iTunes v.s. Zune

[Eraserhead]

Well unless Microsoft switches from fairplay I would bet that it will still work with my iRiver. Even if they did switch DRM, newer players from iRiver or Creative will support it. Like just recently with URGE, the iRiver Clix works with it, and so do some other players. What I'm trying to say is that you aren't stuck with just one player, you have options.

That's what they are doing, they are abandoning Plays for Sure (Apples DRM is Fairplay ). I see the advantage of extra choice (other than the iPod) but MS are abandoning that.

 

[redfire]

I wouldn't say they are completely abandoning it, they are just abandoning the old generation of music players. New players from Creative, iriver, etc will support Microsoft's new format (thanks for telling me that Apple uses Fairplay, too similar of names ).

 

[iMeowbot]

I wouldn't say they are completely abandoning it, they are just abandoning the old generation of music players. New players from Creative, iriver, etc will support Microsoft's new format (thanks for telling me that Apple uses Fairplay, too similar of names ).

That's not what the Zune people have been saying (link, link. Zune will use one "standard", and third party manufacturers will continue to be offered the separate PlaysForSure "standard".

Both platforms do use WMA/WMV, so it may all happen to work. But two independent groups within Microsoft are doing Zune and PlaysForSure, so end-user kludges will probably be needed.

 

[aristobrat]

Well to tell you the truth, for portable music devices I prefer UMS or drag and drop. Not because I'm a pirate or whatever, but it's a lot simpler.

I used to be a big fan of drag 'n drop until I saw how useful playlists and "smart" playlists were, like a smart playlist that says "copy all of the songs in my 5,000+ song library to my player that I've rated 4 stars or more that haven't been played in the last week. Call that playlist "TOP HITS" so I can easily select those songs from the other 40GB of songs on my player. Oh, and make it so that if one of those songs isnt' so good, I can rate it 3 stars on my player, and it immediately falls off that playlist (no computer involved), and that rating will sync to my computer the next time I hook my player up".

Or "Put all of the songs I've classified as "WORKOUT" into a playlist called "WORKOUT" so I don't have to skip thru fifty of my classical tracks when I'm at the gym.

I really don't see an easy way to manage podcasts via UMS or drag 'n drop. It's too much work. The player should know if I've finished listening to an episode and delete it (and copy a new one over) accordingly. I shouldn't have to do that manually.

I also don't mind a player organizing my music (which is a choice in iTunes) because maintaining the tags and folder structure is so easy. If I want 10 songs from Tool tagged as "Top 40" vs. "Heavy Metal", it doesn't require another program.

What I'm trying to say is that you aren't stuck with just one player, you have options.

The point I don't get is that Zune is totally headed in exactly that direction. Sure, there may be different makers (Creative, Sandisk, etc), but the software to get the music on those players will be the same. You more than likely won't have UMS or drag 'n drop, or be able to use MusicMatch or WinAMP. Microsoft has seen that the success of iPods has come mainly from the fact that Apple controls the software on the computer and the software on the player.

 

[redfire]

I see, well that's rather dumb, I hope the other players will be able to access the same music content as the zune then.

 

[michaelrjohnson]

Well unless Microsoft switches from fairplay I would bet that it will still work with my iRiver. Even if they did switch DRM, newer players from iRiver or Creative will support it. Like just recently with URGE, the iRiver Clix works with it, and so do some other players. What I'm trying to say is that you aren't stuck with just one player, you have options.

This is a burning question that I have personally, that involves both the iPod/iTMS vs * debate, but also most things "PC" in general.

So you've got options... but how often do you act on them?

Why would you want to get your music from multiple sources, considering a single source has the largest library of all? Niche artists? Just buy the disc. Why would you want to have to worry about what DRM each file has, where it came from, multiple EULAs, etc... it's just unnecessarily complex.

Same situation with having the freedom to do whatever you want to your computer (I understand that modding is a hobby), but how often does the average person take advantage of the unparalled flexibility that the PC offers over the Mac? Very, VERY small percentage.

I feel that all of the potential options that flexibility offers creates far greater complexity and confusion in the vast majority of computer users... and it does it all unnecessarily.

 

[redfire]

I used to be a big fan of drag 'n drop until I saw how useful playlists and "smart" playlists were, like a smart playlist that says "copy all of the songs in my 5,000+ song library to my player that I've rated 4 stars or more that haven't been played in the last week. Call that playlist "TOP HITS" so I can easily select those songs from the other 40GB of songs on my player. Oh, and make it so that if one of those songs isnt' so good, I can rate it 3 stars on my player, and it immediately falls off that playlist (no computer involved), and that rating will sync to my computer the next time I hook my player up".

Or "Put all of the songs I've classified as "WORKOUT" into a playlist called "WORKOUT" so I don't have to skip thru fifty of my classical tracks when I'm at the gym.

This is one of the areas where drag and drop lags behind, it's possible to make playlists like this with drag and drop, but it is rather complicated. Actually, impossible unless the player's firmware is very functional (I use Rockbox on my iriver, which is an open source firmware that allows you to do a lot of things that you normally can't do)

I really don't see an easy way to manage podcasts via UMS or drag 'n drop. It's too much work. The player should know if I've finished listening to an episode and delete it (and copy a new one over) accordingly. I shouldn't have to do that manually.

Personally, I'm willing to work the extra step and replace old files manually, if I can have the freedom and flexibility that drag and drop offers.

I also don't mind a player organizing my music (which is a choice in iTunes) because maintaining the tags and folder structure is so easy. If I want 10 songs from Tool tagged as "Top 40" vs. "Heavy Metal", it doesn't require another program.

I wish it were so easy for me... iTunes has been nothing but a nightmere for me when it comes to organizing my music library. On my PC with winamp everything worked perfectly the first time I added them to the library, because at the time I thought I kept my tags nice and neat. I was so wrong.

Apparently, there is a whole other section of tags that I had never seen in until I tried importing my library into iTunes. I used a massive tag editor called tag and rename on windows, and they call these tags "additional tags."
These additional tags include things like the composer and other random junk.

Well for whatever reason, iTunes takes these "additional tags" as a priority. For example, I labeled a soundtrack's Artist as The Pirates of the Carribbean, but in additonal tags the Composer is listed as Klaus Bedalt, well when I imported the album into iTunes instead of showing The Pirates of the Caribbean as the artist, it showed Klaus Bedalt.

I had a lot worse albums than that, compliation CDs were the worst, I ended up with so many artists with only one song, it was just a mess. It took me hours to fix this in iTunes, and I still haven't imported the majority of my music over yet. It's only iTunes that does it too, I've tried a few other players too and none of them do this.

I made a topic about this on the forums, but I didn't really find a solution.

To sum up, I don't find sorting tags in iTunes easy at all, iTunes wants to think for you and in my case it screwed everything up. If they could design a software that was flawless I would give up drag and drop, but they can't.

The point I don't get is that Zune is totally headed in exactly that direction. Sure, there may be different makers (Creative, Sandisk, etc), but the software to get the music on those players will be the same. You more than likely won't have UMS or drag 'n drop, or be able to use MusicMatch or WinAMP. Microsoft has seen that the success of iPods has come mainly from the fact that Apple controls the software on the computer and the software on the player.

There are two ends of it, the player side and the computer/software side. Apple is a one way street, you have iTunes and you have iPods, at least with Microsoft you have Windows Media Player and then you have Creative, iriver, Sandisk, etc. It's better than nothing.

Your also right though, drag and drop is becoming extinct. Luckily there are those out there that won't give this up (http://www.rockbox.org/) and even some companies are willing to let you choose. iriver recently allowed you to flash your firmware to be UMS compatible only (except on the clix, since it's U.S. only) or Windows Media Player only (or whatever software they use to sync). My 2 year old iriver h320 actually allows for both.

This is a burning question that I have personally, that involves both the iPod/iTMS vs * debate, but also most things "PC" in general.

So you've got options... but how often do you act on them?

Why would you want to get your music from multiple sources, considering a single source has the largest library of all? Niche artists? Just buy the disc. Why would you want to have to worry about what DRM each file has, where it came from, multiple EULAs, etc... it's just unnecessarily complex.

I actually only use the music store to buy one or two songs from an album, otherwise I would buy the disc.

Same situation with having the freedom to do whatever you want to your computer (I understand that modding is a hobby), but how often does the average person take advantage of the unparalled flexibility that the PC offers over the Mac? Very, VERY small percentage.

But that's why you have choices, to suit your needs. Not everyone wants a PC, and thats why there are macs, and not everyone wants a mac... You choose what is best for you, it shouldn't be the other way around. You shouldn't have to buy this music player or use this software to listen to music or to write a paper.

I feel that all of the potential options that flexibility offers creates far greater complexity and confusion in the vast majority of computer users... and it does it all unnecessarily.

Unncessary for some, necessary for others. In a lot of ways I found Mac to be so simple it was complicated, and sadly I have to work with it. In a windows world you toss that software out the door and go to google and find something new. I'm not trying to bash macs, I love mine, I just wish they would be more open minded.

 

[michaelrjohnson]

But that's why you have choices, to suit your needs.

But that's my point. Only a small fraction of users (Both Mac & PC) actually take advantage of the fact that you can do more with your computer than what it came with. (For example, why is IE still the most used browser? It's not because it's the best.) I understand and appreciate that more advanced users, like ourselves, take advantage of our choices... but most people don't. And therefore, the fact that it's available, means nothing to most users, and in my opinion, negates itself as an arguing point.

In a windows world you toss that software out the door and go to google and find something new.

Don't get me (or the Mac Software market) wrong, I do this also. That's why my browser is Camino, my text editor is Smultron, and my RSS Reader is Vienna... I search out the same choices (and have the same flexibility) that you claim the Mac doesn't have. The fact of the matter is, I have yet to find any options (Mac or PC) that are superior to some of the ones what I've been given as part of my OS (for my uses).

 

[aristobrat]

There are two ends of it, the player side and the computer/software side. Apple is a one way street, you have iTunes and you have iPods, at least with Microsoft you have Windows Media Player and then you have Creative, iriver, Sandisk, etc. It's better than nothing.

It's just that most of your points in this thread are focused around the software on the PC (iTunes, in this case) not being as easy as WinAMP or drag 'n drop.

If WMP is required for the Zune like iTunes is required for the iPod, then you're pretty much in the same boat.

The only advantage I see is that you'd be able to pick your player, but that doesn't address the issues (getting the music from the PC to the player) that you've been talking about.

 

[Eraserhead]

The problems you are having with iTunes and tagging seem to be to do with another program you used to tag your MP3's which was a bit rubbish IMO . You can delete the bad tags (eg composer etc. by selecting the songs affected, right clicking and choosing Get Info and blanking (by ticking boxes next to the appropriate tags) and pressing OK. You may also be able to solve your other tagging problems by updating the tag version, you do this by selecting all your songs and going to Advanced ==>Convert ID3 Tags and selecting the latest ID3 tag version (2.4) (and ticking the box next to it.)

 

[redfire]

But that's my point. Only a small fraction of users (Both Mac & PC) actually take advantage of the fact that you can do more with your computer than what it came with. (For example, why is IE still the most used browser? It's not because it's the best.) I understand and appreciate that more advanced users, like ourselves, take advantage of our choices... but most people don't. And therefore, the fact that it's available, means nothing to most users, and in my opinion, negates itself as an arguing point.

I think it's more lack of knowledge than anything, most people don't know about Firefox or Camino.

Don't get me (or the Mac Software market) wrong, I do this also. That's why my browser is Camino, my text editor is Smultron, and my RSS Reader is Vienna... I search out the same choices (and have the same flexibility) that you claim the Mac doesn't have. The fact of the matter is, I have yet to find any options (Mac or PC) that are superior to some of the ones what I've been given as part of my OS (for my uses).

Your right, I'm just bitter towards iTunes. Overall my mac experience has been wonderful, and I haven't had any issues with other Mac programs yet.

It's just that most of your points in this thread are focused around the software on the PC (iTunes, in this case) not being as easy as WinAMP or drag 'n drop.

If WMP is required for the Zune like iTunes is required for the iPod, then you're pretty much in the same boat.

The only advantage I see is that you'd be able to pick your player, but that doesn't address the issues (getting the music from the PC to the player) that you've been talking about.

I guess I got a little off topic, because I know there is no way that Microsoft is going to allow drag and drop for their player (would be super awesome though ), my original arguement was in my first post where the article made a few decent points (which with new information some of those points are now void).

The problems you are having with iTunes and tagging seem to be to do with another program you used to tag your MP3's which was a bit rubbish IMO . You can delete the bad tags (eg composer etc. by selecting the songs affected, right clicking and choosing Get Info and blanking (by ticking boxes next to the appropriate tags) and pressing OK. You may also be able to solve your other tagging problems by updating the tag version, you do this by selecting all your songs and going to Advanced ==>Convert ID3 Tags and selecting the latest ID3 tag version (2.4) (and ticking the box next to it.)

I'm definitely trying this, thanks for the advice!
Update: Well I tried it, but when I updated the tags it had the opposite affect of what I wanted. So I'm still not really sure why iTunes takes Band/Orchestra or Composer as a priority but oh well. Good news is that I found an easy way to massively edit them on my PC (where my entire library is stored).

 

[pknz]

God the author of that article is a tosser.

 

[Eraserhead]

I'm definitely trying this, thanks for the advice!
Update: Well I tried it, but when I updated the tags it had the opposite affect of what I wanted. So I'm still not really sure why iTunes takes Band/Orchestra or Composer as a priority but oh well.

Sounds weird, have you selected the Artist column as shown in this screenshot?



If so, I have no idea why iTunes is acting weird.

 

[Arnaud]

How much veracity can there be in the rumor mentioned in the article, and coming from Engadget, that MS will let the user download for free all the songs he got from iTunes (and still pay the rights) ?

I'm not sure about all the legal loopholes, and it's true that the XBox department has been wasting money for years, but wouldn't that be close to a dumping technique ?

It's supposedly forbidden/condemned to sell something for less than what you bought it (as it would be unfair for the competition).

Ok, this is not my field, but some background about the question can be foundhere.

 

[michaelrjohnson]

I think it's more lack of knowledge than anything...

Exactly. That's why it's a moot point that said flexibility exists. Most people don't know, and don't care.

 

[hulugu]

Just to play the devil's advocate

3. iTunes = UNFORGIVING

Is it true that the only way to backup your music, that was purchased off iTunes, is by burning it to a CD? That is kind of ridiculous, that you can't just copy it over to another computer and later authorize it to play.

4. iTunes = HORRIBLE USER EXPERIENCE.

I wasn't sure if he was specifically talking about the music store or just the player in general, but in my opinion the player is pretty awful. I'm a switcher, and compared to winamp, iTunes is too controlling. What I mean is, lets say you want to do this in a certain way, well iTunes wants you to do it this way. I'm all for keeping things simple, but iTunes makes it so simple that it becomes complicated. That's just the player, the store is just fine though.

5. iPod = CRASH.

On a completely unrelated note, my PC rarely crashes (maybe once a month), but in the first month of having my macbook it has crashed 5 times on me. Although, I admit that it was my first time using a mac, so it might have been my fault. I don't have an iPod so I can't really say anything about it.

8. iTunes = PROPRIETARY FILE FORMAT.

DRM sucks, plain and simple. I actually refuse to upgrade iTunes on my PC, because I still want to be able to rip out the DRM (later upgrades prevent a certain program from working). The point is that I don't have an iPod, and I want to buy music off iTunes and play it on my iRiver. iTunes only lets you play music on the iPod, I'm sorry but I don't want an iPod. At least Microsoft is giving you an alternative, “planning to let you download for free any songs you've already bought from the iTunes Music Store”.


I know I'm probably not going to get much support here for this post, but try to look at it from another side.

Playing the devil's advocate is always useful because it helps refine arguements. And, in this case we can see how facile those for Microsoft's Zune system are.

For all intents and purposes, Zune will carry-over the inherent flaw of iTunes: DRM, but will have packaged it in Microsoft's own proprietary system. Yay!

The most interesting thing is Microsoft's claim to let users 're-download' previously purchased songs from iTunes, but this is problematic both technically and legally, and I think is vapor-ware at best. It would be nice if this was possible because it would break the 'lock-in' that both Apple and Microsoft will be able to wield. But, I believe it's unlikely, and even if possible would not be worth transitioning all my music to WMA so Microsoft could find a new way to treat Mac users as second class citizens.

Lastly, Macs shouldn't crash and you might have a hardware problem that should be addressed. Also, backup often.

 

[hulugu]

I wouldn't say they are completely abandoning it, they are just abandoning the old generation of music players. New players from Creative, iriver, etc will support Microsoft's new format (thanks for telling me that Apple uses Fairplay, too similar of names ).

It's my understanding that Zune will not work with PlaysForSure systems and thus will be a completely different ecology from Napster and Creative.

Microsoft is going to build a system exactly like iTunes and the iPod.

 

[Hytower77]

It's my understanding that Zune will not work with PlaysForSure systems and thus will be a completely different ecology from Napster and Creative.

Microsoft is going to build a system exactly like iTunes and the iPod.

Amen...they are taking the exact business model that they have been saying isn't the way people want to get/listen/manage music, slapping their own "creative" names on the parts and pushing it out to the masses.

Like a few before me have said; lack of knowledge of the alternatives will drive it's popularity.

As much as I hate to say it, I think the Zune and the software they use, wether it's URGE or something else will prob do pretty ok to good because people won't know any better. Espcially if it comes packaged on PCs standard (Like IE for example).

But, the thing is, until something can match the relative ease of use for the first time user or the non-power user type (Think the average parents), iTunes will have a huge advantage. Same with the iPod.

 

[redfire]

Amen...they are taking the exact business model that they have been saying isn't the way people want to get/listen/manage music, slapping their own "creative" names on the parts and pushing it out to the masses.

Like a few before me have said; lack of knowledge of the alternatives will drive it's popularity.

As much as I hate to say it, I think the Zune and the software they use, wether it's URGE or something else will prob do pretty ok to good because people won't know any better. Espcially if it comes packaged on PCs standard (Like IE for example).

But, the thing is, until something can match the relative ease of use for the first time user or the non-power user type (Think the average parents), iTunes will have a huge advantage. Same with the iPod.

I don't think it will overtake the iPod any time soon, unless Microsoft has a very good ad campaign. One reason is because Apple, owns majority of the market in music players. When people go out to look for a new player, because their old iPod died, they'll probably look for a newer iPod since that is what they are accustomed to. Secondly, even those who don't have an iPod know about it, I could ask my grandpa about an iPod and he would probably call it that music playing thing. The general population knows about the iPod, or at least in the U.S. Thirdly, Apple is cool with teenagers, unless Microsoft can come off as cool and hip with Zune, they won't get the second generation's support.

Personally, I would like Microsoft to become a good competitor to Apple with their Zune, because competition is good, with better competition, Apple will have to continue to make the iPod better.

 

[Hytower77]

I don't think it will overtake the iPod any time soon, unless Microsoft has a very good ad campaign. One reason is because Apple, owns majority of the market in music players. When people go out to look for a new player, because their old iPod died, they'll probably look for a newer iPod since that is what they are accustomed to. Secondly, even those who don't have an iPod know about it, I could ask my grandpa about an iPod and he would probably call it that music playing thing. The general population knows about the iPod, or at least in the U.S. Thirdly, Apple is cool with teenagers, unless Microsoft can come off as cool and hip with Zune, they won't get the second generation's support.

Personally, I would like Microsoft to become a good competitor to Apple with their Zune, because competition is good, with better competition, Apple will have to continue to make the iPod better.

I don't think they will overtake them at all either, even with a "GREAT" ad campaign, unless Apple falls on its face. Which I don't see happening. But, there are a ton more people who will do what is easiest and convienent (Again, I hate using the IE example), rather than use something better, than the number of folks who already have an iPod and will continue to buy.

The thing that worries me, is the people that are using an iPod for the sheer fact that they can say they have an iPod and don't know about half of what iTunes does or is capable of. Those people are the ones that Apple is going to have to work more on to keep. What if the Zune actually has a little something to it? It becomes the next "New" thing, think Moto RAZR/SLVR (Insert more random consonants here). I'm willing to bet most people don't use over half the feature that their phones have. (Don't hold me to that, I don't know the numbers, but from judging how I see people use phones, I think that's fair, if not a low %.) Now all this being said, the iPod will stay big for a long, long, long time because the faithful.

It's a crazy thing, I think there are a ton of people who would rather be "Cool/Hip" than familar with a product. At least with things like phones, music players etc. Now if they only thought that way for computers and software, we'd be doing ok. Everyone would have a mac. What fun could we have with them then?

Overall I hope it does ok too from a competition stand point. It's nothing but good.

 

[Hytower77]

Also, think about the cash Microsoft has to throw at this thing marketing wise...it's freakin' scary.

Remember when Windows 95 was released? To this day, that is still one of the most memorable marketing campaigns in my mind. Not because it impressed me, I could have gave a damn about computers at the time...but just because the sheer volume of stuff you heard/saw/read about it.

That type of marketing approach is hard to get a read on. Shotgunning like that and marketing to all 260+ million people in the U.S. and 6+ Billion worldwide, you know the response is going to be huge. The numbers just pan out that way. (Unless it just plain sucks.) When you have limitless amounts of cash, you can eventually get the desired results of sucess for your product*.

*Not true all the time, but it sure as hell makes it easier.