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Sorry but unless a website says explicitly that you MUST install the VP8 codec the average IE9 user won't bother installing it. Giving the advantage back to h.264

:rolleyes:

If a website uses VP8 encoded video, you can bet your ass that if the browser doesn't have the appropriate codec, the user will be redirected to the download location. And exactly like Flash and other plugins today, it means everyone will have the darn thing.

So no, H.264 is disadvantaged by not being present in Firefox.
 
apple is also paying MS for iphone OS patents and features

that's the way tech works. competitors license from each other and work together.

Exactly! That is my point.

By this whole "royalty-free" stuff, Google is saying that no, you don't actually need to pay anyone anything.

MAybe I'm just naive, but I find it hard to believe that ON2 managed to create a decent codec without using any of the technologies, or knowledge that any other major A/V firm has developed/invented in the last 20 years.

Anyways, the reason I mentioned that HTC pays MS for Android, is that even if we believe that VP8 is completely royalty-free, the patent situation is so screwed up it is almost impossible that anyone will be able to use VP8 for something with significant impact without paying somebody something.

Unlike the rest of Linux, MSFT hasn't even tried to spread FUD regarding Android violating its patents. Yet HTC is paying up. The same will happen for people who use VP8 for a successful venture. Whether or not it violates patents, they will have to pay up.

And yes, I am succumbing to FUD. The reason is simple. Because in the real life, FUD often has more effect than actual violations. The HTC-MSFT (or the MSFT-Novell dela for more vanilla Linux stuff) deal was mentioned to highlight the impact FUD can have.
 
The one step forward, and two steps back approach to defining a consistent web standards continues!

Yep. But it's not like Google was going to go with H.264 and pay royalties for it (a small portion of which would end in Apple's coffers). Still, H.264 is solid and it would have been just so much simpler if it got broadly adopted as THE video standard. Oh well.
 
:rolleyes:

If a website uses VP8 encoded video, you can bet your ass that if the browser doesn't have the appropriate codec, the user will be redirected to the download location. And exactly like Flash and other plugins today, it means everyone will have the darn thing.

So no, H.264 is disadvantaged by not being present in Firefox.

x.264 not being in Firefox doesn't seem to have hurt it much considering it's now the standard and rising every week.
 
x.264 not being in Firefox doesn't seem to have hurt it much considering it's now the standard and rising every week.

It is ? Because I think right now FLV is the standard and while that does use H.264 mostly for the video codec, it's not an issue for Firefox. When the transition to HTML5 is in a fuller swing, the problem will show.

Yep. But it's not like Google was going to go with H.264 and pay royalties for it (a small portion of which would end in Apple's coffers). Still, H.264 is solid and it would have been just so much simpler if it got broadly adopted as THE video standard. Oh well.

Chrome supports H.264. Youtube's videos are encoded in H.264. Their HTML5 site started out with H.264 as the video codec. Where did you get this idea that Google wasn't going to go with H.264 ?
 
Sorry but unless a website says explicitly that you MUST install the VP8 codec the average IE9 user won't bother installing it. Giving the advantage back to h.264

I'll call your bluff with: until the average IE user decides to upgrade to IE9...

You might want to take a look at the current distribution of IE browser users. Assuming mass adoption of IE9 is not supported by the crowd still heavily using IE6, and IE7, and IE8. They're not like Mac people, who will update to the latest version of Safari as soon as it comes out. IE9 doesn't yield mass adoption of HTML5 or h.264, unless lots of IE<9 users decide to upgrade to it.

Besides, I would expect the VP8 video to work just like trying to play a Flash video without the Flash plugin. You click, it alerts you that you need a plugin, you click to download the plug in, and the video then plays. Easy, simple, well proven.

I prefer outright abolishment of the entire patent system.

Suggest that to the guy or gal who actually invents something, but lacks the deep pockets of a Microsoft, Apple, or Google to take it to market themselves.
 
FLV is a container. H.264 is a codec.

I did say that in my post, the part about FLV using H.264 as the codec. Why repeat it as if you're teaching me something ?

Work on your reading comprehension. H.264 in FLV is not a problem with Firefox. Most sites now use FLV, hence why it's not a problem. The few HTML5 sites are a Firefox problem and the solution is VP8. When more sites move to HTML5, if they don't adopt VP8, they will be blocking out 25% of web users.

Clearer now ?
 
I'll call your bluff with: until the average IE user decides to upgrade to IE9...

You might want to take a look at the current distribution of IE browser users. Assuming mass adoption of IE9 is not supported by the crowd still heavily using IE6, or IE7, or IE8. There not like Mac people, who will update to the latest version of Safari as soon as it comes out. IE9 doesn't yield mass adoption of HTML5 or h.264, unless lots of IE<9 users decide to upgrade to it.

Well see now thats the thing with PC's. When a person buys a new PC they normally they get the newest version of IE with it. This means by next year people that buy new PC's will be getting IE9.

and since we all know that the PC share is MUCH larger than the Mac share..Well you know where I'm going with this.;)
 
I care because I use Firefox. End of story.

Then let's figure out a way to get this on Firefox (and Opera). I fully support that effort - it should be made available to them (without paying). I don't want yet another file format, there are far too many already.

The only ones who lose in these wars are us, the users.

I have a question - what makes you think that if VP8 wins this battle, that there won't be another battle in a year or two? This has to end, and *we* have to be the ones at the centre of the debate, not those greedy, profit grubbing, couldn't-care-less-about-the-consumer, idiots.
 
Buying a new PC doesn't kill the old one: that's why there's still so many IE6 users all these years later. If we go with the "when they buy a new PC" concept, and consider how the crowd stretches out their PC purchase for many years (as evidenced by how many still use IE6, etc), it is many years until IE9 can show Microsoft's major adoption of HTML5 + H.264, etc.

On the other hand, if the VP8 plugin is "windows compatible" and made to run in IE versions before 9 (which just makes sense), I would guess that it's availability could drive VP8 acceptance/use growing faster on PCs vs. the pace of IE9 adoption. After all, in this scenario, VP8 could run on IE9, 8, 7, 6, etc, while HTML5 + H.264 (built into IE9- not as a plugin) is going to be IE9+ only.
 
Well see now thats the thing with PC's. When a person buys a new PC they normally they get the newest version of IE with it. This means by next year people that buy new PC's will be getting IE9.

and since we all know that the PC share is MUCH larger than the Mac share..Well you know where I'm going with this.;)

If you had any kind of point, IE8 would have seen massive adoption... Yet IE's market share is about evenly spread amongst the 3 versions available now with IE7 being the one trailing behind.

The fact is, Hobe is right. You're wrong.

Then let's figure out a way to get this on Firefox (and Opera). I fully support that effort - it should be made available to them (without paying). I don't want yet another file format, there are far too many already.

The only ones who lose in these wars are us, the users.

I have a question - what makes you think that if VP8 wins this battle, that there won't be another battle in a year or two? This has to end, and *we* have to be the ones at the centre of the debate, not those greedy, profit grubbing, couldn't-care-less-about-the-consumer, idiots.

Yes, let's stop progress so the poor users get a break. :rolleyes:

The fact is, as far as modern codecs go, there aren't far too many. There's H.264.. and... err.. H.264.

Xvid, MPEG-2, MPEG-1, Indeo, Sorenson video, Sorenson Spark are all things of the past.

No one ever died from having more than 1 format.
 
Suggest that to the guy or gal who actually invents something, but lacks the deep pockets of a Microsoft, Apple, or Google to take it to market themselves.

You're saying he is protected somehow by patents? The minute he tries to sue he'll be countersued and the case will drag out until he is out of cash.
 
Sorry but unless a website says explicitly that you MUST install the VP8 codec the average IE9 user won't bother installing it. Giving the advantage back to h.264

Not to mention, Firefox has a project to support H.264 through a plugin, so if we're counting plugins.... Firefox also goes in the H.264 column.
 
While I agree that there is no guarantee it wont be sued in the future, its laughable to suggest there isn't money in doing so right now. A majority of video on the internet now is delivered using H.264 (yes, even Flash uses it). Blu-Ray uses it. iPods, Zunes, and Android phones have H.264 decoders.

It can't be a better time to sue H.264.

I would say the there will probably be much more money in suing in a few years.

Anyway, the point was that H.264 is not somehow protected from patent lawsuits.
 
HTML5 ready for primetime?

Call me when its a standard. HTML5 has been plagued by delays for the past few years. It will have its place but the analogy being, Steve is forcing something upon the masses that is not even completed.

Call me when flash is a standard and not controlled by a single company that makes continuous changes unilaterally to ensure no one is able to develop competing software.

BTW, there is no reason to think that H.264 will be safe from patent lawsuits in the future. It's just that there isn't much money in it right now.

I am not sure there are many people outside of the MPEG-LA pool that could possibly make a claim...

Chrome is using Webkit FYI. ;-)

He never said otherwise. The open sourced project that heads Chrome development is called Chromium. That is the browser itself. The rendering engine is webkit, but a rendering engine doesn't a browser make.

I got the impression he was attempting to make some distinction between Google creating the Chromium open source project and Apple simply forking kHtml and calling it Webkit. His post certainly did not read like he knew there was any relationship between Chromium and Webkit at all.

I did say that in my post, the part about FLV using H.264 as the codec. Why repeat it as if you're teaching me something ?

Work on your reading comprehension. H.264 in FLV is not a problem with Firefox. Most sites now use FLV, hence why it's not a problem. The few HTML5 sites are a Firefox problem and the solution is VP8. When more sites move to HTML5, if they don't adopt VP8, they will be blocking out 25% of web users.

Clearer now ?

To help clarify..I don't think he knew that Firefox can play H.264 encoded video in a FLV container because flash player is licensed to use H.264.
 
Not to mention, Firefox has a project to support H.264 through a plugin, so if we're counting plugins.... Firefox also goes in the H.264 column.

You mean the Wild fox project : http://wildfox.sourceforge.net/.

Let's be serious for a minute here. Wildfox is something one guy dreamt up and registered on Sourceforge. Sure he made the front page of Slashdot (reference : http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=10/05/15/2238236) but that doesn't mean it will catch on.

Not to mention that it is not a plugin. This guy will take the Firefox source, add some H.264 support and re-compile/re-distribute the results. Hence people will have to install his browser instead of the official release (fat chance) and he will have to keep up with official releases.

Seeing how his dev pool might not be as wide as the official version by the Mozilla Foundation, it's pretty clear where this will end up. This is not a viable solution.
 
Call me when flash is a standard and not controlled by a single company that makes continuous changes unilaterally to ensure no one is able to develop competing software.

Are you talking about Adobe because if you take the word Flash out of that statement it could have been mistaken for Apple.
 
Where you talking about Adobe because if you take the word Flash out of that statement it could have been mistaken for Apple.
Call me when is a standard and not controlled by a single company that makes continuous changes unilaterally to ensure no one is able to develop competing software? :confused:

Makes no sense to me.
 
I am not sure there are many people outside of the MPEG-LA pool that could possibly make a claim...
.

There are many entities not in the MPEG-LA pool who have been going around suing folks for infringing patents by using h.264. I see a couple new suits filed each month against various defendants by various plaintiffs.
 
You're saying he is protected somehow by patents? The minute he tries to sue he'll be countersued and the case will drag out until he is out of cash.

No, I'm saying that an abolished patent system- as the original comment suggested- is not the answer. A patent system gives even the smallest-capacity company an opportunity- and motivation- to invent and potentially profit from it. An abolished patent system would make the big easily pray upon the small, kill motivation, etc.

A better option would be to significantly overhaul the patent system with concepts such as "use it or lose it" (which forces all these patented concepts to go to market or become public domain). Even the smallest inventor player could produce a few of their inventions to go to market and thus protect their patent. The main idea of "use it or lose it" is to kill the current model of deep-pocketed companies buying up patents or patenting stuff they'll never take to market solely for defensive purposes (to protect their business "as is"). Thus, you have some of the best automotive battery technology patents owned and suppressed by big oil. And you have the "razor blade" business model which basically encourages the patent holder to use ever softer metals for the blades so they can sell more blades. Etc.

Ideas such as if a "medical treatment" patent can be the basis for a "permanent cure", the inventor of the latter gains a share of the former (as a cure is a better outcome for the public). I fear that cures for some of the major diseases may be laying in safes, because as we learned from the Polio vaccine, there is tremendous money potential in the short term with a cure, but little ongoing revenue. However, a "one-a-day" treatment is an endless money stream. If you are big Pharma and you invent a cure, do you take it to market, or do you try to back it down to a treatment? These kinds of profit motivations vs. public good could be addressed via patent reform.

And so on. Bottom line: abolishing the patent system is a loser, but evolving it so that it is generally focused on the benefits of the public- and not the big, deep-pocketed companies- is certainly needed. A fundamental problem is that the richest minority is so focused on keeping things the same (to protect cash flows as is), that the rapid progress forward is hindered. The current "patents for defensive purposes" model very obviously supports the status quo.

I'd love to see the "use it or lose it" effect hit, as the massive build up of defensive patents that would have to go to market or become public domain (which could then let someone else take them to market) would probably cause an innovation explosion... and get the world moving again.
 
Sorry but unless a website says explicitly that you MUST install the VP8 codec the average IE9 user won't bother installing it. Giving the advantage back to h.264

You have a lot to learn about how IE9 codec works.

IE9 itself just taps into the codec library on the computer. The same one windows media player taps into.
So IE9 will come come package with h.264 codec to dump into the library but that is it and knowing Microsoft they will make an official add on pack that you can download to put VP8 into the library. Microsoft made an officail Xvid pack for the 360 that you download after wards and when it runs into a file that requires Xvid for the first time it links you up to marketplace with the free update. It will be something a lot like that for IE9. First time you run into something that requires VP8 it will just ask to download it from Microsoft and install it.

On top of that above a lot of the big free codec packs out there will put VP8 into theirs so by that time a lot of people will already have VP8 in their codec library so it will be a non issue.

So much for your so called theory that people would not down load it. I just showed you an example of a case other wise on how Microsoft would handle it.
 
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