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whooleytoo

macrumors 604
Aug 2, 2002
6,607
716
Cork, Ireland.
Apple set up its Irish sub in the 1980's by entering into an R&D sharing agreement. Under its terms the Irish sub paid one-half of Apple's R&D costs which were incurred in the U.S. and which contributed to the U.S. economy. In return, the Irish sub received the right to license the product of the R&D, intellectual property, which it sold to sales organizations doing business throughout the world other than in the Americas. An ignorant public and comedians can lash back all it wants, but Apple has absolutely nothing to apologize for. Nor does Congress. There is no fair tax law that can subject profits from operations outside the U.S. to U.S. taxes. Remember, Apple has already paid taxes in all these countries, including their much higher employment taxes and obligations. Unless the profits inure to the benefit of some U.S. domiciled company, which they do not, there is no nexus to the U.S. that justifies American taxation. Since Apple sells twice as much outside the U.S. than inside it, it should be no surprise that its U.S. tax bill is not based on its worldwide GAAP income.

Interesting, I hadn't heard about the cost-sharing agreement.

For what it's worth, I don't think Apple has done anything illegal, and given this is a cross-jurisdictional issue I'm not certain Congress could really do much about it anyhow.

IMO though, this is just the tip of the iceberg, the issue is bigger than just Apple, or even the US (there's a similar furore in the UK at the moment, and other companies have been heavily criticised - Google and Starbucks among them). It seems to me that tax law needs to be simplified and harmonised to a greater degree across borders. Few people voluntarily pay tax they can avoid, and Apple (and others) have mastered tax avoidance by exploiting cross-border differences in tax law.

You could argue taxes should be lower, or some taxes eliminated entirely, fair enough. But it should be the same for all. An American, or Irish company shouldn't have to pay more tax than a multinational with American and Irish branches. It's not just a "fairness" argument, it's also a practical one. Smaller domestic companies shouldn't pay more tax than larger multinational companies with greater revenue.

Apple's reward for their endeavour and enterprise is their massive revenue and profits; they don't need to be doubly-rewarded with a lower tax rate any more than they should be doubly-penalised by being taxed twice.

I think this issue is just going to expand into a wider discussion involving more companies than Apple and more countries than just the US.
 

mcrain

macrumors 68000
Feb 8, 2002
1,773
12
Illinois
Other countries tax the income of corporations/entities as they make it. The US allows companies to avoid taxation until the money is repatriated. The simple solution is to just tax all income when it is earned, regardless of where it is.
 

PeterQVenkman

macrumors 68020
Mar 4, 2005
2,023
0
Yeah what a nutjob right? Instead of making false accusations and propagating fear and paranoia he is just speaking the truth. How will he get traffic? He should apparently take cues from Faux News!

I love Jon Stewart - but he is a comedian. His best rants are often filled with logical fallacies and cherry picked stats - but I'm OK with that, since he makes me laugh.

Don't for one second think you are getting the whole truth from him and his writers. They aren't that smart, or at the very least, they aren't that diligent as journalists.
 

rdowns

macrumors Penryn
Jul 11, 2003
27,397
12,521
I love Jon Stewart - but he is a comedian. His best rants are often filled with logical fallacies and cherry picked stats - but I'm OK with that, since he makes me laugh.

Don't for one second think you are getting the whole truth from him and his writers. They aren't that smart, or at the very least, they aren't that diligent as journalists.


You often get more truth from the Daily Show than you do in the media.
 

AppleDroid

macrumors 6502a
Apr 10, 2011
631
84
Illinois
Yes let's downplay the government targeting Apple to make them an example of eeeeevil corprations trying to screw the poor widdle govermmit.

I'm sorry but I cannot take you seriously with that avatar. ignore.

Also I have no problem with US corps paying taxes even if they try to get out of it by shoring them out of the country. In fact how about they redo the tax code so small businesses don't have to have 10k deductions every year so we don't have to pay upwards near 40-50%?
 

whooleytoo

macrumors 604
Aug 2, 2002
6,607
716
Cork, Ireland.
You often get more truth from the Daily Show than you do in the media.

Yeah, the phrase "diligent as journalists" seems almost ironic these days. They're now in a race against social media/blogs to get the story out first - and it doesn't matter much if the social media gets it wrong; whereas previously they'd sit on a story until they had it confirmed.
 

rdowns

macrumors Penryn
Jul 11, 2003
27,397
12,521
Yeah, the phrase "diligent as journalists" seems almost ironic these days. They're now in a race against social media/blogs to get the story out first - and it doesn't matter much if the social media gets it wrong; whereas previously they'd sit on a story until they had it confirmed.


Not only that but I've found social media and 'citizen journalists' often get it faster and more accurate than our media. That's not to say they don't both get things wrong.
 

krravi

macrumors 65816
Nov 30, 2010
1,173
0
I love Jon Stewart - but he is a comedian. His best rants are often filled with logical fallacies and cherry picked stats - but I'm OK with that, since he makes me laugh.

Don't for one second think you are getting the whole truth from him and his writers. They aren't that smart, or at the very least, they aren't that diligent as journalists.

I have never seen him make a show filled with logical fallacies. He just distills the issue down to the core, sort of like being in a time warp cutting through all the BS.

Jon stewart's writers or Colbert's for that matter are the smartest bunch I have come across in media in general.

Journalist's diligence? How many more CNN or Faux News take downs do you have to see on his show?
 

PeterQVenkman

macrumors 68020
Mar 4, 2005
2,023
0
I have never seen him make a show filled with logical fallacies.

Then you aren't looking closely enough. I don't mean his whole show is filled with them. Some of his best humor is, though, which is why he is funny, but he's also why I don't cite him in much serious debate.

He just distills the issue down to the core, sort of like being in a time warp cutting through all the BS.

He often over-simplifies to make a joke. Which again, is OK since that's why I watch! He can't go too in depth in a 22 minute broadcast. His extended interviews are more interesting to me, but I've seen him misquote stats and use straw men with the best of them. My biggest gripe is when he and a guest disagree, and rather than hear the full conversation, he interrupts to make a joke. It throws off the discussion and quite often is used to dodge the strongest arguments of his guests, rather than discuss them head on.

Every time that happens and I get frustrated, I remind myself that he is a comedian.

I saw Colbert interviewing a scientist with a cheap, amazing water filtration system for areas with no power or potable water, and he kept interrupting this amazing guest to crack jokes about Doritos, who sponsored that particular show. It was a shame, and a waste of a guest with an invention that needed Colbert's publicity bump.

I like JS a little more as an interviewer, and I think I might like Colbert a little more during his news segments speaking to the camera.

Jon stewart's writers or Colbert's for that matter are the smartest bunch I have come across in media in general.

They are pretty good, though I suspect there is some confirmation bias leaking in there. We watch JS for the same reasons other people watch other networks.

Journalist's diligence? How many more CNN or Faux News take downs do you have to see on his show?

I never brought up CNN or Fox, but I do think Jon Stewart is at his best when he takes a network to task and uses their own footage to do it.
 

Nunyabinez

macrumors 68000
Apr 27, 2010
1,758
2,230
Provo, UT
I've just assumed through all this that Apple has the same tax accountants as Mitt Romney! :D

It's hilarious how people get frustrated when someone else LEGALLY pays the minimum tax that they have to according to the tax code. Did you pay more tax than you had to? I'll bet half the people complaining about the Romney's and Apple's of the world are quietly praying that the IRS doesn't look too closely at their taxes to make sure they really paid as much as they were supposed to.
 

krravi

macrumors 65816
Nov 30, 2010
1,173
0
Then you aren't looking closely enough. I don't mean his whole show is filled with them. Some of his best humor is, though, which is why he is funny, but he's also why I don't cite him in much serious debate.



He often over-simplifies to make a joke. Which again, is OK since that's why I watch! He can't go too in depth in a 22 minute broadcast. His extended interviews are more interesting to me, but I've seen him misquote stats and use straw men with the best of them. My biggest gripe is when he and a guest disagree, and rather than hear the full conversation, he interrupts to make a joke. It throws off the discussion and quite often is used to dodge the strongest arguments of his guests, rather than discuss them head on.

Every time that happens and I get frustrated, I remind myself that he is a comedian.

I saw Colbert interviewing a scientist with a cheap, amazing water filtration system for areas with no power or potable water, and he kept interrupting this amazing guest to crack jokes about Doritos, who sponsored that particular show. It was a shame, and a waste of a guest with an invention that needed Colbert's publicity bump.

I like JS a little more as an interviewer, and I think I might like Colbert a little more during his news segments speaking to the camera.



They are pretty good, though I suspect there is some confirmation bias leaking in there. We watch JS for the same reasons other people watch other networks.



I never brought up CNN or Fox, but I do think Jon Stewart is at his best when he takes a network to task and uses their own footage to do it.

I agree with all you said. But here is is dilemna. He is a very keen observer of things happening around him looking at it with a comedic glass if you will and has to present it all within a 22 minute period. He can neither make it entirely funny or serious but strike a balance somewhere in between.

So given the constraints and some of the very loaded topics or problems in this society he does a pretty good job of making us think and laugh at the same time. He is not a truth seer per se, but more like a thought catalyst.

I agree about his interviews. His interview with Donald Rumsfeld was the most awkward.

Yesterday colbert had one of his finest episodes and I couldn't stop laughing when he said to his guest Chivers.."Why doesn't syria look towards its neighbor which is a strong democratic, free and peaceful country, Iraq".

But at times he plays his faux character too strongly and keeps interrupting the guest. That's why Ben Kingsley would have none of it and kept pushing back.

All said, with 24 hour networks inventing and reinventing stories all day, JS lets me get down to the gist of it(issues or whatever catches his fancy).I don't rely on him for news.
 

MacDav

macrumors 65816
Mar 24, 2004
1,031
0
I'm not the biggest fan of Obama, but if you would think that he is the first president to be accused of having used, as opposed to proven of using, the IRS as a weapon, you really are as misinformed and ignorant as you portray yourself.

Nice strawman argument. Nowhere does he say "this is/or was the only president to be accused of having used, as opposed to proven of using, the IRS as a weapon". Only you said that and then attacked what you said. So are you angry at yourself? :)
 

vvswarup

macrumors 6502a
Jul 21, 2010
544
225
Other countries tax the income of corporations/entities as they make it. The US allows companies to avoid taxation until the money is repatriated. The simple solution is to just tax all income when it is earned, regardless of where it is.

Other countries have a territorial tax system. Profits earned in a foreign country are not taxable in the domestic country.

The US is one of the few countries that has a worldwide tax system, except that taxes are deferred until brought into the US.
 

Cartaphilus

macrumors 6502a
Dec 24, 2007
581
65
..,It seems to me that tax law needs to be simplified and harmonised to a greater degree across borders. Few people voluntarily pay tax they can avoid, and Apple (and others) have mastered tax avoidance by exploiting cross-border differences in tax law.

You could argue taxes should be lower, or some taxes eliminated entirely, fair enough. But it should be the same for all. An American, or Irish company shouldn't have to pay more tax than a multinational with American and Irish branches. It's not just a "fairness" argument, it's also a practical one. Smaller domestic companies shouldn't pay more tax than larger multinational companies with greater revenue..,

I think this issue is just going to expand into a wider discussion involving more companies than Apple and more countries than just the US.

The great challenge in international taxation is the wide divergence in total government-imposed burden or benefit in the country. For example, many European countries impose much higher worker retirement fund contributions than the U.S. does, as well as more mandatory paid holidays and vacations, higher minimum wage, and higher termination payments. The U.S. corporate rate is applied to taxable income after deductions, treatments, and credits that are entirely different from those in Europe. There is no simple way to compare the rate applied in the U.S. to the notional rates of other countries, nor is it fair, since one country may provide work training, cheap leases of property, development of expensive infrastructure (roads, bridges, ports) that another does not. Relative borrowing costs, regulatory burdens, exchange rate volatility, and security costs are also are important variables.

Countries compete for economic activity, and their corporate tax rate---as well as all the other factors I've mentioned---are among the tools they compete with. Today there are many choices multinational companies can make when deciding where to do business--the world is much flatter. If all companies paid the same tax rate regardless of where they operated it would turn the chessboard over, as the removal of an important factor would change the optimum location for each operation.

Each country knows how it can best attract business, and the competition ensures the lowest cost of production and the lowest price, theoretically, to consumers. If Bermuda, which has few natural advantages, wishes to offer low tax rates to attract business to improve its citizens' lives it should be allowed to. If being in Silicon Valley is important to a company, it will deal with a higher rate. Let what is earned in Bermuda be assessed Bermudian rates, and let what is earned in the U.S. be taxed by the U.S.
Some countries will get more tax revenue, and others will get more business and jobs. Let each country decide what it needs more. But if the U.S. loses the competition for a new plant to Bermuda it shouldn't be able to retaliate by imposing its own additional tax on the extra profit from the plant In Bermuda, at least if the profit stays in the Bermudian subsidiary.

There are hundreds of well-understood rules regarding international taxation that bureaucrats, accountants, tax court judges, and lots of lawyers and consultants all over the world have known very well for decades. Sure there are attempts to push the envelope, but there are everyday processes to catch them.

Apple earns a great deal of its worldwide GAAP reported profit in places where it pays low corporate income tax, leading to a disparity between the notional corporate tax rate on U.S.-derived taxable income and the percentage of worldwide GAAP profit that Apple pays. If Apple were to dividend its foreign profits to a U.S.-based corporate entity if would pay tax on that amount, but Apple would rather keep those after-tax profits abroad. Apple now sells twice as much outside the U.S. than in its domestic markets, and it surprises no one that Apple's average tax rate worldwide is not the U.S. rate.

The system isn't broken, and it's been this way for a very long time. When times get tough, and governments need cash, they may reexamine their longstanding policies to boost revenues. When U.S. companies derived most of their income from U.S. customers, and when their operations were almost entirely in the U.S., these questions were not raised.

Tax laws, like most laws, may be either fair or simple, but not both, and fairness is better.
 
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3282868

macrumors 603
Jan 8, 2009
5,281
0
Cute... the fact they call it "free" healthcare shows the idiots running Comedy Central have a very poor economic understanding of the world... though, they're hilarious so it's all good....

How so? Explain.

Being born in London, and having lived in nations with healthcare provided with superior education without mortgaging homes or student loans with 29.99% interest rates as their taxes don't pay for a near 50% military budget. Perhaps the U.S. should prioritize their federal tax system to address other needs as well. It should be alarming that we outspend other first world nations in our military, even more so N. Korea 75 to 1.

Certainly it's not "free", it's paid with taxes. As a diabetic since 12 (now 36), I take excellent care of myself yet I spend hundreds a month on Blue Cross Blue Shield Excellus in addition to outrageous taxes. I'd rather have my tax dollars spent on more important things than fitting a military system to fight oil and "democracy".
 

Digitalclips

macrumors 65816
Mar 16, 2006
1,475
36
Sarasota, Florida
Apple set up its Irish sub in the 1980's by entering into an R&D sharing agreement. Under its terms the Irish sub paid one-half of Apple's R&D costs which were incurred in the U.S. and which contributed to the U.S. economy. In return, the Irish sub received the right to license the product of the R&D, intellectual property, which it sold to sales organizations doing business throughout the world other than in the Americas. An ignorant public and comedians can lash back all it wants, but Apple has absolutely nothing to apologize for. Nor does Congress. There is no fair tax law that can subject profits from operations outside the U.S. to U.S. taxes. Remember, Apple has already paid taxes in all these countries, including their much higher employment taxes and obligations. Unless the profits inure to the benefit of some U.S. domiciled company, which they do not, there is no nexus to the U.S. that justifies American taxation. Since Apple sells twice as much outside the U.S. than inside it, it should be no surprise that its U.S. tax bill is not based on its worldwide GAAP income.

Remember that Apple did not sell or transfer IP to its Irish sub, as is common, and part of the tax management strategy employed by Microsoft; Ireland earned its right to charge royalties on Apple R&D by taking the risk of paying for R&D that may never have produced anything worthwhile. Apple famously flirted with bankruptcy after Ireland had been paying R&D expenses for years. That Apple recovered and generated billions in sales outside the Americas was fortunate for Apple and fortunate for its Irish sub.

Uniformed, uneducated, and unsophisticated senators, comedians, and posters can criticize Apple all they like, but it doesn't make them right.

I remember touring that facility in the early 1980s. Thank you for an excellent post.
 

canman4PM

macrumors 6502
Mar 8, 2012
299
30
Kelowna BC
Yeah, but Corporations don't pass bills; Congress does. In this situation it's the voters who are bad for reelecting corrupt politicians who create the mess, not the companies taking advantage of voter stupidity.

You are, of course, assuming there are honest politicians for the dumb voters to vote for...

----------

Except that somebody who doesn't have the money won't win because they won't get their message out there as well. It's just how it is. If you see one person with 400 ads and another with 40, you'll remember the guy with 400 because they had 400 ads.

What he said...

----------

I have never seen him make a show filled with logical fallacies. He just distills the issue down to the core, sort of like being in a time warp cutting through all the BS.

Jon stewart's writers or Colbert's for that matter are the smartest bunch I have come across in media in general.

Journalist's diligence? How many more CNN or Faux News take downs do you have to see on his show?

I seem to remember one he showed 2 weeks ago where the 2 journalists were supposed to be in 2 different cities, and they were in the same parking lot about 80 meters apart.
 
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samiwas

macrumors 68000
Aug 26, 2006
1,598
3,579
Atlanta, GA
Yeah, but Corporations don't pass bills; Congress does. In this situation it's the voters who are bad for reelecting corrupt politicians who create the mess, not the companies taking advantage of voter stupidity.

So that "personal responsibility" thing doesn't apply to companies, I guess. Unless they make it illegal to avoid taxes, then avoid at will. But if a poor person doesn't have to pay because they don't make enough, then they need to learn "personal responsibility"! Funny how it all works out.

It's hilarious how people get frustrated when someone else LEGALLY pays the minimum tax that they have to according to the tax code. Did you pay more tax than you had to? I'll bet half the people complaining about the Romney's and Apple's of the world are quietly praying that the IRS doesn't look too closely at their taxes to make sure they really paid as much as they were supposed to.

I often pay more than I have to, by not taking all the deductions that I can. And I have, on more than one occasion, had the IRS come back to me and ask for more because they found something I did wrong in my taxes. It was a mistake on my end. Did I fight and argue about it? No, I paid it. Because I actually have a conscience to pay for it all.


Apple hasn't done any wrong and all this "follow the spirit of the law" bulls**t is ****ing insulting to hear from these slimy politicians.

And, you know this for a fact? Seeing that you don't believe in the spirit of the law, and do believe in manipulating any loophole to your maximum benefit says enough.
 
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