Judge in Apple v. Epic Case Sides With Apple on Fortnite and Epic on Unreal Engine [Updated]

[bobmans]

Unless App Store decompiles and inspects every app's assembly code line by line, "security" is ********. (Actual security is provided by the operating system with its restrictive APIs, not App Store)

What's the point of having the restrictive APIs like IAP if people would be allowed to use their own?
You're literally contradicting yourself. Epic bypassed the restrictive IAP api and implemented their own Epic Direct Payments and suddenly your kids are able to bypass parental controls and spend all your money using Epic Direct Payments because Epic said "I'm not going to use the restrictive APIs".

 

[Ethosik]

There's no way Apple is going to settle.

Epic isn't after a direct monetary payout, they want to:
1. Be able to use their own payment processing to avoid paying any fees to Apple
2. Be able to have their own Epic Game Store application downloadable through the app store so they can be the one charging developers a certain % fee for their games.
3. They want the Epic Game Store from #2 to have access to the same underlying aspects of iOS that the App Store has (automatic updates, push notifications, parental control support - their Epic Direct Payment option completely bypasses parental controls, possibly making your kid being able to spend 1000's of dollars of you even though you have payments disabled in parental controls)

Basically they want to be a full alternative to the App Store and want the developers their cut that's now going to Apple to go to them instead.

There's no way Apple isn't going to keep fighting to not allow 3rd party game stores that aren't regulated by Apple itself to be on iOS, that defeats the whole purpose of what iOS is built upon (privacy and security).

This isn't simply about a 30% cut being too high, this is about Epic wanting to be doing what Apple is doing, they want a piece of the pie of the huge game market on iOS.

Yes, what Epic basically wants is iOS to be re-written. I bet you its not just a simple few lines of code to allow all this integration with third party apps. iOS at its core was built around being locked down when they first developed the App Store.

Also, they want a full alternative to the App Store which is distributed from the App Store. That is ridiculous! And its because they know 90% of people will not side-load apps.

 

[Reindeer_Legal]

"Destroy iPhone as we know it" is right. I only like iPhones because they are locked down. I actually prefer some Android devices than the iPhone but the ecosystem of being locked down is the reason I went with iPhone. If that changes, I think iPhones would not be as popular. Why get a $1,000 phone when I can get a $500 Android? I get the iPhone now because its locked down, I am more safe. Sure there can be some apps that slip through, but its more safe than on Android.

Allow third party app stores is not gonna erase iOS's code. It's not gonna cause a kernel panic. iPhone is good because iOS (and iPhone hardware) is superior, not because App Store's monopoly supposedly filters malware.

 

[Reindeer_Legal]

Yes, what Epic basically wants is iOS to be re-written. I bet you its not just a simple few lines of code to allow all this integration with third party apps. iOS at its core was built around being locked down when they first developed the App Store.

Also, they want a full alternative to the App Store which is distributed from the App Store. That is ridiculous! And its because they know 90% of people will not side-load apps.

Even the recent clipboard access notification is provided by the operating system, not App Store. People who worry about privacy and security of third party app stores are mistaken. Apple will still make secure, privacy-oriented iOS.

 

[Ethosik]

Unless App Store decompiles and inspects every app's assembly code line by line, "security" is ********. (Actual security is provided by the operating system with its restrictive APIs, not App Store)

Nothing is perfect. Even for restrictive APIs. There will be bugs and security issues on ANYTHING. We humans are writing code, which by default introduces bugs.

However, having the app reviewed by Apple is an added barrier for security. Sure some stuff might slip through, again we are only human. But its still an added barrier.

 

[TiggrToo]

Allow third party app stores is not gonna erase iOS's code. It's not gonna cause a kernel panic. iPhone is good because iOS (and iPhone hardware) is superior, not because App Store's monopoly supposedly filters malware.

You know this just how?

Rhetorical question obviously. None of us know the truth, but given years of development it’s probably fair to say that the App Store is woven very tightly into the Operating System.

Did you not stop to consider that this security that the App Store provides is part and parcel of why iOS is liked by so many?

Again, another rhetorical question: Such a concept gets in the way of your posts in favor of Epic.

 

[Ethosik]

Allow third party app stores is not gonna erase iOS's code. It's not gonna cause a kernel panic. iPhone is good because iOS (and iPhone hardware) is superior, not because App Store's monopoly supposedly filters malware.

Where did I say its going to erase the iOS code? There obviously is code that makes the App Store the only store on iOS. That will need to be changed. There is also code that assumes the App Store is the only App Store that is responsible for updates, notifications, and more. That will obviously need to be changed.

 

[leman]

I am curious, what would it matter to you if there were third party payment systems? You could just choose to not use any app that doesn’t allow you pay with your iTunes account. If that market is large enough developers wouldn’t have to be forced to use it, they would support it or miss out on revenue. I ask because I have downloaded apps that have asked me to create accounts with the developer to use. That don’t allow me to sign in with say Google, Twitter, or Apple. I then deleted the app because I was sick of making new accounts for things on various random developer websites. If they added the ability to sign up with Apple I tried again. I get why developers want their own payment systems, and for some apps I already use it. Amazon is a prime example, see what I did there

Because you often don’t have alternatives, and users are normally ok with some added discomfort if the app itself is good enough. Frankly, I would have preferred that a unified login system is enforced by the rules.

The investigation will not determine whatever percentage is more appropriate. The investigation will determine that Apple abused it control of App Store to suppress competition and extract an excessive rent. Apple will be asked to work with third party developers to make the app distribution market more open, transparent, competitive and secure.

A standard market fee can be hardly called excessive. As to your bold faced text, couldn’t agree more. That would be great.

Unless App Store decompiles and inspects every app's assembly code line by line, "security" is ********. (Actual security is provided by the operating system with its restrictive APIs, not App Store)

That is kind of what notarization service does. It’s not perfect of course, but it can detect some typical threats.

 

[Reindeer_Legal]

App Store is woven very tightly into the Operating System.

Did you look at iOS's source code?
Given that developers can sideload apps on iPhone for testing, App Store allowing third party app stores is pretty much just a few lines of code.

 

[TiggrToo]

Did you look at iOS's source code?
Given that developers can sideload apps on iPhone for testing, App Store is pretty much just a few lines of code.

Yelling in bold doesn’t make your posts any more truthful. It does however allow people to point and giggle at how silly they are.

“A few lines of code” - really? Wow, if that’s what you believe then you’ve a serious lack of understanding of programming.

Did you ever stop to think for a second how possible it is that this sideloading process may be part and parcel of the App Store process?

 

[Reindeer_Legal]

That is kind of what notarization service does. It’s not perfect of course, but it can detect some typical threats.

Notarization seems like what OS developers should provide (and not App Store).

 

[Ethosik]

Did you look at iOS's source code?
Given that developers can sideload apps on iPhone for testing, App Store is pretty much just a few lines of code.

Those aren't checking for updates automatically. Getting notifications, downloaded from another store on the device itself. Side loading for testing requires Xcode.

 

[Reindeer_Legal]

Yelling in bold doesn’t make your posts any more truthful. It does however allow people to point and giggle at how silly they are.

“A few lines of code” - really? Wow, if that’s what you believe then you’ve a serious lack of understanding of programming.

Did you ever stop to think for a second how possible it is that this sideloading process may be part and parcel of the App Store process?

Those aren't checking for updates automatically. Getting notifications, downloaded from another store on the device itself. Side loading for testing requires Xcode.

It's just a certificate. Stop imagining code that doesn't exist.

iOS - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[leman]

Did you look at iOS's source code?
Given that developers can sideload apps on iPhone for testing, App Store is pretty much just a few lines of code.

Sorry, but this is a really dumb and ignorant post. Go try to write a distribution platform of that magnitude and then report back how many “lines of code” you needed.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

If anything this is the challenge of the App Store, if Fortnite leaves then that leaves a visible vacuum in the marketplace for others to come in and try to dominate and try to get a slice of the $276m Fortnite was pulling in.

I’m surprised Gameloft hasn’t came out with a mobile Battle Royale

 

[bobmans]

Did you look at iOS's source code?
Given that developers can sideload apps on iPhone for testing, App Store is pretty much just a few lines of code.

Who are you? Tim Sweeney?

 

[TiggrToo]

It's just a certificate. Stop imagining code that doesn't exist.

iOS - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

When all else fails, quote Wikipedia.

Do you develop? I do, and right now my simple iddy biddy RabbitMq facade is in the thousands of lines of code. And it's just a facade of the main client library.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Sorry, but this is a really dumb and ignorant post. Go try to write a distribution platform of that magnitude and then report back how many “lines of code” you needed.

This is the kind of person that thinks highways have always existed... the early settlers use them to migrate west, even!

 

[TiggrToo]

This is the kind of person that thinks highways have always existed... the early settlers use them to migrate west, even!

Yeah, it's kinda staggering how far people dig a hole when they're devoid of any facts.

Ignorance is the greatest debate shovel one can use. Within five minutes they've dug themselves a pit so deep they can never get out.

 

[Reindeer_Legal]

Did you look at iOS's source code?
Given that developers can sideload apps on iPhone for testing, App Store allowing third party app stores is pretty much just a few lines of code.

People are missing the context. What I meant was that allowing third party app stores is pretty easy, as simply as asking Apple to sign your public key (as simply as getting a TLS certificate).

 

[TiggrToo]

People are missing the context. What I meant was that allowing third party app stores is pretty easy, as simply as asking Apple to sign your public key (as simply as getting a TLS certificate).

Again, you KNOW this just how? Or are you making stuff up to support your argument?

 

[jsmith78]

The bottom line is, Apple makes up whatever rules it wants. There’s nothing remotely “fair” about Apple’s rules. What makes ordering a bag of rice on Amazon any different from buying some V-Bucks? Apple has as much to do with that bag of rice as it does with the V-Bucks, yet they feel entitled to a cut of one and not the other. They force one company to use their payment system and let the other company use its own. Why? There’s no good reason.

Apple’s App Store rules are arbitrary and inconsistent, favoring certain companies over others. If I’m not mistaken, one can also buy some digital items through Amazon’s app as well. If Apple is entitled to 30% of V-Buck sales, why not 30% of the digital video game codes sold through Amazon’s app? To be fair, I’ve never bought a digital video game code on Amazon but there are clearly options for “PC Download” and “PS4 Digital Code”. Those aren’t physical goods.

And why is Apple entitled to a cut of V-Bucks and not my Uber ride? Why doesn’t Uber have to use Apple’s payment system? Because. That’s why. Apple said so. They’re trying to be everyone’s mommy and daddy these days anyway, and their nonsensical explanations for why some companies are exempt from rules or have different rules feels exactly like the parent when questioned. Because I said so. It makes no sense and eventually they will get their you-know-what handed to them in court over these unfair practices.

There is a very good reason;
Realistically apple shouldn't get a cut of a physical CD from Amazon, and shouldn't get a cut of the same digital CD from Amazon.

However, whats really the difference between a digital CD and a game? If apple allows the digital CD to download without a cut, then it really has trouble taking the stance that it needs a cut of the game. If apple can't take a cut of the game, what can it take a cut of? If it can't take a cut of anything how does it run the App Store?

It's a hard situation; Apple probably wants purchases through amazon and such to go as smoothly as possible, but it has to draw some sort of consistent line based on some sort of rationale otherwise "every" software will be a "store": You download the "flappy bird" store, and within that "store" you buy the game direct. And apple hosted the data, handled the throughput to download it all for free.

Even worse, this could open the platform up to more nefarious behavior. What if the above "flappy Bird" in-app purchase via the producer's own "store" steals credit card information? That undermines one of the core selling points of IOS - that it's easy and safe to use for people who may not readily understand technology.

 

[Reindeer_Legal]

Again, you KNOW this just how? Or are you making stuff up to support your argument?

You have difficulty reading Wikipedia? You have difficulty understanding Public Key Infrastructure?

"Companies can apply to Apple for enterprise developer certificates. These can be used to sign apps such that iOS will install them directly (sometimes called "sideloading"), without the app needing to be distributed via the App Store." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS#App_Security

 

[Ethosik]

People are missing the context. What I meant was that allowing third party app stores is pretty easy, as simply as asking Apple to sign your public key (as simply as getting a TLS certificate).

Again, you know this how?

This is what Epic wants:

A competing Epic Games Store app available through the iOS App Store and through direct installation that has equal access to underlying operating system features for software installation and update as the iOS App Store itself has, including the ability to install and update software as seamlessly as the iOS App Store experience.

Everything is sandboxed in iOS. Does allowing an App Store to be installed that can install other Apps outside the sandbox only result in a few lines of code? Is sandbox in a sandbox even supported? That would mean you have to use the Epic Store FIRST before using the other apps if its a sandbox in a sandbox.

 

[TiggrToo]

You have difficulty reading Wikipedia? You have difficulty understanding Public Key Infrastructure?

Let me see, given that I just had to create myself several keys to secure my local RabbitMq service using opens l to create a local CA, an intermediate CA and the cert...

Why yes, I do understand.

Why? You really think that's all there is to it?

How Laughable!