wish to steal music and those who wish it not to be stolen. On the one side we have the pirates, and on the other we have the publishers and the white-hat security experts. Each side is constantly trying to surpass the other, and as a result a huge amount of money and time and effort is being wasted.)

So: for the good of society, we must respect the laws. I say that in the most abstract sense; it's not a hard-and-fast thing. Judgments must be made based on circumstances.

For instance, if "Ode to Big Blue" were available on the iTunes Music Store, I would buy it rather than pirating it. I would do so for several reasons, not the least of which is that it would be faster and easier, but neither would the least of which be that I wish to act within the law solely for the sake of the law itself.

On the other hand, I am not rushing out to buy another copy of "Reel Life." I don't have money to burn (who does these days?) and spending $16 to replace a CD that is perfectly fine but for a scratch on one track seems unreasonable to me.

I think the Music Store is a step in the right direction: make it easy, convenient, fast, and cheap for people to acquire music on impulse legally. But I don't think that by itself is going to solve our piracy problem. Part of our problem is cultural. We need to cultivate a culture of respect for intellectual property, and for the law. That's not an especially difficult problem to solve; it just takes time. We went from a country where black people had to sit at the back of the bus to a country where the third highest office in our land is held by a black man in about fifty years. We've still got a ways to go, but we've made astounding progress in about two generations. That's going to be our solution to the piracy problem, too, I think.

Hmm. As I go back and re-read the previous paragraph, I get the feeling that it might be somewhat inflamatory. But I think the point is valid. I think if we look at people who pirate music like people who suffer from race prejudice and educate them rather than either (1) aggressively criminalizing them, or (2) accepting them without challenge or question, then we'll be able to solve the problem of piracy in our lifetime. I hope.
 

Ugg

macrumors 68000
Apr 7, 2003
1,992
16
Penryn
The use of the word piracy when it comes to P2P networks has always intrigued me. Pirates, while thieves, mostly exist due to inequal distribution of a society's resources. It would be hard to claim that someone with a computer in today's world is suffering from inequal distribution but I do think that it is part of the problem. It is also a reaction to the corporatizaion of the music business. How many people at the top listen to the music that their company distributes? Where is the connection between artist and CEO? or for that matter CEO and customer?

The other aspect of this is that technology continues to outpace our ability to adjust morally. Whether it be stem cell research, music and video piracy, etc.

The Music Store is the best thing ever to happen to the music industry in the last 5 years. I've bought 3 albums already and am slowly replacing mp3s with AACs as they become available. I'm of a different generation though and it remains to be seen whether the under 30s will embrace it as well.

The internet has the ability to revolutionize the way we interract with the world. The music industry has totally and utterly failed to take advantage of this technology. They and the artists are suffering as a result.

The more I read about digital vs analog recordings the more I realize that it is a matter of taste not quality. What is the average age of sound engineers and producers? Could it be a generational reluctance to embrace the digital world and the internet that is causing a lot of the problems?
 

Doctor Q

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 19, 2002
39,812
7,562
Los Angeles
Re: Re: Photocopying Book

You guys really met my challenge to think these issues through. Jeff, your description is insightful and very well written. I agree with you 100% (rounded off from 99.52%), but I'm not implying that yours was the one and only interpretation and that these issues are settled. Anyone else concerned with the ethics issues, please chime in.
Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
Part of our problem is cultural. We need to cultivate a culture of respect for intellectual property, and for the law. That's not an especially difficult problem to solve; it just takes time.
Excellent point. A couple decades ago, people would tell Polish jokes or make fun, in a mean way, of gays, women, or people in other groups, without a second thought; someone might make loud gay-bashing comments on the subway, while strangers who didn't approve fumed but kept quiet. Now most people would think twice before doing these things, not because law enforcement is looking, but because society doesn't approve. Ethnic jokes haven't gone away, but people tend to show that they mean no harm when telling them, or they tell them privately rather than publicly.

When taking music without paying for it will lessen your status in the eyes of your peers, it will go from a blatant and pervasive habit to an underground one (done but not mentioned and not boasted about), and then to low enough levels that the music business can "tolerate" it, akin to theft from record stores.

Let me just pin on my Ethics Police Junior G-Man Badge here (four Captain Crunch box tops, $2.95 for shipping and handling, and four to six weeks of interminable waiting by the mailbox).
A challenge to all: Who knows the connection between Captain Crunch and Apple? I'll post the answer later if nobody else does.
 

Jeff Harrell

macrumors regular
Apr 19, 2003
170
0
Originally posted by Ugg
The use of the word piracy when it comes to P2P networks has always intrigued me.

Me, too, but I suspect in a different way from the way you're intrigued. I'm struck by the fact that "piracy" is, itself, a euphemism. My dictionary (yes, I'm using Sherlock for this) defines piracy as being robbery on the high seas, which strikes me as an odd term to co-opt for use in this context. I'm not sure where "piracy" in the sense of intellectual property theft came from, but it seems evident to me (mister blindingly obvious over here) that "piracy" is itself a euphemism for the more accurate term: theft.

And yet today we have people who are actually arguing that "piracy" is an inappropriate term, what with the connotations of violence and all that, and that the act should even-more-euphemistically be called "copyright infringement."

This reminds me of the old George Carlin bit about euphemisms. He talked about the term "shell shock." In World War I, you suffered from "shell shock." By World War II "shell shock" had given way to "battle fatigue." When you came home from World War II, you had "battle fatigue." By the time of Vietnam, "battle fatigue" had become "post traumatic stress disorder." Two syllables had become eight.

It's exactly the same thing. "Theft" became "piracy" which is becoming "copyright infringement." But it's all the same thing. It's stealing.

The other aspect of this is that technology continues to outpace our ability to adjust morally. Whether it be stem cell research, music and video piracy, etc.

No offense, but I have a very hard time putting petty theft on the same plane as questions of life and death. I see both sides of the stem cell argument. (I'm not going to get into it here. I'm just gonna describe the argument to point out how different it is from music theft.) On the one hand, we have the potential to save many lives. On the other hand, we have the question of whether it's okay to sacrifice embryos for any purpose. This is serious stuff about the nature of life itself.

Stealing music, on the other hand, is really cut-and-dried by comparison. When you take something that's not yours without the consent of the owner, you're stealing. If the owner offers to sell it to you and you decide not to buy it but rather to take it for free, you're stealing. I really don't see it as a question of technology outpacing morality; I think morality (and more specifically ethics) tells us exactly what to do in this situation already: don't steal. Stealing is bad and wrong. It doesn't matter if you start with the Ten Commandments or Adam Smith, the conclusion is the same.

The problem is not that technology has outpaced our society. The problem is, in my opinion, that technology has outpaced our ability to teach moral values to our children. Who does most of the music stealing? The under-21 crowd. College kids who have unlimited broadband access in their dorm rooms. (That was just a pipe dream when I was in college a mere decade ago.) Why do they do it? Because we have failed, collectively, as a society, to teach them that it's wrong to do so. It's not a problem of morality; it's not a conundrum. It's a simple problem of applying the moral rules we already have to a new situation.

Or so I see it, anyway.

The internet has the ability to revolutionize the way we interract with the world. The music industry has totally and utterly failed to take advantage of this technology. They and the artists are suffering as a result.

I have a serious problem with trying to place the responsibility for this on the music industry. I'd like to buy a Land Rover for $13.50 (that being what I have in my pocket right now), but they are totally and utterly refusing to sell it to me. They refuse to take my money! How absurd is that!? So I'm just gonna go sneak onto the lot and steal one. It's really their own fault, because I was willing to pay, just not at the price they were asking. They're suffering as a result of their own greed.

See how silly that whole argument sounds? The whole "they're too greedy" (or the closely related "they're too dumb") argument never sat well with me. Even if these things are all true, it still fails to justify theft in my mind.

Could it be a generational reluctance to embrace the digital world and the internet that is causing a lot of the problems?

I think it's the mob mentality among the segment of society that commits these acts of theft that's causing the problem. Think of it this way. Under ordinary circumstances, a normal person would never consider throwing a brick through a window and stealing a TV. But in a riot, when everybody around is doing just that, the learned compulsion toward lawfulness can disappear. We've seen it happen a million times. This is basically the same situation. First, the act of stealing music is an easy and solitary thing. It requires a cognitive leap to associate clicking the mouse button with theft. Because a person is interacting with a computer and not with another person, the learned inhibitions are automatically surpressed. (Ever been flamed in an email? Ever flamed someone yourself? It's a lot easier to be an ass in writing than it is face-to-face. Same thing here. It's easier to be a computer thief than an ordinary thief because of the degree of abstractness surrounding the whole act.) Compound this with the "everybody is doing it" perception, and you have the world's biggest, most diverse, slowest looter riot on your hands.

Gee whiz. I am one long-winded son of a gun, aren't I?
 

cbond

macrumors newbie
Apr 27, 2003
9
0
Olympia, Washington.
Re: Re: Re: Photocopying Book

Originally posted by Doctor Q
A challenge to all: Who knows the connection between Captain Crunch and Apple? I'll post the answer later if nobody else does.

Well, the connection between Captain Crunch and Apple is that (at one time, at least) "piracy" of a different kind. This is where blue boxes were to be used with pay phones to make free calls and both(?) Captain Crunch (a celebrated "hacker" aka Jon Drapper(?)) and the two Steves of the very, very, very early days of Apple Computer (or a few years before just such a partnership had started between the two Steves) and had been using them themselves or at least creating and selling them.

That particular reminder strikes me as growth (which we all go through) which I see in Steve Jobs. One cannot continue to go through life stealing. One has to have respect for the system, to just pay the fee of a phone call or a file of an album. At one point, he didn't care about giving a dime to ma bell. But through the years, he has gained maturity.

I saw the quicktime feed of his latest iTunes announcement at least a week ago. It seems as if he has had much discussion through the past few years with recording executives to build a business model that would suit both the computer and recording industry. And, in the world of post-Napster, Steve had to do something to rescue two different worlds of America at once. They were, in effect, destroying each other...

But now, this just reaffirms my position he's a miracle worker. It's like, he can really make anything work. I'm just glad he was able to do so. I can't wait for January for the next breakthrough announcement. A tablet Macintosh, perhaps? :)

Go Steve, go! :D

(I also remember that Bill Gates was angered when the two Steves were using computer code for their own purposes. But they were like, "no, we like what we do here and we're not harming anyone." Is this true?)
 

Doctor Q

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 19, 2002
39,812
7,562
Los Angeles
Correct, cbond. You are new around here (unless you've been lurking for a while), yet you win the grand prize: $1,000,000 in cash, a new sports car, a trip around the world for two, and 51% ownership of Apple! (I'm sure arn, who runs MacRumors, will explain how to collect your prize.)

Here's a mini-bio of John T. Draper, alias Captain Crunch, the pal of the Steves who got his nickname from the cereal box prize toy whistle that could fool the phone company's switching system.

Given Steve and Steve's history as phone phreaks, it's ironic that Apple is leading the world to an alternative to the music-hacker mentality.
 

cbond

macrumors newbie
Apr 27, 2003
9
0
Olympia, Washington.
Originally posted by Doctor Q
Correct, cbond. You are new around here (unless you've been lurking for a while),

Well, actually I'm a die-hard fan of history, computers, Apple (I loved growing up with the ][e, although getting magazines in the mail every month with BASIC programs inside, sometimes they were less than stellar. Needless to say, I was most impressed with programs what went into graphics mode on the ][e, which wasn't very often), and somehow, that's where I'm at today... plus or minus about 15 or 20 years... :D

The source of Bill getting angry at Steve for using his code for illegal/immoral/unethical/arrogant purposes, for example, was... oddly enough... the History Channel.

It had occured to me that when I was writing about blue boxes a few hours ago, the Steves also had raised the ire of not only ma bell (if ma bell was on to them at all) but also Bill Gates.

I have just looked quickly through Google and I found nothing about Bill Gates and the Steves on piracy... or something somewhat related to piracy. That doesn't mean I'm giving up. I'm just taking a break. ;)
 
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