Judge Grills Tim Cook on App Store Policies as End of of Epic Games v. Apple Trial Approaches

[gregmancuso]

Uber, Amazon, Best Buy, etc not having to pay is clearly an issue.

But the judge cleverly used WF as an example because Apple came out and said the reason they charge is because of all the API’s they develop and maintain.

Well, apps that don’t have any transactions whatsoever use those API’s too. The cost of a developer license should cover the costs associated with running the App Store. Right now, it’s essentially given away for pennies and gaming apps are stuck subsidizing everyone else.

Actually any bank app is basically a bad example. They are, for the most part, web views wrapped in an app launcher. Same goes for the Workday app. That one is worse. It is obviously a web view if you interactive with it and the web client, but the app must use a separate URI since 1/2 the functionality of the mobile web page is blocked.

None of these apps are the products sold or supported by the companies. They are all simple interfaces to allow the customers accesss to the actual services - the bank accounts, the company time entry or expense reports pages, etc.

 

[mnsportsgeek]

There are plenty of paid apps that are not games.

And many of them have loopholes to avoid paying a 30% cut if they want to.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

This I agree with. Apple is in NO WAY a monopoly since Android exists. But going after the true monopolies gets ignores. Hmm perfect example is Spectrum. That is the ONLY ISP in my area. And I absolutely cannot stand spectrum. I have nothing but issues with them. Why don't we go after that type of monopoly?

Ooooo... Me too! Spectrum is THE provider, so decries the township board.

Oh, sure, I can get U-Verse, or a no brand DSL provider. I guess we Do have choices, but really, do we?

And the state muckitymucks have eliminated the ability for local governments to start their own ISP, or broadband services.

I got a quote to provide service here for 'synchronous' fiber based service mind you, (and there is an AT&T fiber bundle running under my driveway), and, per month, it was $2,500. Just for service, a drop. Installation was going to run well into the 5 figures. And I have AT&T fiber, MULTIPLE FIBERS, running under my driveway.

And yet somehow I'm also in a Spectrum 'dead zone'.

And this is America, in 2021, and yeah, people in Europe are getting full synchronous fiber TO THEIR HOMES for a hundred dollars a month! \

Hey, AT&T, maybe you wouldn't have network problems if you just gave everyone an entrance ramp onto your fast as heck fiber, and charged them $100 a month. I'm sure my traffic wouldn't even be noticed on a terabit fiber line. Not noticed at all. (Honest)

 

[Ethosik]

The difference between Apple/Google and game consoles is that stores on gaming consoles charge everyone the same fee, and there aren’t thousands of free games that don’t ever have to pay anything.

Apple and Google arbitrarily choose who pays and who free loads.

They charge 30% while Apple charges 15% in certain conditions.

 

[mnsportsgeek]

Actually any bank app is basically a bad example. They are, for the most part, web views wrapped in an app launcher. Same goes for the Workday app. That one is worse. It is obviously a web view if you interactive with it and the web client, but the app must use a separate URI since 1/2 the functionality of the mobile web page is blocked.

None of these apps are the products sold or supported by the companies. They are all simple interfaces to allow the customers accesss to the actual services - the bank accounts, the company time entry or expense reports pages, etc.

So Apple develops API’s for a one time $99 fee for these apps but other apps have to pay 30% just because they have transactions… makes sense.

We have the quotes from Apple saying why they charge 30%. Because of the resources to develop and maintain API’s. If it’s because of the API, then the judge should rightfully call bs on arbitrarily picking who foots the bill.

 

[mnsportsgeek]

They charge 30% while Apple charges 15% in certain conditions.

Which the judge also called out rightfully as a reaction to Apple’s legal issues.

 

[SuperMatt]

And many of them have loopholes to avoid paying a 30% cut if they want to.

For example?

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Actually any bank app is basically a bad example. They are, for the most part, web views wrapped in an app launcher. Same goes for the Workday app. That one is worse. It is obviously a web view if you interactive with it and the web client, but the app must use a separate URI since 1/2 the functionality of the mobile web page is blocked.

None of these apps are the products sold or supported by the companies. They are all simple interfaces to allow the customers accesss to the actual services - the bank accounts, the company time entry or expense reports pages, etc.

Yeah, the Wells-Fargo app was a red herring. It's a canned app. It basically connects to a secure server on the far end, and parrots what that server puts out. Simple... And how many times does Wells-Fargo update their app, and how many customers that have Wells-Fargo accounts, actually use their app. It's a captive audience.

 

[Ethosik]

Ooooo... Me too! Spectrum is THE provider, so decries the township board.

Oh, sure, I can get U-Verse, or a no brand DSL provider. I guess we Do have choices, but really, do we?

And the state muckitymucks have eliminated the ability for local governments to start their own ISP, or broadband services.

I got a quote to provide service here for 'synchronous' fiber based service mind you, (and there is an AT&T fiber bundle running under my driveway), and, per month, it was $2,500. Just for service, a drop. Installation was going to run well into the 5 figures. And I have AT&T fiber, MULTIPLE FIBERS, running under my driveway.

And yet somehow I'm also in a Spectrum 'dead zone'.

And this is America, in 2021, and yeah, people in Europe are getting full synchronous fiber TO THEIR HOMES for a hundred dollars a month! \

Hey, AT&T, maybe you wouldn't have network problems if you just gave everyone an entrance ramp onto your fast as heck fiber, and charged them $100 a month. I'm sure my traffic wouldn't even be noticed on a terabit fiber line. Not noticed at all. (Honest)

It is interesting that California has a lot of things that cost way more money, yet they have one of the lowest cost ISP available - Sonic. $40 a month for gigabit internet. Meanwhile I pay Spectrum $110 a month for gigabit that is very unreliable at times. I am very jealous.

 

[mnsportsgeek]

For example?

Netflix, Disney+, YouNeedABudget, YouTube, Zoom, Amazon, Uber, Doordash, Microsoft Office, Photoshop, ESPN. The list is endless.

Apple arbitrarily has decided gaming apps are one of the only ones that have to solely offer transactions in-app.

This whole thing started because Epic turned on Vbucks purchases through Epic directly. And that’s exactly how this is going to end. Apple will be forced to allow purchases outside of their store. Case closed. No side loading. Just the same treatment as Netflix and everyone else.

 

[ghostface147]

Apple won’t have to allow other app stores, but has to offer the ability to mention they can pay for things outside the app itself for cheaper and allow different payment options within apps, like what Epic wants. Just my guess.

 

[mnsportsgeek]

Apple won’t have to allow other app stores, but has to offer the ability to mention they can pay for things outside the app itself for cheaper and allow different payment options within apps, like what Epic wants. Just my guess.

That’s how I think it ends too. And the consumer is better off for it.

 

[SuperMatt]

Netflix, Disney+, YouNeedABudget, YouTube, Zoom, Amazon, Uber, Doordash, Microsoft Office, Photoshop, ESPN. The list is endless.

Apple arbitrarily has decided gaming apps are one of the only ones that have to solely offer transactions in-app.

You are fundamentally misunderstanding how this works. You realize people can buy Fortnite in-app currency from game cards and such too, right? It is the in-app purchase that gives Apple a cut. These examples are people subscribing outside the app and then using the subscription in the app.

Game makers do not WANT you to buy stuff outside the game. They make the money on the impulse buy when you can’t get past the level and they offer a $5 upgrade that will let you get past it.

 

[RedRage]

Apple won’t have to allow other app stores, but has to offer the ability to mention they can pay for things outside the app itself for cheaper and allow different payment options within apps, like what Epic wants. Just my guess.

Thats what I think will happen too.

 

[mnsportsgeek]

You are fundamentally misunderstanding how this works. You realize people can buy Fortnite in-app currency from game cards and such too, right? It is the in-app purchase that gives Apple a cut. These examples are people subscribing outside the app and then using the subscription in the app.

Game makers do not WANT you to buy stuff outside the game. They make the money on the impulse buy when you can’t get past the level and they offer a $5 upgrade that will let you get past it.

The difference being many of those apps do NOT have to offer an in app purchase at all.

And the rules are arbitrary. Why does a budgeting software (YNAB) not have to offer an in-app subscription, but Microsoft and Adobe do? Why does Netflix not have to offer one but YouTube does?

The rules are arbitrary and it is about time someone called Apple out on it.

 

[mnsportsgeek]

Because Uber rides are tangible things. They aren’t virtual rides in an Uber app.

Are digital games purchased from the PlayStation app and played on iOS devices via remote play tangible goods too?

 

[SuperMatt]

The difference being many of those apps do NOT have to offer an in app purchase at all.

And the rules are arbitrary. Why does a budgeting software (YNAB) not have to offer an in-app subscription, but Microsoft and Adobe do? Why does Netflix not have to offer one but YouTube does?

The rules are arbitrary and it is about time someone called Apple out on it.

The rules are not arbitrary. There are exceptions that are spelled out. It is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

Youtube doesn’t need to offer an in-app purchase. They could have an app with free features, but with the ability to sign in and use an external subscription.

And, YNAB DOES offer in-app purchases. So, that isn’t even an actual example.

 

[Zellio]

Are digital games purchased from the PlayStation app tangible goods too?

Lemme guess, there's about to be an excuse for why playstation should be able to sell and commision dlc from the fornite kids but apple can't because... reasons

 

[trifid]

The rules are not arbitrary. There are exceptions that are spelled out. It is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

Rules are completely arbitrary. Why do Adobe apps on iOS circumvent in-app purchase? It's a big company getting special treatment, while the smaller graphic design apps need to do in-app. You say exceptions that are spelled out? That's where the arbitrary fiesta begins.

It's disingenuous to act like there are no inconsistencies in the way Apple invents these rules and exceptions, it's all artificial to justify the 30% and push as much as possible, without angering the big dogs.

Of course in the case of Epic, that's one big dog where Apple couldn't easily make an exception for since it's games, and that's where we find ourselves now.

Note that Roblox is another great example of Apple bending and skewing the world like Inception to justify it as not being a game, Apple calls this "an experience" while the rest of us call this a "game". THAT's disingenuous.

 

[fontman]

It's just as easy to lose any of the other ones that's why I have a case it's a very bright colors so I don't lose it

 

[bushman4]

Tim Cook is a CEO not a lawyer and even with practice its a tough situation to but heads with a judge.
Epic charges developers 40% to use its platform. Google {Android} charges developers to use its platform.
Apple is providing Privacy, safety, as well as a platform built on confidence and experience
Destroying the App store would mean a major hit to the iPhone and its users

Epic gamers should think about what's going on and decide if Fortnite etc is good for them

 

[SuperMatt]

Rules are completely arbitrary. Why do Adobe apps on iOS circumvent in-app purchase? It's a big company getting special treatment, while the smaller graphic design apps need to do in-app. You say exceptions that are spelled out? That's where the arbitrary fiesta begins.

It's disingenuous to act like there are no inconsistencies in the way Apple invents these rules and exceptions, it's all artificial to justify the 30% and push as much as possible, without angering the big dogs.

Of course in the case of Epic, that's one big dog where Apple couldn't easily make an exception for since it's games, and that's where we find ourselves now.

Note that Roblox is another great example of Apple bending and skewing the world like Inception to justify it as not being a game, while everyone knows it is.

You’re not looking at the realities here. Each case is different, and if one cared to look into each instead of making sweeping generalizations like “the rules are completely arbitrary” they might realize that.

Also, there is a big difference between the rules being completely arbitrary and ”no inconsistencies.” The way you’ve setup the argument is if there is one inconsistency, you consider the entire thing to be completely arbitrary.

And the Roblox thing was THEM changing the definition of their software to try and fit into a different App Store category.

And small companies pay a lower percentage than big companies… so how is it that big companies are getting special treatment there?

 

[trifid]

And small companies pay a lower percentage than big companies… so how is it that big companies are getting special treatment there?

Photoshop iOS pays 0, Pixelmator iOS pays 15%. Please explain.

 

[Eso]

Yeah, the Wells-Fargo app was a red herring. It's a canned app. It basically connects to a secure server on the far end, and parrots what that server puts out. Simple... And how many times does Wells-Fargo update their app, and how many customers that have Wells-Fargo accounts, actually use their app. It's a captive audience.

Lmao and whose servers do you think the fortnite app connects to?

Development tool costs for Apple are a non-starter. Why do you think Apple loves to brag about the number of apps in their store? Apple supports 3rd party app development, or iPhone sales = $0, and you know it. Not to mention that they charge a yearly fee that is ostensibly for the development of the SDK and other developer tools.

 

[boss.king]

Tim Cook is a CEO not a lawyer

Tim Cook is an experience.