Seems pointless. Why wouldn't someone buying from iTMS just use their iPod? Does anyone go to iTMS if they don't have an iPod? How many songs can a phone hold anyway. I don't get it.
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iTunes on Motorola Phones
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rog said:
While newer phones are as expensive (if not more so) as an iPod, in most of Apple's main markets the majority of people would already own a phone. Indeed, the number of current and future phone owners dwarf iPod sales, so it's a huge potential market.
Judging by Jobs' comments, he clearly feels iTunes on phones will complement rather than replace the iPods, but I think he may be underestimating the pace of change in the phone market. Certainly, it won't be too long before the high-end phones rival the iPod Minis' capacity.
There is already a very lucrative market among (mostly young) phone owners for ringtones - if the Motorola phones will allow the iTunes songs to be played as ringtones too, I think they may be onto a winner.
ClimbingTheLog said:
Ummm, the frequency is the biggest part. In the US the cellular band (800MHz) provides better coverage then the PCS band (1900MHz). If you take a look at Sprint, they mainly have 1900MHz; Verizon has more in the cellular band then the PCS, but they both use the same CDMA technology. GSM is the same way; it can operate on both bands. Cellular provides much better distance and penetration then PCS does.
The antennae in the phone also plays a huge part.
???
Read again, I said before, twice already, europe is by UMTS, no euro-operator has CDMA2000, about who is divided, go back some posts, I said ASIA
About the quote from the GSM Association:
Do not mix 3G services with 3G platform ... far different things, "On GSM core" still 2G, known as 2.5G and as someone said before 2.75 G as well
MMS is a 3G service, but because I use MMS doesn't mean my phone is a 3G one
Lanbrown said:
Read again, I said before, twice already, europe is by UMTS, no euro-operator has CDMA2000, about who is divided, go back some posts, I said ASIA
About the quote from the GSM Association:
Do not mix 3G services with 3G platform ... far different things, "On GSM core" still 2G, known as 2.5G and as someone said before 2.75 G as well
MMS is a 3G service, but because I use MMS doesn't mean my phone is a 3G one
Of course there are people who buy from iTMS and do not have iPods. I'm one of them. I'm sure there are many others.rog said:
I like iTMS because I've been burned too many times when buying a $13 CD with only 1 or 2 good songs. iTMS allows me to buy the songs I like and burn them onto CDs for my car and home stereo. After all, iTunes did exist long before the iPod.
I'll probably end up upgrading my cell phone long before I get an iPod. Being able to use my cell phone as a poor man's iPod would be great.
rog said:
Short sightedness.
More people have cell phones than iPods.
If a person didn't have an iPod but wanted to download music and had the ability to use their cellphone they would.
The new SonyEricsson P910 can use 1Gig memory sticks... just one example... Cellphones can hold more memory than you may think ( that is, if Apple make a SE (Symbian) version of iTunes).
I expect many people who don't have an iPod use iTMS regardless.
rog said:
I assume that these phones will have a mini version of iTunes Music Store software, thus allowing you to download tracks immediately without going via your computer. The iPod can't do that. This would make the phones immediately attractive to kids, especially if the download fee could be debited from the phone account. The same kids aren't going to be worried about storage capacity - pop music to them is disposable.
I used to have a high-end MOTO phone, but it wasn't such a good phone. But this almost makes me want one.
Lanbrown said:
You have no idea what you are talking about, most major phone suppliers have had UMTS phones for months, even Nokia with it's 7600 for example.
And no, they WILL NOT send the phone call through the GSM network, it will use the UMTS network. They fallback to the GSM network, they are all dual mode UMTS/GSM (at least all I have seen), and of course the higher data speeds aren't available with the GSM network.
Just eat it - most of the world except US and Japan uses GSM (900 & 1800), and UMTS is growing on the very same markets.
AmigoMac said:ohhh! and 3GSM is still 2G but with some 3G services, so it won't be more than 2.5 G
See you still don't know what you're talking about.
From http://www.gsmworld.com/technology/3g/index.shtml -
"The technology on which 3GSM* services will be delivered is built around a core GSM network with a Wideband-CDMA (W-CDMA) air interface, which has been developed as an open standard by operators in conjunction with the 3GPP standards development organisation. Already over 85% of the world's network operators have chosen 3GSM's* underlying technology platform to deliver their third generation services. 3GSM* is a key element of GSM-The Wireless Evolution."
Makes a lot of sense for Apple. It's a completely different market segment to the ipod market. Also expect they will be used as ringtones, unprotected music files can already be used this way. The ringtone market will decline dramatically in the next few years as it becomes apparent it's about the most expensive way of purchasing music there is.
Lanbrown said:
You clearly don't know what you are talking about. Nokia also has the 6650 (nokia.com/phones/6650) and 7600 (nokia.com/phones/7600), both of which are currently available, and both of which I have used. They *both* will place calls over either GSM or UMTS (in fact I am doing it right now, you can tell that it's a UMTS connection because GPRS is still active; with GSM, GPRS is put on hold when you make calls, plus it says 3G in place of the normal network indictor shown on NOKIA phones.)
The network I am on does not have a GSM network!!!! If you look at the network carrier list of networks available in my house, you can see that 3 shows up as separate 3G and 2G networks - this is because the 2G network is actually O2, 3 rents airtime from their network so that you can still make calls when there is no 3G coverage. When I move out of 3G coverage, my call is dropped - this is because the call was made over a 3G connection, not a GSM one!!!!! Note how on Orange, the 2G and 3G signs are together - this is because it is one network but with both GSM and UMTS coverage. When there is no 3G coverage on Orange, the phone will not drop a 3G call but hand it over to the GSM network. This is not because the call was actually made over GSM, but simply because it is one network and UMTS was designed to integrate with existing GSM networks.
Think about it - there are no GSM networks in Japan, but there *are* UMTS networks - I can even use my phone on them (see http://www.three.co.uk/explore/coverage/intCountry.omp?cid=31510). If UMTS phones made voice calls on GSM networks and only used UMTS for data, how could anyone make voice calls on Vodafone Japan???????
Here is one of the many articles that gives the UMTS voice capacity argument that I cited - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/12/17/3g_is_coming_ready/
Here's the relevant bit, in case you stuggle to find it:
Here's some more: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/02/27/mobile_infrastructure_spending_to_rebound/
http://www.portel.de/news/view_redsys_artikel.asp?id=3969
http://www.technewsworld.com/story/35216.html (nice quote: "The specification delivers substantially enhanced capacity for voice... traffic")
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AmigoMac said:
MMS is actually 'carrier independent' or something, which basically means that it doesn't require any particular network technology as such to function. This is why you can get MMS on CDMA networks even though it was originally introduced with GSM phones. The minimum you need for it though is 2.5G, so it is a bit confusing to call it a 3G service, which is why I would only call video calling a 3G service, but even that's wrong as there where video phones for GSM networks (they where chunky and had poor battery life so you've prolly never heard of them - you can see a picture of them here http://www.mobileshop.org/history/future.htm - note how it is written before UMTS networks have been built and is talking of the arrival of video phones - i think it uses HSCSD as Orange developed the phone, I think before GPRS was availble, and Orange is the only UK network with HSCSD (HSCSD was around ages before GPRS and works at 28.8kbps)), so really you shouldn't talk of 3G services.
Yeah, so to relate this back to the iTunes announcement, to provide iTMS downloads direct to mobiles would not require 3G as it is already being done with 2.5G GPRS, but these downloads are at more like 64kbps music quality than 128kbps, so in order for it to work you would really need to use 3G connections (or 2.75G EDGE, which runs at 236.8kbps, but I don't think it's really being deployed outside of the US - it prolly is in some asian markets, like Singapore, but these markets are going to be small as Asia as a whole is not that wealthy).
whooleytoo said:
In the UK, and I think this is true for Europe as a whole, mobile phones tend to be given away free on 12 months contracts, and there is little to be gained by not taking one. You can save £60 a year by not getting a new phone, but when you could get a phone worth £300 for that £60 extra why would you not want to? (I talk in terms of years because when you buy a new contract phone you are usually tied to a 12month contract). You can even get Nokia smartphones free, and the very latest Nokia 1megapixel camera phone is likely to be free in a few months (nokia's previous smart phone is free). Nokia's new business phone, the 6230, which has removable memory cards and will play AAC files (though I don't think Apple's) is also free.
So yeah, basically what I'm saying is phones that already have the spec needed to run iTunes on them are already free in Europe on contract, and are likely to be reasonable on pay as you go by the time the MOTO-itunes phones are released, so price should not really be an issue here (from looking at the websites of mobile carriers in the US, it looks as though voiceminutes are alot cheaper in the US but the handsets much more expensive, even with two year contracts. That is why I am on Three even though it will drop calls when you move out of 3G coverage, because calls on it are 6 times cheaper than on the four original GSM networks).
It's also interesting to note Nokia have been selling phones capable of playing AAC since 2001 (http://www.nokia.com/phones/5510) and DRM has been available on phones for years, dating back to when they introduced monophonic ringtone sending over SMS which sparked off the whole ringtone industry. So in many ways, this announcement is rather insignificant - the only thing that makes it noteworthy is that fact that Apple is actually working with a third party company.
I find it particularly poor that you cannot buy songs over the air, as many people have phones that don't have a computer, and since operators decide the subsidy given to handsets it makes sense to keep them on your side (It is worth noting that in the UK alone there are three carriers that already have their own over-the-air music download service, and one carrier over which you can stream music videos, so a this the iTunes-Moto store is already using out of date technology half a year before it's even launched!!).
I find it particularly poor that you cannot buy songs over the air, as many people have phones that don't have a computer, and since operators decide the subsidy given to handsets it makes sense to keep them on your side (It is worth noting that in the UK alone there are three carriers that already have their own over-the-air music download service, and one carrier over which you can stream music videos, so a this the iTunes-Moto store is already using out of date technology half a year before it's even launched!!).
voodoofish said:
This doesn't mean mobile operators can't sell over the air; just that I can buy a song in one place (iTMS), using my broadband connection, and then use it another (my mobile phone), rather than having to pay for the same song twice.
Of course, the mobile operators may not like it because they are left out of the value chain. And the bundling of handsets with contracts will not last forever, once people realise how uncompetitive it is.
Wow, Apple partnered with a BAD cell phone vendor. Motorola's are a phone I'd definitely avoid, at least their CDMA phones. Their reception isn't as good in my experience as, oh, just about anything else. My Lg VX4400's the best reception I've seen, my Kyocera Slider is darn good too and my Nokia 3585i was also well above average. Most LG's and Nokia's are really good. Most Kyocera's are okay (the Slider's well above their norm). Most Moto's are poor performers, in my humble opinion. Of course, it all varies depending on network type, network infrastructure vendor, etc. Moto's might be the best on some networks. But for me, it woulda been nice if Apple had partnered with LG or somebody!
Bluetooth on Motorola phones
I sure hope Apple and Motorola will get together on Bluetooth before this happens - or we'll all need to buy a $30 USB cable from Motorola since that is the only way for Macs and Motorola cells to communicate currently.
I find the inability of my Macs to use Bluetooth to sync with my V600 Motorola cell quite silly.
I sure hope Apple and Motorola will get together on Bluetooth before this happens - or we'll all need to buy a $30 USB cable from Motorola since that is the only way for Macs and Motorola cells to communicate currently.
I find the inability of my Macs to use Bluetooth to sync with my V600 Motorola cell quite silly.
Loge said:
But you wouldn't have to pay for it twice - once you've downloaded it to your phone, you could sync it back onto your PC. I mean, if you had an iPod with you, you wouldn't really use iTunes on your mobile, and if you don't have an iPod with you then your phone won't be able to hold very many tunes (even 512MB memory cards aren't that big compared to iPods and cost more than many phones anyway!). Therefore, once you're bored of the tunes you have with you, it would be tempting to buy a tune whilst on the go.
I agree handset subsidy will probably stop eventually - for example, easyMobile is trying to launch which would be sold on a SIM only basis (easy is a brand of cheap companies which started with easyJet, a successful budget airline. I say trying because it still needs to get a physical network to agree to carry its calls). However Three, which is sold on cheap voice minutes *and* cheap handsets (like £150 for a £400 phone and 6000 voice minutes over a year) - has still only managed to get 1 million customers when the big four networks have 10-13 million each. The big four network's prices are similar and so people often tend to care more about which phone they're getting rather than which price plan when buying a new phone. I think the situation is similar in much of Europe, where there are even less than four big networks in many countries.
gilfrishman said:
They said that they will be offering both the usb cables and bluetooth connections. Im thinking that it will work.
lesbian sister of the ipod? Where did that come from??iryan said:
I think if this deal manages to take off, we'll see it in other brands. Which would be great, since I have Samsung.
edit: quote