Job's said it was a bag of hurt, yet ...

[phrehdd]

Apple decided not to support the optical disc. They said it was on the way out therefore, they abandoned it. What seems to be more the case is they dumped it for two reasons - get people to buy/rent via download/stream for Apple's iTune Store and in the quest for make everything THIN (optical discs just got in the way of this form over function design).

So how is it that we are starting to see yet more hardware and software being developed to further the use of the optical disc? I only hope that some of the hardware and software make its way to the Mac side in spite of Apple.

https://hdguru.com/pioneer-cyberlink-reveal-ultra-hd-blu-ray-pc-reader-bundle/

 

[MechaSpanky]

phrehdd,

You are taking his quote out of context. Here is the full quote which shows things in quite a different light.

"Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt. It's great to watch the movies, but the licensing of the tech is so complex, we're waiting till things settle down and Blu-ray takes off in the marketplace."

and his quote had nothing to do with Apple dropping optical disc support, it was merely about whether or not Apple would add Blue-ray support. That was done later. The quote is from 2008, and they were still putting optical drives in Macs then and even beyond then.

 

[phrehdd]

phrehdd,

You are taking his quote out of context. Here is the full quote which shows things in quite a different light.

"Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt. It's great to watch the movies, but the licensing of the tech is so complex, we're waiting till things settle down and Blu-ray takes off in the marketplace."

and his quote had nothing to do with Apple dropping optical disc support, it was merely about whether or not Apple would add Blue-ray support. That was done later. The quote is from 2008, and they were still putting optical drives in Macs then and even beyond then.

Actually it is all in a great context. Was there any Mac that came with a blue ray player/recorder? NO. Did Apple continue to be a high profit company that didn't want to engage in any of the licensing involved, YES. Proof was easy enough as no HD audio (as in DTS-Master as example) natively played on a Mac with OSX. You could install Plex or XBMC (now Kodi) on a Mac with OSX and yet no ability to play those lossless tracks associated with Blu Ray. The kicker is that one could install Windows on a Mac and play Blu Ray with full lossless audio tracks. Again this appears to be more about Apple not getting licensing the way it demanded and wanting also to push people towards downloads and streaming. After all this, Apple again got on its crusade of THIN is better and removing the optical disc player/writer freed up room and also allowed for thinner overall chassis on their line up.

So, I am sure you will continue to disagree with me which is fine and I will continue to believe my original post brings up the point that hardware and software players are still alive are not a major crap issue like Jobs said other than he didn't get to bully anyone into agreements he insisted upon.

 

[macmee]

http://fortune.com/2016/01/08/blu-ray-struggles-in-the-streaming-age/

There’s certainly no denying physical media sales are declining in the U.S. Sales of DVDs and Blu-ray discs fell 12% in 2015 to $6.1 billion, according to the Digital Entertainment Group after an 11% drop in 2014.

Meanwhile, digital revenues rose 18% in 2015.

Jobs was not wrong. Blu-Rays, DVDs, are well on their way out.

 

[phrehdd]

http://fortune.com/2016/01/08/blu-ray-struggles-in-the-streaming-age/



Jobs was not wrong. Blu-Rays, DVDs, are well on their way out.

The market share is slower as more means to media are made available. Instead of being the only game in town, it must compete with other forms such as download, streaming and "on demand." However, the market for both Blue Ray and DVD remain large. Movies are also coming out that are UHD Blu Ray. You might as well say that all mechanical drives are on their way out as solid state will eventually replace them yet, it will be years until such time and here we are, with a big player like Pioneer making the mechanical drive and typical media playback software makers upping the game. I am sorry if the only bag of hurt is the failure of Jobs not to see the market for what it was and is and the fact it was a pathetic excuse to help move the "THIN" movement forward.

 

[theluggage]

However, the market for both Blue Ray and DVD remain large. Movies are also coming out that are UHD Blue Ray.

Sure - I still buy BluRays, but that doesn't mean that I want or need to play them on a Mac. The sort of films I buy on BluRay are the ones I want to sit in a comfy chair and watch on a large-screen TV & decent sound system. BD players are cheap and do the job better than a Mac or PC.

You're not going to carry a box of BluRays on the road and plug them into your laptop when you could have them on HD/SSD instead, or stream them. Many discs come with a "digital copy" offer for that purpose. If not... well, use your imagination. If using a BluRay drive to rip copy-protected movies for your personal media library wasn't at best a legal grey area then that might be a use for a BluRay dive in a Mac but, as it stands, its not an application that Apple could promote or support, even if they wanted to.

BD-R/RW hasn't developed much traction for general data storage but if you absolutely need a BluRay drive it is perfectly possible to connect one via USB (I do have an external BDRW drive - it cost $trivial and spends most of its life in a cupboard, certainly not something that needs to take up permanent space in my Mac).

The idea of the "Media Centre" PC integrating all the functions you need has never really become more than niche. It's not just Apple that have dropped the "Front Row" idea, Microsoft dumped their media centre product too. I've dabbled with Media PCs, have used a homebrew PVR for years and, frankly, its more a hobby than a practical solution. The truth is that a full-fat Mac or PC sitting under your TV making noise is complete overkill when when a tiny £50 Raspberry Pi or Android TV box talking to a NAS box in another room can play back full HD without breaking a sweat.

Just browsing, I see a £300 Samsung UltraHD BD player that can do 4k, Netflix 4k, Amazon video with Plex apparently in the pipeline.

 

[aaronvan]

DVD/Blu-Ray will stick around so long as Netflix (say) only streams 0.001% of their total catalog.

 

[phrehdd]

Sure - I still buy BluRays, but that doesn't mean that I want or need to play them on a Mac. The sort of films I buy on BluRay are the ones I want to sit in a comfy chair and watch on a large-screen TV & decent sound system. BD players are cheap and do the job better than a Mac or PC.

You're not going to carry a box of BluRays on the road and plug them into your laptop when you could have them on HD/SSD instead, or stream them. Many discs come with a "digital copy" offer for that purpose. If not... well, use your imagination. If using a BluRay drive to rip copy-protected movies for your personal media library wasn't at best a legal grey area then that might be a use for a BluRay dive in a Mac but, as it stands, its not an application that Apple could promote or support, even if they wanted to.

BD-R/RW hasn't developed much traction for general data storage but if you absolutely need a BluRay drive it is perfectly possible to connect one via USB (I do have an external BDRW drive - it cost $trivial and spends most of its life in a cupboard, certainly not something that needs to take up permanent space in my Mac).

The idea of the "Media Centre" PC integrating all the functions you need has never really become more than niche. It's not just Apple that have dropped the "Front Row" idea, Microsoft dumped their media centre product too. I've dabbled with Media PCs, have used a homebrew PVR for years and, frankly, its more a hobby than a practical solution. The truth is that a full-fat Mac or PC sitting under your TV making noise is complete overkill when when a tiny £50 Raspberry Pi or Android TV box talking to a NAS box in another room can play back full HD without breaking a sweat.

Just browsing, I see a £300 Samsung UltraHD BD player that can do 4k, Netflix 4k, Amazon video with Plex apparently in the pipeline.

Funny how Apple had iMovie and iDVD etc., and had a love affair with discs until it no longer suited their needs then when they couldn't get certain licensing agreements in a way they wanted then all of a sudden BD was a bag of hurt. Only hurt was that supporting it would cut into their profits and hardware FORM over function direction. As we see, plenty of people still buy disc players/writers. I am glad that Pioneer adds to the list. We may find these discs useful for gamers, movie fans, interim archival backups and more.

 

[theluggage]

Funny how Apple had iMovie and iDVD etc., and had a love affair with discs until it no longer suited their needs.

Yeah, because that had noting to do with the arrival of better ways to play digital content on your TV that didn't involve faffing around with temperamental optical disc writers (with a half life of about 6 months) that took half an hour to produce what frequently turned out to be an expensive drinks coaster. I've been using optical drives since CD-R first came out and, frankly, good riddance - using a technology designed for mass production of pre-recorded discs for DIY storage was always a kludge.

You're also still totally confusing Steve's 2008 "Bag of hurt" statement (at a time when Blu Ray and HD DVD were in a Betamax war) with the dropping of optical drives from laptops in 2012*. If I recall correctly, the licensing for Blu-Ray hardware & software was a bag of hurt - with a laundry list of different patent-encumbered codecs, requirements for end-to-end copy protection, reliance on Java etc.

My experience with PCs with built-in BluRay players is that either you need additional software to play movies from day one or, 6 months down the line, the bundled software refused to play recently purchased discs unless you paid for an upgrade. I can see that not going down well with Jobs. I do have a Panasonic BD/BD-R/HD PVR box and, quite frankly, its so bogged down with DRM restrictions that it is almost useless for anything other than playing movies.

As we see, plenty of people still buy disc players/writers.

Sure - its a good way of watching high-quality movies on your "home theatre". That doesn't mean you need one in your laptop. It's not like you can't get BD writers and software for your Mac if you need them - and, as I said, nobody is going to publicly promote ripping movies to disc as a selling point.

Archival? Nah - they're probably no longer-lived than hard drives, and HDs store vastly more, are vastly faster and thus easier to replicate and re-back-up. The inconvenient truth about archival is that digital archives have to be actively maintained.

(*and, even then, its a little remembered fact that as well as launching the disc/ethernet/firewire-less rMBP in 2012, they also gave the "classic" MBP a decentCPU/GPU upgrade to keep it current for another year for those not ready for the switch - Mr "well, you can still buy the lowest spec 2015 model at full price" Cook please take note!)

 

[phrehdd]

re - last post

I spoke of each of the main points you mentioned. I find it amusing that you had so many coffee coasters and a writer that didn't last (I have had not only IDE based CD disc writers last , and SCSI jukebox style readers but two external blu ray writers with one being firewire and the other being usb3). You seem to have bad luck.

The bag of hurt as I mentioned had to deal with the licensing agreements that Apple tried to get for nothing and failed. It was amusing to see both Windows and Linux would support HD audio yet OSX would not. Jobs simply did not like what he could not control. We get that and we always have. Apple promoted the notion that optical discs were a thing of the past as the next progression to keep people into the download/stream direction. Meanwhile, DVD and Blu Ray continued, newer players were out there, software support (other than on Apple) was out there and life went on in spit of Job's whine and Apple's less than truth to the public rationalization for their removal of those drives (and the bays they could have kept to rotate in another drive unit of another sort).

Bottom line is that the latest incarnation of optical disc is enjoying a receptive audience with 4K TVs and computer screens to support them, Windows (AGAIN) is taking the lead on future playback of the discs (with newer hardware considerations) and more. I am glad Pioneer has put forth the effort for the computer user.

 

[darngooddesign]

So, I am sure you will continue to disagree with me which is fine and I will continue to believe my original post brings up the point that hardware and software players are still alive are not a major crap issue like Jobs said other than he didn't get to bully anyone into agreements he insisted upon.

You can believe what you want but he was specifically referring to Blu-Ray. Considering they made the external SuperDrive long after that statement, it's obvious he wasn't referring to all optical formats. We get that you just wanted to make a Apple sux type post.

 

[phrehdd]

You can believe what you want but he was specifically referring to Blu-Ray. Considering they made the external SuperDrive long after that statement, it's obvious he wasn't referring to all optical formats. We get that you just wanted to make a Apple sux type post.

What don't you understand? This is all tied together.

1) Not wanting to go with anything blu ray.
2) announcing that the optical drive is dead or no longer relevant.
3) phasing out the optical disc player on Mac devices
4) promoting on line service (iTunes) also makes items 1 and 2 an advantage (marketing-wise in Apple's eyes)
5) With respect to item three, this allows for Apple to go thinner, also rationalized by item 2, and of course perpetuated by item 1 (meaning continued desire not to approach anything blu ray in nature).

Take the last word and lets be done with this.

 

[an-other]

As an outside observer to this topic, methinks the media companies/studios are wanting physical media to disappear. They're seeking a model where they get reimbursed for every play.

I'm not saying that's ever going to happen specifically. Just a long scan of the horizon.

 

[richinaus]

I believe it was the 100% correct thing to do removing the cd / DVD player.
There was a period of about a year it was a slight issue and I used the external player, otherwise I am more than happy to see the back of it.

The thing for me I most despise about discs and packaging is the volume of materials required to make them rather than digital takes up no space and is always with you.

Buy an external player if you need to, but I certainly don't want one in my computers - absolutely no need for it for most.
You keep consuming and using more of the worlds resources just so you can have even higher res content, whilst I hope the rest of the world is happy with the current situation, which in my eyes is fantastic [happy with movie quality and sound on my streamed media habits].

As an aside, we have not purchased a dvd or cd in years. I am struggling to remember the last time I did, especially a music CD. The same will happen with current media. Something always better next, whilst you have added to the world landfill of unnecessary crap [new player, new discs blah blah].

 

[phrehdd]

I believe it was the 100% correct thing to do removing the cd / DVD player.
There was a period of about a year it was a slight issue and I used the external player, otherwise I am more than happy to see the back of it.

The thing for me I most despise about discs and packaging is the volume of materials required to make them rather than digital takes up no space and is always with you.

Buy an external player if you need to, but I certainly don't want one in my computers - absolutely no need for it for most.
You keep consuming and using more of the worlds resources just so you can have even higher res content, whilst I hope the rest of the world is happy with the current situation, which in my eyes is fantastic [happy with movie quality and sound on my streamed media habits].

As an aside, we have not purchased a dvd or cd in years. I am struggling to remember the last time I did, especially a music CD. The same will happen with current media. Something always better next, whilst you have added to the world landfill of unnecessary crap [new player, new discs blah blah].

So what do you buy for music?

 

[Septembersrain]

Honestly everyone I know either has a streaming service, buys online or they pirate (Don't do this folks). So having a CD/Blu Ray disk doesn't seem as important as it did years ago.

 

[richinaus]

Honestly everyone I know either has a streaming service, buys online or they pirate (Don't do this folks). So having a CD/Blu Ray disk doesn't seem as important as it did years ago.

I do this - stream it / download [all music / video / magazines / books]. Our blue ray player we got with the TV was given away recently. Not used in ages.
I have absolutely no idea why anyone really needs to buy physical media anymore, except for audiophiles etc.

You could say my house is very minimal and I love it. Fair enough to people who want physical media, but please be aware of the resources you are using. I would love to know where all the old VHS tapes went..............maybe the same landfill they put all those Atari cartridges dug up a few years ago [ET game I think]. Great.

 

[phrehdd]

I do this - stream it / download [all music / video / magazines / books]. Our blue ray player we got with the TV was given away recently. Not used in ages.
I have absolutely no idea why anyone really needs to buy physical media anymore, except for audiophiles etc.

You could say my house is very minimal and I love it. Fair enough to people who want physical media, but please be aware of the resources you are using. I would love to know where all the old VHS tapes went..............maybe the same landfill they put all those Atari cartridges dug up a few years ago [ET game I think]. Great.

Well we are in agreement on one thing and please don't take this as being rude. Many people these days don't really care about quality or are able to discern the difference between mediocre, good and excellent. Go to any av site and folks there (both contributors and folks like you and me) that for 1080p playback, blu ray is the best for both audio(HD) and video. Streaming is okay but not nearly as good. A similar argument might be made for audio but alas, iTune music when done right is "close enough" for most people. I happen to prefer higher quality on certain recordings but not for all. I also can say just because AAC is pretty good compression that all recordings sound good. So choose what works for you. I'll stick with blu ray on "keepers" and CD quality or better on well engineered works for now. Hope you keep enjoying your means to entertainment with your downloads/streaming.

 

[richinaus]

Well we are in agreement on one thing and please don't take this as being rude. Many people these days don't really care about quality or are able to discern the difference between mediocre, good and excellent. Go to any av site and folks there (both contributors and folks like you and me) that for 1080p playback, blue ray is the best for both audio(HD) and video. Streaming is okay but not nearly as good. A similar argument might be made for audio but alas, iTune music when done right is "close enough" for most people. I happen to prefer higher quality on certain recordings but not for all. I also can say just because AAC is pretty good compression that all recordings sound good. So choose what works for you. I'll stick with blue ray on "keepers" and CD quality or better on well engineered works for now. Hope you keep enjoying your means to entertainment with your downloads/streaming.

I can completely appreciate your point of view. I am able to discern the difference in the Audio and Video on higher quality media and equipment and love having high quality displays on my computers. I used to want all the best gear and have had decent systems in the past [I remember lusting after a standalone CD player over 25 years ago now............], however have grown out of the need, as I feel most media now is 'good enough'. I know streaming is not as good as a blu ray, but agree the streams from Apple are absolutely fine [for most people].

It's the point that I realised that I collected VHS, then CD's, then DVD's, then Blu ray , sometimes buying the same film several times [star wars is a good example - and now I want to buy the digital version so I think maybe 4 versions of it in total]. All of this goes in the bin once a new higher res version comes out. It is a total waste

I don't know how old you are but the point is the 'keepers' aren't keepers when something better comes out [star wars a perfect example], and I have absolutely no doubt it will, and your media will just join the same landfill as everything else, when the next thing comes out - 8K?

BTW - I have a load of vinyl still. CD never out did that for me for the warmth of sound

 

[phrehdd]

I can completely appreciate your point of view. I am able to discern the difference in the Audio and Video on higher quality media and equipment and love having high quality displays on my computers. I used to want all the best gear and have had decent systems in the past [I remember lusting after a standalone CD player over 25 years ago now............], however have grown out of the need, as I feel most media now is 'good enough'. I know streaming is not as good as a blu ray, but agree the streams from Apple are absolutely fine [for most people].

It's the point that I realised that I collected VHS, then CD's, then DVD's, then Blu ray , sometimes buying the same film several times [star wars is a good example - and now I want to buy the digital version so I think maybe 4 versions of it in total]. All of this goes in the bin once a new higher res version comes out. It is a total waste

I don't know how old you are but the point is the 'keepers' aren't keepers when something better comes out [star wars a perfect example], and I have absolutely no doubt it will, and your media will just join the same landfill as everything else, when the next thing comes out - 8K?

BTW - I have a load of vinyl still. CD never out did that for me for the warmth of sound

CD, DVD and Blu Ray can all be played from the same hardware if one buys a blu ray player. Some will play other formats as well. I never liked VHS but it was beyond popular in the day as it was the first of the home capable recording material (other than betamax which Sony screwed up on in trying to control its market).

As for digital versions - buying blu ray sometimes allows for "ultra violet" copies which is a nice bonus (digital copies that can be streamed if your blu ray is not within reach). I have done this with a couple of discs. Was not too bad but not as good as the disc itself. As for 4k and 8k, all movies other than maybe the last 3 years, I find no need to go to 4k as 1080p properly mastered looks darn good and especially on a good size screen at the proper distance. Sadly, some 4k "versions" may not look that good as certain special effects will look (with that detail) possibly faked/bad/unreal, and like DVD, may be just digital dumps rather than mastered for 4k. So I'll enjoy my set up, appreciate my AVR being balanced fractionally "warm" and my speakers being fractionally warm so I too, like yourself can appreciate a sound closer to vinyl though you got the real deal. (I haven't touch my vinyl collection in decades including a very very warn out original of a few Beatles albums.

 

[Rkuda]

Why are you bitching now ~5 years after Apple stopped putting any optical reader in their new computers?

Who gives a ****.

 

[Beachguy]

I have the DVD player in my two MacBook Pro machines. Never used it in either. Haven't played a DVD on my DVD player attached to me TV either in ages. I save on cleaning discs.

 

[Gasu E.]

Actually it is all in a great context. Was there any Mac that came with a blue ray player/recorder? NO.

Why would you need this built-in, as opposed to a peripheral? Apple's business model is to limit the number of system SKUs; what is the justification for expending one of these SKUs on a system with a built-in blue ray player? Was the market for that bigger than for adding some other option?

The issue for this, as with most of these product configuration option questions, is market size. Does the size of the market justify the additional cost of stocking additional configurations, with the comensurate millions of dollars in idle inventory needed to support them?

 

[phrehdd]

Why would you need this built-in, as opposed to a peripheral? Apple's business model is to limit the number of system SKUs; what is the justification for expending one of these SKUs on a system with a built-in blue ray player? Was the market for that bigger than for adding some other option?

The issue for this, as with most of these product configuration option questions, is market size. Does the size of the market justify the additional cost of stocking additional configurations, with the comensurate millions of dollars in idle inventory needed to support them?

Gasu, respectfully I disagree with your comment. It appears that Apple not only chose to remove the optical disc but also to absolutely not support any proper Blu Ray playback. Whether you have disc or file from disc, the HD audio will not play back under OSX or MacOS yet if Windows is installed, an app running on can address the hd audio (as example DTS-Master). We may agree however that Apple gets rid of a "burden" and also guides people towards their download/streaming services. As for skews, well alas - Apple went for their thin at all cost motto which makes the optical disc one of the first items to go and I don't believe skew had anything to do with it as we see in some of the device line ups the BTO with soldered in parts (meaning they have to have multiple combinations to sell of RAM and CPU and possibly GPU).

 

[downtherabbithole]

I can't think of one reason for wanting an optical drive. I'm not blind to Apple making poor decisions but when was the last time someone gave you a disk? Data needs to be in the cloud in 2017.