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iTunes offering Nazi Songs

kloibus said:
How can this be happening?
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If you're not from the US, perhaps you haven't heard of the "First Amendment" which protects free speech here? Are Nazi songs distasteful? Of course. But they're not illegal (unless you live in Germany). Besides, these songs would be of historical interest to students studying WWII.

kloibus said:
still, earning $$$ with propaganda is not the best way...
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When you open up your own music store, you can choose what content you want to sell and what the "best way" is for you.
 
quadG5guy said:
If you're not from the US, perhaps you haven't heard of the "First Amendment" which protects free speech here? Are Nazi songs distasteful? Of course. But they're not illegal (unless you live in Germany). Besides, these songs would be of historical interest to students studying WWII.

When you open up your own music store, you can choose what content you want to sell and what the "best way" is for you.
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That's all well and good to say, unless (1) you consider the evident hypocrisy when contrasting this example to how Apple runs their App Store, and (2) the fact that it's lazy and illogical to dismiss a complaint by suggesting that the person voicing it should try to do a better job than the target of the complaint, especially when said target provides a service, since, if it were so easy for members of the general public to provide it themselves, they wouldn't seek out the service in the first place.

Example:

"My doctor sucks."
"Well, then you should just go to medical school and open up your own clinic, and you can be the best doctor in town."
"..."

On second thought, people have likened Apple's App Store policies to fascism, so maybe having Nazi songs on iTunes is appropriate after all.
 
El Cabong said:
That's all well and good to say, unless (1) you consider the evident hypocrisy when contrasting this example to how Apple runs their App Store, and (2) the fact that it's lazy and illogical to dismiss a complaint by suggesting that the person voicing it should try to do a better job than the target of the complaint, especially when said target provides a service, since, if it were so easy for members of the general public to provide it themselves, they wouldn't seek out the service in the first place.

Example:

"My doctor sucks."
"Well, then you should just go to medical school and open up your own clinic, and you can be the best doctor in town."
"..."

On second thought, people have likened Apple's App Store policies to fascism, so maybe having Nazi songs on iTunes is appropriate after all.
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1. Agree with you on the way Apple runs their app store, seemingly denying apps at random. But the music store is not the app store.

2. lazy and illogical? Your perspective is flawed, I'm afraid. The Doctor analogy you've provided is exactly why a Capitalist society is so successful - because entrepreneurial individuals do exactly what you have stated - they notice that "X" product or service "sucks", and so they go and start their own. This holds even more true today in the internet age, where unlike becoming a doctor, which requires many years of medical school, literally *anyone* can open up a web site and perform eCommerce. Look at Twitter for example, a company started just in 2006 - barely 3 years old now - has an estimated market cap of US $1 Billion. That's more than the GDP of many small countries. I suppose you think the founders of Twitter are "lazy and illogical" as well? :rolleyes:
 
quadG5guy said:
1. Agree with you on the way Apple runs their app store, seemingly denying apps at random. But the music store is not the app store.

2. lazy and illogical? Your perspective is flawed, I'm afraid. [...]:
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(1) ...and yet, they're run by the same company.

(2) You missed the point. You dismissed someone's comment by saying that the person should simply start his/her own company instead of complaining, instead of putting forth a more reasoned argument. Even if it were easy to compete with Apple on the music distribution front, it's not feasible for the average person to do, as having the time, manpower, ingenuity, and capital to start a successful business is not something that's easily had. Music distribution isn't free, you know, and not everyone wants to spend the money, time, and effort to start a business just because they see another company engaging in an activity with which they disagree, especially since doing so will not necessarily stop that company from engaging in that activity.

So, to reiterate, your original (not to mention your followup) argument is lazy and illogical. Start your own music site that's bigger than iTunes to prove me wrong.
 
We have some key components that makes our country run such as freedom of speech, the right to vote (later for women and African-Americans and other minorities), separation of church and state, and many others. It's hard for students in law school to agree with the intent of the founding fathers. And the arguments are often among liberal law students vs. other liberal law students on just how far freedom of speech can go.

Would the founding fathers want us to have Uzis as personal weapons, nazi songs and gansta rap, see people up in arms with a basically harmless nativity scene on a city hall lawn, or let an American Communist party run a candidate?

I will mention this again, but there were arguments as to the fine points of what would make our country run with writings such as the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers.

Where I would find nazi music distasteful and some gansta rap distasteful, it's a total mistake when a person of an older generation thinks the Clash and Ramones are nazis or that The Black Eyed Peas are a dangerous gansta rap influence on our children.

Music has come so far to the point that black metal has a new genre called anti-black metal which is the black metal music format but with Christian lyrics. This alone shows not all black metal bands want to burn down churches in Norway.

There isn't an automatic disintegration of society if nazi songs are banned. But what if a very right wing government (ala Pat Robertson) takes over one day and bans music with a left wing message? What if freedom of speech is curtailed and the Constitution is re-interpreted and sections cherry picked as the new GOP platform (of course where they are in concert) \

And let's say Apple wants to have tons of easily available porn via their iPhone partner AT&T? So what? Some years ago when 60 minutes was looking at porn in America, it wasn't Hugh Hefner or Larry Flynt who distributed the most porn online, but our very own squeaky clean AT&T. At the time, some 40% percent of distribution and ownership of porn online was through the telecommunications giant. And Mr. Larry Flynt wasn't off the hook because of that according to family rights activists as 20/20 showed the first Hustler/Larry Flynt store. Where does freedom of speech begin and end.

The safe bet is to let all voices be heard. Even right wing political hopeful (1992) Colin Powell said the radical black voices of the far left, while distasteful to him, we all a part of a dialogue which helped knock down barriers, barriers which eventually let him pass and go all the way to become a 4 star general (and of course, later Secretary of State).
 
El Cabong said:
(1) ...and yet, they're run by the same company.
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You'd be surprised. With any large corporation, there are separate management structures to run the individual business units, and there usually is surprisingly little communication between them. Toyota makes cars. Toyota also makes sewing machines. Choosing to buy (or not to buy) a Toyota car based on your experience with Toyota sewing machines is silly, as there is zero collaboration between the two business units.

Music vs. Telephone software is no different than cars vs. sewing machines.

El Cabong said:
(2) You missed the point. You dismissed someone's comment by saying that the person should simply start his/her own company instead of complaining, instead of putting forth a more reasoned argument. Even if it were easy to compete with Apple on the music distribution front, it's not feasible for the average person to do, as having the time, manpower, ingenuity, and capital to start a successful business is not something that's easily had. Music distribution isn't free, you know, and not everyone wants to spend the money, time, and effort to start a business just because they see another company engaging in an activity with which they disagree, especially since doing so will not necessarily stop that company from engaging in that activity.

So, to reiterate, your original (not to mention your followup) argument is lazy and illogical. Start your own music site that's bigger than iTunes to prove me wrong.
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Let me get this straight - I recommended that the OP start his own online music store since he was so dissatisfied with iTunes. You said that was a lazy and illogical argument to make, and now your argument hinges on telling *me* to start my own music store? :confused:

I think maybe you are agreeing with me, but just haven't realized it yet. ;)
 
quadG5guy said:
You'd be surprised. With any large corporation, there are separate management structures to run the individual business units [...]

Let me get this straight - I recommended that the OP start his own online music store since he was so dissatisfied with iTunes. You said that was a lazy and illogical argument to make, and now your argument hinges on telling *me* to start my own music store? :confused:

I think maybe you are agreeing with me, but just haven't realized it yet. ;)
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I'm aware that corporations have separate structures for different products/services, but a company image is something that transcends that, and can be streamlined accordingly.

Also, I'm not sure you realize what sarcasm is. You should start a dictionary website so you can look it up.

EDIT: You should start an even better, separate dictionary website so you can look up the definition of hyperbole.
 
kloibus said:
I have no idea how this could happen.
iTunes is offering "Die Fahne hoch", "Der Führer ruft" and other Nazi Propaganda Songs!
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What a load of FUD.

Why don't you go to other music stores? Guess what? They all sell them. For example, Amazon has them too.

OMG you can look up "Die Fahne hoch" via google. Google must be evil. :rolleyes:

kloibus, why don't you sue your ISP for allowing you access to such vile material?
 
my moms side is jewish and i had family in the holocaust.

despite this, i completely support the 1st amendment and thus support having these songs on itunes. if you don't like the music, don't buy it, its that simple.

removing music for political reasons is one step away from silencing someone from talking about their political views.
 
ZazenZach said:
my moms side is jewish and i had family in the holocaust.

i completely support the 1st amendment and thus support having these songs on itunes. if you don't like the music, don't buy it, its that simple.

removing music for political reasons is one step away from silencing someone from talking about their political views.
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This is so well put.

The censorship sword cuts both ways. For some censorship is OK if it quiets a view you don' t like, but it's a matter of time before a view you do like is quieted if censorship is allowed. America can't ever let censorship become the rule.

The PMRC came out with a small voice thinking they were the "moral majority", but was generally blasted by the American public as a whole. Who thought Frank Zappa and Dee Snider (of Twisted Sister) would come out and be more eloquent than the politicians? Though spearheaded by rising Democrat Al Gore's wife, the PMRC was within the Christian Right's agenda to push for censorship during the Reagan Administration.

Besides talking about mature content, what really ultimately scared Christian conservatives in line with Reagan (some were not, of course) was that a lot of music criticized the Republican party and were far more likely to have a left-leaning message. It's no secret rap, heavy metal, and punk rock could have Reagan as one reason they wrote protest music. Even Bon Jovi attributed their first hit to the hard times that hit NJ which the GOP was totally unwilling to face. "Living on a Prayer" was an anti-Ronald Reagan song.
 
What they are doing is selling music.. if you dont like it, dont buy it... it is a store, you can buy what you want and they are successful because they offer a wide variety of music for all different genre's, lifestyles, and walks of life.
 
I don't particularly care if iTunes chooses to sell these songs, as they have historical value, but I easily see why people would be offended because of it.

I wonder how people would react if they started selling Johnny Rebel songs. I find those much more interesting from a 1st Amendment perspective.
 
The best way to prevent the holocaust from happening again is to remember it. Censoring everything that has to do with it will make people forget it.
 
gnasher729 said:
This stuff is available from the UK iTunes Store, but not from the German iTunes Store. Draw your own conclusions.
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At least volume 4 of the Nazi's military music archive is available in the German iTunes store. And as far as I know, publishing music like that is prohibited in Germany since 1947.
 
Cinematographer said:
At least volume 4 of the Nazi's military music archive is available in the German iTunes store. And as far as I know, publishing music like that is prohibited in Germany since 1947.
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No, not in general. You will get in trouble for the NSDAP hymn "Die Fahne hoch", as you will also get in deep trouble for hoisting the swastika flag or even the Reichskriegsfahne, but military music in general is not prohibited - as long as it does not glorify or clearly represent NS ideology.

By the way, you will also get into trouble when you openly sell an American version of Return To Castle Wolfenstein or Medal Of Honor -- the German editions have all the swastikas removed.
 
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