Ive given up

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

This might be an explanation if it weren't for the fact that Apple is the largest company, by market cap, of all time.

That's not how you run companies. You can have 10 trillion market cap but that doesn't mean you can throw more and more resources at a department. In fact the more resources you throw the more chaotic it gets. That's why departments have to be run efficiently and budgeted appropriately.

 

[pl1984]

That's not how you run companies. You can have 10 trillion market cap but that doesn't mean you can throw more and more resources at a department. In fact the more resources you throw the more chaotic it gets. That's why departments have to be run efficiently and budgeted appropriately.

While there is a point of diminishing returns I can tell you that Apple easily has the resources to update the Mac if they chose to do so. Despite it being such a wealthy company their product line is fairly small. The major categories being iPhones, iPads, Macs, subscription content, and other. Companies like HP and GE have drastically larger product offerings and they have less capital resources than Apple.

It's either Apple is unwilling to commit the necessary resources or Apples current leadership lacks the knowledge / skill to do so. My opinion it is the former but perhaps it is the latter.

 

[Helloha]

Anyone else throwing in the towel this year? If they think its ok to abandon us, well guess I can leave also.


I dont want a frankenstein computer.
I dont want a hackintosh
I dont want 4k/5k 16:9
I dont want 14 thunderbolt 3 ports without hdmi or dp 1.4


I guess I'm no longer the target consumer for these products anymore. It's not even about hte pricing, $5k for an imac pro? not a problem-- I can spend that amount.


But I'm going back to get something that fits my needs.

nvme storage
34-38" 21:9 (5k uw via LG if necessary)
8c/16thread 2700x with the option to upgrade to a 7nm cpu in 2 years via dropin
and a 1080ti


sorry I dont see anyway I can justify a future mac pro anymore no matter how badly I want one.

I just recently switched to windows after 10 years of OSX. Initially switched for their Final cut suite, now I switched back because the lack of stable GPU drivers needed to run Premiere Pro with Nvidia cards. (constant kernel panics).

Build myself a supermicro X9 system with 2x 10 core CPU's.

It is faster then my 12 core mac pro but windows is plain horrible to work with.

I still have my macbook to do all my office work. but file management has to happen with explorer which still has the exact functionality as in... 2002-6? when I jumped to osx from XP.

I miss osx...

 

[AidenShaw]

Regarding the title of the thread: "Ive given up"
Is that supposed to be a typo for:
"Ivy given up" - Because he can't design a beautiful COMPLETELY glued together professional Mac Pro, or:
"I've given up" - Which is understandable!

I can't help but read the typo in the title as "Ive gives up" - which might be a very good thing for the Mac.

 

[applesaucePro]

the current rumor (or fact?) is that tim cook has decided to end macOS and create a new operating system based upon iOS. the new macs will no longer use an intel cpu, they will have a custom ARM cpu such as in the iphone. this can be why none of the macs were updated in such a long time, since its all being redesigned from the ground up. once these changes are made windows cannot run in bootcamp, and macOS software won't run either. iOS apps might run or might not. it is unknown if the new modular mac pro is going to be using the new ARM cpu or not. if it's not using the new cpu it will probably be the very last mac with intel+macOS. also they have decided to abandon openGL, in the future everything must use the metal api... I'm deciding if I even want to buy into a dead end platform if they do make a modular mac only to have it be the last of the line. I already know I'm not gonna buy into a ARM based platform, with a half baked phone OS... sounds a lot like what win8 was meant to be.

 

[AidenShaw]

once these changes are made windows cannot run in bootcamp, and macOS software won't run either

If so, I'll need to update the "Mac Pro tombstone" avatar to say "macOS", or "OSX", or just "Mac".

This would turn the "Mac" into an Iphone with a keyboard, and no pro apps.

 

[applesaucePro]

even if they make a super powerful multi-core ARM cpu, and a whole new ecosystem of pro-apps, its gonna be a new walled garden for pros. everyone has to re-buy software and nobody cheats apple out of money by using pesky windows apps in bootcamp! it could be the most powerful computer ever and I won't want it because its not convenient at all. why stop there though, lets remove the audio jacks and all the buttons from the keyboard too then it can be like the iphone! don't forget waterproofing, weld that sucker shut and all the parts to the pcb! if they allow you to replace even one peice they can still claim its modular, like a vanity color plate on the front haha.

 

[jscipione]

Apple intends to keep Mac OS around in some incarnation for the foreseeable future but after 2020 Arm based Macs will come out running iOS apps the lines will be blurred. The Mac Pro 7,1 may be the last great x86 Mac like the PowerMac G5 of a new era.

 

[singhs.apps]

Apple intends to keep Mac OS around in some incarnation for the foreseeable future but after 2020 Arm based Macs will come out running iOS apps the lines will be blurred. The Mac Pro 7,1 may be the last great x86 Mac like the PowerMac G5 of a new era.

In which case it would be another dead end machine like the tcMP. Dudder than dead maybe.

Why invest in x86 macOS if we would be getting an arm based system anyway.

 

[jscipione]

In which case it would be another dead end machine like the tcMP. Dudder than dead maybe.

Why invest in x86 macOS if we would be getting an arm based system anyway.

Because Arm will perform poorly compared to Xeons for a while still in this class of machine, you'll be able to run "legacy" x86 apps at full speed and the Mac Pro will ship with an Arm coprocessor similar to the T2 chip in the iMac Pro to carry you forward into the Arm future.

 

[Hanson Eigilson]

When Apple is redesigning systems it is with new upcoming components in mind. So it is best to wait for a moment of slowdown in the CPU war to make sure you are releasing a machine at an opportune moment.

Yeah, or you know maybe try and release current models more than once every few years like every single serious PC manufacturer!
[doublepost=1529550723][/doublepost]

I still have my macbook to do all my office work. but file management has to happen with explorer which still has the exact functionality as in... 2002-6? when I jumped to osx from XP.

I miss osx...

Comon lol, you can get THE best filemanagers on windows, like total commander or XYplorer, don't use explorer for any real work, it's hard to get anything nearly as good on mac (currently using Commander one on macOS)

 

[Biped]

Comon lol, you can get THE best filemanagers on windows, like total commander or XYplorer, don't use explorer for any real work, it's hard to get anything nearly as good on mac (currently using Commander one on macOS)

find . -type f -name "explorer.exe" -exec rm -f {} \;

i laugh at your piddly windows 'filemanagers'

 

[ctrlzone]

Anyone else throwing in the towel this year? If they think its ok to abandon us, well guess I can leave also.


I dont want a frankenstein computer.
I dont want a hackintosh
I dont want 4k/5k 16:9
I dont want 14 thunderbolt 3 ports without hdmi or dp 1.4


I guess I'm no longer the target consumer for these products anymore. It's not even about hte pricing, $5k for an imac pro? not a problem-- I can spend that amount.


But I'm going back to get something that fits my needs.

nvme storage
34-38" 21:9 (5k uw via LG if necessary)
8c/16thread 2700x with the option to upgrade to a 7nm cpu in 2 years via dropin
and a 1080ti


sorry I dont see anyway I can justify a future mac pro anymore no matter how badly I want one.

personally i would wait this fall to see whats coming on the mac pro side, i think they gonna at least mention something
the reasons for or against a mac are still the same, nothing changed, good luck with windows
[doublepost=1529630103][/doublepost]

The major issue is not designing the new machine. The issue is there is a CPU war going on between Intel and AMD. The updates are coming fast so you need to judge when to release a new computer otherwise it could get outdated fast.

For example, there's a 28 core Intel CPU clocked at 5Ghz coming this Fall.

Imagine that in a Mac Pro if you need that many cores.

as if apple would care about that

 

[Tooldog]

Throwing in the towel? Do we really have any other choice? The iMac Pro is a dead end. Why do you think they are so short of repair parts for it?

IF Apple INC were manufacturing new MacOS hardware, somebody somewhere on Wall Street probably would have noticed and reported it by now. That silence is deafening.... I don't believe the, "I love Mac," hype from Tim Cook. Unless "Mac" is a euphemism for money.

Apple INC are selling mostly non-repairable/disposable mobile phones by the literal boat load and we, idiots that we are, keep buying them. But mobile phones will be very iterative after 5G tech is in place. Rolling out 5G is now seen as a national security imperative, so I don't expect it to prod along slowly quite like LTE has. Along with 5G will be an evolution of The Cloud which could mark another shift in computing resources back to pseudo-centralized computing in general...

Which parts of these upcoming changes are most important to continuing the meteoric rise of Apple INC? Does the MacOS computing platform make sense in the upcoming paradigm? Large companies can't turn on a dime so they do a LOT of forecasting.... Meaning they knew all this well before I did, and they are much smarter than me as well. The question we have to ask ourselves is, would we invest in an aging desktop platform or not? Couldn't we have simply ordered the motherboards and such from someone already making them to stick in an Apple INC enclosure? Yes, and delivered a modular Mac two quarters after the order. What they are doing is nothing short of "Mining The Infrastructure."

Apple INC products are made FOR (silicon valley)California. They just happen to be sold everywhere.

I'm going to miss using OSX/MacOS. I've already built a Win10/Linux machine.

 

[jasnw]

I'm going to miss using OSX/MacOS. I've already built a Win10/Linux machine.

And that's the thing - many of us who are hanging on with macOS and some collection of Mac hardware would prefer to stay with macOS and Apple hardware IF Apple decides to build hardware we can (and want to) use. If/when it becomes clear that Apple's future hardware and OS plans are aimed at sealed boxes and tightly walled gardens, many of us will say some bad words and just go back to the Linux/Windows world we had been living with before Apple got the training wheels off of OS X in the early 2000s. There truly is no perfect, but what's so annoying is that Apple could get pretty close to that for many of us, and around Snow Leopard it was looking very promising. Then Steve got sick and Ivy's star rose, and here we are. We all know how to find our own sweet spot, be it Apple+macOS or DIYbox+Linux/Windows, and Apple has under a year to piss or get off the pot.

 

[Black Tiger]

And that's the thing - many of us who are hanging on with macOS and some collection of Mac hardware would prefer to stay with macOS and Apple hardware IF Apple decides to build hardware we can (and want to) use. If/when it becomes clear that Apple's future hardware and OS plans are aimed at sealed boxes and tightly walled gardens, many of us will say some bad words and just go back to the Linux/Windows world we had been living with before Apple got the training wheels off of OS X in the early 2000s. There truly is no perfect, but what's so annoying is that Apple could get pretty close to that for many of us, and around Snow Leopard it was looking very promising. Then Steve got sick and Ivy's star rose, and here we are. We all know how to find our own sweet spot, be it Apple+macOS or DIYbox+Linux/Windows, and Apple has under a year to piss or get off the pot.

I don’t even know where to begin with this nonsense. The Macintosh, released in 1984, was a “sealed box” too. If anything, more sealed than the current Mac Pro that people continue to bash. The iMac Pro is much closer in essence to Steve’s original Mac than some box designed to be opened and modified. Additionally, the expandable boxes Apple made for years were highly proprietary. It’s not as though one could ever go out and buy some graphics card off the shelf and stick it in a Mac. Apple licensed a limited number of compatible accessories. It has always been a “walled garden” and so any warm feelings you have of Apple’s past come from that walled garden. It is absolutely asinine to suggest that Intel-based Macs of 2018 are somehow in a walled garden but the Power PC towers weren’t, for example. Also, High Sierra is infinitely more advanced than Snow Leopard, sorry. It just is. Snow Leopard was fantastic for the day, but it’s obsolete. Things change. What great Snow Leopard feature are you missing? The file system alone in High Sierra and it’s optimization for SSDs makes a huge difference.

 

[barmann]

Also, High Sierra is infinitely more advanced than Snow Leopard, sorry. It just is. Snow Leopard was fantastic for the day, but it’s obsolete. Things change. What great Snow Leopard feature are you missing? The file system alone in High Sierra and it’s optimization for SSDs makes a huge difference.

How is HS more advanced than SL ?
Or could a moderately updated Snow Leopard - which runs a lot faster - at least on the surface - and offers far superior backwards compatibility , be a better solution ?

Honest question .

 

[pl1984]

I don’t even know where to begin with this nonsense. The Macintosh, released in 1984, was a “sealed box” too. If anything, more sealed than the current Mac Pro that people continue to bash. The iMac Pro is much closer in essence to Steve’s original Mac than some box designed to be opened and modified. Additionally, the expandable boxes Apple made for years were highly proprietary. It’s not as though one could ever go out and buy some graphics card off the shelf and stick it in a Mac. Apple licensed a limited number of compatible accessories. It has always been a “walled garden” and so any warm feelings you have of Apple’s past come from that walled garden. It is absolutely asinine to suggest that Intel-based Macs of 2018 are somehow in a walled garden but the Power PC towers weren’t, for example.

I agree that the current products offered by Apple are much closer to the original Macintosh than the expandable versions. However that doesn't negate the fact Apple has made very expandable systems and there are users who want / need such expansion. The lack of expandability wasn't such a big issue until such time as Apple offers nothing that is expandable. If Apple would have kept the cMP form factor and also released the nMP form factor then there would have been something for everyone.

Apple was founded on expandable computers (Apple 2 line). Even the Apple //c didn't sell well compared to the Apple //e.​

Also, High Sierra is infinitely more advanced than Snow Leopard, sorry. It just is. Snow Leopard was fantastic for the day, but it’s obsolete. Things change. What great Snow Leopard feature are you missing? The file system alone in High Sierra and it’s optimization for SSDs makes a huge difference.

While it HS may be more advanced the question I have is: Have those advancements translated into productivity gains. I would say for the vast majority of people the answer would be no. During the rise of the PC improvements in operating systems translated into gains. Today it's my opinion most people could be just as productive on SL as they could HS.

 

[jasnw]

I don’t even know where to begin with this nonsense.

Feeling is mutual. You saw a negative comment about Apple and read into it what you wanted, not what I said. My point is that Apple is at a fork in the road where one fork is towards more software walled garden (as in iOS) and, yes as in olden days, sealed-box hardware, the other fork towards continuing to have an open OS and having at least one product line offering more open hardware FOR THOSE WHO WANT/NEED IT. I have been very happy with Apple hardware since I started buying it in the early 2000s (no, I'm not a purist who's owned Apple since the first product out of Woz's garage) and was happy with OS X up until Lion, become less happy starting around Mavericks. Yes, there are still some fine ideas leaking out at times, APFS will likely be very nice once it comes out of beta testing, but I find that I now look forward to new OS releases with dread. Stuff is broken, "it just works" is now a punch line rather than a driving philosophy, things are added/changed that while they do change things they don't add much.

If you love Apple, fine. That's your choice. I like what they have been doing, but I don't like where they are going and I do have options. I don't think I'm alone in either this feeling about Apple's future, nor in having other options and willingness to take them. I understand that your response is likely to be "don't let the door hit you on the way out", but this is a forum, not a choir.

 

[Biped]

Wait, hasn't there always been an apple/mac in the lineup with expandability ? Whether it be apple iic, or gs, or Quadras, power macs, centris, etc.. etc... with nubus or pci or pcie .. user serviceable ram ?

I'm also curious about the claim that HS is more advanced than SL. Most of the features quoted ( a la filesystems ) could be considered add-ons or modules.. has there been major kernel advancements ? memory/paging/swap management ? Fundamental improvements to whatever vestigial core nextstep architecture is still in play.

Arguably the virtual desktop functionality has taken large leaps backwards. But aesthetic sheen is hardly a 'technical advancement'. I ask this out of a place of ignorance.. I don't poke around much in darwin or the core underpinnings, but also note that Apple is not really forthcoming with the technical details of the OS updates. So if you know of these things, I'd be curious to know myself.

 

[applesaucePro]

the original macs were not deliberately designed to be non-upgradeable walled gardens. doing it by design is scumbaggery. in the past things were proprietary because there were no industry standard specs such as ATX, but there's no excuse for it now.

in the 80s apple was a great value. they were basically selling computers to the public for 1/3 the price of their competitors at the time, while today they are the most expensive and offer the least value.

today, they force you to buy their next product quicker by making you buy a low spec computer. you can pay the extortion money for high priced "upgrades" to delay it becoming obsolete, but its a losing game because you have now paid double or more than the base spec, and apple will stop supporting the product within 7 years on average. sooner or later you will get hit with an un-repairable breakage because everything is proprietary/soldered/welded/glued/etc.

the core wars between intel and amd are definitely bringing us huge cost/performance gains. in fact the intel ceo just got fired, they're claiming he stepped down because of a relationship thing, but its obvious he got canned. a report came out a few days ago showing that amd now has about 50% of the cpu market, last year it was around 10? ouch. so come december i bet we see more price drops, because so far intel has not slashed prices nearly enough to be competitive.

intel smells money in the graphics card market because of the crypto-mining fad and are going to be getting into that within 2 years. more competition for amd and nvidia should eventually drop prices here too.

personally, I don't know what I will be getting. I was really hoping this modular mac would turn up so I could look it over because I don't like the direction win10 has gone, and they sabotaged win7 to prevent anyone to continue using it.

new variants of meltdown and spectre have been found that affect both amd and intel chips. the new chips coming in december may only be half fixed in silicon, and the software patches rob you of 10% to 30% of your performance. I am not buying a broken cpu, and its very hard to find a graphic card right now, so I may just keep waiting. it could be a long wait.

 

[dogslobber]

You've given up or Jony has? It wasn't clear.

 

[pl1984]

the original macs were not deliberately designed to be non-upgradeable walled gardens. doing it by design is scumbaggery. in the past things were proprietary because there were no industry standard specs such as ATX, but there's no excuse for it now.

in the 80s apple was a great value. they were basically selling computers to the public for 1/3 the price of their competitors at the time, while today they are the most expensive and offer the least value.

today, they force you to buy their next product quicker by making you buy a low spec computer. you can pay the extortion money for high priced "upgrades" to delay it becoming obsolete, but its a losing game because you have now paid double or more than the base spec, and apple will stop supporting the product within 7 years on average. sooner or later you will get hit with an un-repairable breakage because everything is proprietary/soldered/welded/glued/etc.

the core wars between intel and amd are definitely bringing us huge cost/performance gains. in fact the intel ceo just got fired, they're claiming he stepped down because of a relationship thing, but its obvious he got canned. a report came out a few days ago showing that amd now has about 50% of the cpu market, last year it was around 10? ouch. so come december i bet we see more price drops, because so far intel has not slashed prices nearly enough to be competitive.

intel smells money in the graphics card market because of the crypto-mining fad and are going to be getting into that within 2 years. more competition for amd and nvidia should eventually drop prices here too.

personally, I don't know what I will be getting. I was really hoping this modular mac would turn up so I could look it over because I don't like the direction win10 has gone, and they sabotaged win7 to prevent anyone to continue using it.

new variants of meltdown and spectre have been found that affect both amd and intel chips. the new chips coming in december may only be half fixed in silicon, and the software patches rob you of 10% to 30% of your performance. I am not buying a broken cpu, and its very hard to find a graphic card right now, so I may just keep waiting. it could be a long wait.

The original Macintosh was deliberately designed to be expandable only via external ports. Straight from the horses mouth:

Diagnostic Port​

This site is an excellent read if you want to learn more about the development of the Macintosh.

As for AMD having 50% market share I have serious doubts about that. Perhaps in a specific market segment but not the overall market.

 

[AidenShaw]

a report came out a few days ago showing that amd now has about 50% of the cpu market, last year it was around 10?

Links, please. And is it for total sales, or over-the-counter DIY sales?

 

[applesaucePro]

This site is an excellent read if you want to learn more about the development of the Macintosh.

thanks i will read up on it, i will be surprised if they were deliberately trying to force obsolescence on the early machines. i had some of the early apples and it just never seemed that way to me.

as for the amd marketshare i'm not sure where i saw it originally, they may have based it upon diy sales and other speculation. i just googled for it and the last official report i found said 12%, then one for 50% diy sales which is more recent. they also downgraded the intel stock. one other thing is that there was an unusually large number of amd equipped laptops shown at the computex trade show. if you look at it all together along with the 5ghz 28c demo that was on refrigeration, and the ceo not only being replaced but also being removed from the board of directors, its not looking good for them.

50% of the diy sales
https://wccftech.com/amd-aggressive...-on-track-to-return-to-its-athlon64-hay-days/

12% of the CPU market at the end of 2017, up from 9.9% at the end of 2016
https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/05/29/amd-keeps-chipping-away-at-intels-chip-dominance.aspx

intel stock downgraded
http://fortune.com/2018/06/18/amd-stock-price-intel/

leaked benchmarks show 32c threadripper beats the 28c intel chip in cinebench at stock speeds
https://www.theinquirer.net/inquire...es-on-intels-28-core-cpu-in-leaked-benchmarks

sony ps5 will have both an amd cpu and gpu
https://www.theinquirer.net/inquire...-powered-by-amds-navi-gpu-chip-reports-claims

amd laptops (skip to 2:53)