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Gudi

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May 3, 2013
4,590
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Berlin, Berlin
Here's Robert Greene talking about escapism without using the word. What strikes me about the Vision Pro is not only is it a product designed to completely immerse you in a fantasy, the way it's supposed to work is also presented as a complete fantasy. Just do the same finger pinch gesture for everything, the system will know what you want from constantly tracking your line of view. Don't dare to show spontaneous eye movements until your click was registered on the right target. In the same keynote they spoke about myopia and that kids should play outside and increase their viewing distance. This headset goes in the exact opposite direction and can't be healthy for your eyes.
 

Stevenyo

macrumors 6502
Oct 2, 2020
305
478
Here's Robert Greene talking about escapism without using the word. What strikes me about the Vision Pro is not only is it a product designed to completely immerse you in a fantasy, the way it's supposed to work is also presented as a complete fantasy. Just do the same finger pinch gesture for everything, the system will know what you want from constantly tracking your line of view. Don't dare to show spontaneous eye movements until your click was registered on the right target. In the same keynote they spoke about myopia and that kids should play outside and increase their viewing distance. This headset goes in the exact opposite direction and can't be healthy for your eyes.
It;s not about a fantasy. at all. It's about fixing my posture when using monitors. It;s about making watching a movie on a plane as high quality as a movie theater. It's about being able to do multi monitor work while traveling without checking an entire giant roadie case full of equipment. 90% of usage will either be just picking the movie you want to watch or controlling with mouse and keyboard. It's a new display tech, that's leagues beyond every other display paradiam we have. It's not for all day, it's not to replace life with fantasy, it's to make enjoying our TV time more, and to make high focus parts of our workflows more productive and healthy. This version is designed to be worn for a couple hours at a time at most. Someday there will likely be VisionAir devices that are basically glasses with a HUD, but even then it's to overlay useful or enjoyable info, not replace reality.

your critisim is so weird for an explicitly "Mixed" or "Augmented" reality device, when there are a lot of existing VR products out there already. And even they haven't created any sort of dystopian nightmare beyond the screen addicton flat screens are totally capabale of. Would a perfect world have far less screens or screen time? yes. but since that goes against capitalism and our addictive nature, i'm not holding my breath and I might as well have the best screen experience I can with the time I'm going to be looking at a screen.
 

Gudi

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Original poster
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,266
Berlin, Berlin
It's about fixing my posture when using monitors.
Yeah, wearing a 600g helmet for an hour will do wonders for your neck pain. Because looking down on your keyboard and up at your monitor isn't hard enough without that extra weight.
It's about making watching a movie on a plane as high quality as a movie theater.
People don't fly in airplanes as much as they think. Every consumer device is essentially a living room device. When you sit on a couch and watch through a mixed reality headset, you'll most likely see a white wall with a giant 4K TV.
It's about being able to do multi monitor work while traveling without checking an entire giant roadie case full of equipment.
You travel to be in another physical place and experience things, which can't be displayed on a monitor. I don't think mobile multi-monitor is as big of a deal. A smartphone or tablet is as much mobile computing as anyone might need. And laptop docking stations already exist. The headset is about things a monitor or even three monitors can't do, full immersion.
90% of usage will either be just picking the movie you want to watch or controlling with mouse and keyboard. It's a new display tech, that's leagues beyond every other display paradigm we have.
A display? Not a new kind of computer with a more advanced user interface? If it's just another way of looking at videos and not of interacting with data, then it's even more useless than I thought.
Someday there will likely be VisionAir devices that are basically glasses with a HUD, but even then it's to overlay useful or enjoyable info, not replace reality.
So it's not about fantasy and yet here you are, already fantasizing about what this technology might become in the future, like some science fiction author. Smartphone users mostly want feasible features and apps, which are absolutely doable with today's technology. But VR itself is selling the dream of entering another world of wonder, where the possibilities are limitless like on a holodeck. − He who imagines himself buying a wonderful, cheap and light VR headset of the future is already engaging in escapism from today's technological boundaries.
Your critisim is so weird for an explicitly "Mixed" or "Augmented" reality device, when there are a lot of existing VR products out there already. And even they haven't created any sort of dystopian nightmare beyond the screen addicton flat screens are totally capabale of.
Even books can be a form of escapism. And we're already living in the nightmare, where a Facebook algorithm can be used to manipulate voters with targeted lies. All this isn't dependent on VR technology, but VR is hiding your face behind a mask and Vision Pro is the first VR product to add back creepy virtual-eyes to give the illusion of you still being present and attentive, or so the Apple AI wants to make us believe.
Would a perfect world have far less screens or screen time? yes. but since that goes against capitalism and our addictive nature, i'm not holding my breath and I might as well have the best screen experience I can with the time I'm going to be looking at a screen.
Makes sense, why stop buying drugs when your dealer wants you to continue? You might as well take the good ones and enjoy your trip for as long as it lasts. This is definitely not a dystopian mindset.
 

Stevenyo

macrumors 6502
Oct 2, 2020
305
478
Yeah, wearing a 600g helmet for an hour will do wonders for your neck pain. Because looking down on your keyboard and up at your monitor isn't hard enough without that extra weight.
it will make a huge differnce to my posture. My postural issues are due to hunching over a smartphone or laptop as well as craining my neck into a position for whatever other display I might be using. They're a constraint of physical reality that a HMD removes. My laptop display can be elevated above the keyboard allowing for better posture. Being able to keep the display a constant "distance" from my face while working means I will not have to contort for optimal viewing angles. Cell phone use is the equivilent strain on our boides of a heavy weight draped over our necks, wearing a pound or so on my head while sitting properly is nothing compared to that.

People don't fly in airplanes as much as they think. Every consumer device is essentially a living room device. When you sit on a couch and watch through a mixed reality headset, you'll most likely see a white wall with a giant 4K TV.

You travel to be in another physical place and experience things, which can't be displayed on a monitor. I don't think mobile multi-monitor is as big of a deal. A smartphone or tablet is as much mobile computing as anyone might need. And laptop docking stations already exist. The headset is about things a monitor or even three monitors can't do, full immersion.
Thanks for assuming my life. I rarely spend more than 10 days in the same place in a month. Constantly on the road. But I only have a multi-monitor setup in one location. Means work that needs a larger canvas has to be crammed into those days I'm home. Which are also the only days I can do home chores or spend time with family. If I could do my multi monitor work from the road, I could have so much more time with family. I mainly travel for work or other non leisure purposes. Did you even watch 30 seconds of the presentation? It's not about immersion at all. That's what VR is for. This is MR on a path to AR. The goal is to add in things like virtual displays to our reality as needed, not replace reality. I don't want to replace reality. I want an IMAX movie on the plane or train. I want 3 monitors waiting for my in my hotel room. That's really all I want. Seamless extra monitors for my Mac.

A display? Not a new kind of computer with a more advanced user interface? If it's just another way of looking at videos and not of interacting with data, then it's even more useless than I thought.
Personally, seeing it as just a display makes it more useful to me. I'm sure better interfaces and workflows will develop, but having multi monitor support in a travel sized package is THE killer app I've been waiting for for decades.

So it's not about fantasy and yet here you are, already fantasizing about what this technology might become in the future, like some science fiction author. Smartphone users mostly want feasible features and apps, which are absolutely doable with today's technology. But VR itself is selling the dream of entering another world of wonder, where the possibilities are limitless like on a holodeck. − He who imagines himself buying a wonderful, cheap and light VR headset of the future is already engaging in escapism from today's technological boundaries.
I'm not fantasizing. I want what this can do -- put virtual displays above my Macbook keyboard in my hotel room. Or project a large Movie theater screen in front of my airline seat. literally those two use cases are worth $3500 to me. And I'm sure it will do more than that over time.

Even books can be a form of escapism. And we're already living in the nightmare, where a Facebook algorithm can be used to manipulate voters with targeted lies. All this isn't dependent on VR technology, but VR is hiding your face behind a mask and Vision Pro is the first VR product to add back creepy virtual-eyes to give the illusion of you still being present and attentive, or so the Apple AI wants to make us believe.
I don't use facebook or other algorithmically generated content delivery systems. Waste of time and destructive to my mental health. (to be fair I do watch some streaming video, and I know they have algorithms to deliver content, but no social media at all) And again, IT'S NOT VR!! It's Mixed reality to present the illusion of Augmented reality. That's why it's cool. It adds features to real life, nothing more. It's no more nightmarish or escapist than owning a TV, computer or phone.

The CG googly eyes are DumbAF, though. Just a crutch until actual AR allows transparency of the display. And still better than no indication at all wether the person with a HMD on is looking at you or their content.

Makes sense, why stop buying drugs when your dealer wants you to continue? You might as well take the good ones and enjoy your trip for as long as it lasts. This is definitely not a dystopian mindset.
It's 2023 and we're talking online. Screens are a part of our life. I want the best onscreen expereince for the time I'm using a screen. Is it less dystopian to watch movies on VHS than streaming 4k netflix to my VisionPro? I'd argue the societal and personal costs are identical, but one is a much more pleasant experience, so I know which I'll be choosing come 2024.
 
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Jensend

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Dec 19, 2008
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The creator of Adventure Time made some great VR artworks. I even "met" him at a virtual workbench he had set up in a 3D world he had made in a VR creative tool. (And then I accidentally deleted something he was working on, but he was totally cool about it.)

I would have liked Apple to show more creative and social uses of the Vision Pro.
Yeah, wearing a 600g helmet for an hour will do wonders for your neck pain. Because looking down on your keyboard and up at your monitor isn't hard enough without that extra weight.
I use relatively heavy VR headsets, but I've never felt neck discomfort from them, rather it's pressure on my face that gets uncomfortable after a while. I think VR/AR headsets can have ergonomic advantages over a standard desktop computer setup. If you don't have a standing desk, you can just put up a platform beneath your mouse and keyboard, instead of getting a desk that can support monitors.
In the same keynote they spoke about myopia and that kids should play outside and increase their viewing distance. This headset goes in the exact opposite direction and can't be healthy for your eyes.
The focus distance of this headset is likely at a greater distance than that of typical phone, tablet, laptop, or desktop monitor. The physical distance of the screen doesn't matter, because there's a lens in front of it that adjusts the focus.
 

Gudi

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Original poster
May 3, 2013
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Berlin, Berlin
The focus distance of this headset is likely at a greater distance than that of typical phone, tablet, laptop, or desktop monitor. The physical distance of the screen doesn't matter, because there's a lens in front of it that adjusts the focus.
In the real world your eyeballs adjust focus to things far away or close by and if you only ever look at monitors less than five meters away (no matter how far away the picture appears to be) your eyes begin to lose the ability to focus on objects far away. No lens can compensate for the fact that the distance to the screen never changes.
 

Gudi

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May 3, 2013
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Berlin, Berlin
it will make a huge differnce to my posture. [...] I'm not fantasizing.
You're not dreaming at all. The benefits to your health are simply facts not yet proven by empirical evidence.
It's 2023 and we're talking online. Screens are a part of our life. [...] Is it less dystopian to watch movies on VHS than streaming 4k netflix to my VisionPro? I'd argue the societal and personal costs are identical, but one is a much more pleasant experience, so I know which I'll be choosing come 2024.
None of the other screens in your life covers your face. With a blink of an eye you can always look up from your smartphone into another persons face. The Vision Pro goes through some length to emulate this experience and hide from the fact, that there is no mixed reality at all. The image is 100% artificial and some AI decides whether a camera picture of a person right in front of you is mixed into the experience or not.
 

Stevenyo

macrumors 6502
Oct 2, 2020
305
478
You're not dreaming at all. The benefits to your health are simply facts not yet proven by empirical evidence.

The evidence is that I sit totally differently, even wearing a helmet, while not looking at a screen than while looking at a screen. Because I contort my body to the physical reality of the screen. Remove that constraint and I return to healthy sitting. Evidence already exists, I’ve been waiting decades for a product to capitalize on the evidence.
None of the other screens in your life covers your face. With a blink of an eye you can always look up from your smartphone into another persons face. The Vision Pro goes through some length to emulate this experience and hide from the fact, that there is no mixed reality at all. The image is 100% artificial and some AI decides whether a camera picture of a person right in front of you is mixed into the experience or not.
And yet, taking off your HMD is faster than finding the remote to pause the TV, or walking out of the movie theater. And just as fast as putting down the phone or iPad im holding. It’s really no different. This first gen VisionPro is meant to be worn for short sessions, when you’re focused on the content or work you’re engaging with. Someday HMD tech will be worn all day and turn off with the snap of a finger or the glance of an eye. It’s not dystopian, it’s not more distracting, it’s just a better quality viewing experience for the time we already spend on screens.
 

miatadan

macrumors regular
Apr 23, 2006
102
19
Sudbury,ON , Canada
As far as watching movies, I rather use this Vision Pro. Both Sony and Samsung introduced for 2023 98” tvs for $10,000 US dollars to be shipped later this year. First of all , too heavy and not even Oled. So if you live with someone, 2 of these Apple Vision Pro is less money than a 98” tv. In my case, I live by myself so my plan is to sell my 42” Oled tv. It can also replace iPad and Mac Mini as well as computer monitor.

Dan
 

jimbobb24

macrumors 68040
Jun 6, 2005
3,382
5,416
In the real world your eyeballs adjust focus to things far away or close by and if you only ever look at monitors less than five meters away (no matter how far away the picture appears to be) your eyes begin to lose the ability to focus on objects far away. No lens can compensate for the fact that the distance to the screen never changes.
No offense but I don’t think you understand lenses and focal distance. You physical organic lens will be adjust to look close and far virtually even though the image is fixed in physical space.
 

Gudi

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Original poster
May 3, 2013
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Berlin, Berlin
No offense but I don’t think you understand lenses and focal distance. You physical organic lens will be adjust to look close and far virtually even though the image is fixed in physical space.
No offense either, but I think you’re as much an optometrist as I am. Medical advice recommends wide open spaces, more sun light and screen distance. Vision Pro will only increase the risk for developing myopia.
 
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