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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,559
22,020
Singapore
Anyway Apple will show exactly what benefits consumers receive from App Store (None, I'd say, since I always `brew install` on macOS) and we will know whether that justifies their exclusive control.

The benefit is that iPhone users are more confident downloading and installing smartphone apps compared to PC apps. This translates to a larger smartphone app market which means more iOS apps sold than it otherwise would have.

Which in turn means more potential sales for the developer then if they had been selling on their own, or selling to PC users.

Macrumours posters are not an accurate indicator of your average iPhone user.
 

derekamoss

macrumors 65816
Jul 18, 2002
1,487
1,130
Houston, TX
You mean the main part? The video game is streaming from the data center. That's the point I'm making.

I've tried OnLive (they had a nerfed "social" version on iOS briefly, but also had their micro console), SteamLink, PS4 Remote Play, Playstation Now on PC, Geforce Now on PC and Pixel 3, and Stadia on Pixel 3.

OnLive, Playstation Now, and Stadia had undesirable latency for any game that involves aiming and shooting because those rely on data centers. Geforce Now seems to have the best latency among the cloud-based gaming services, but even then, I'll never play multiplayer shooters. I tried playing Overwatch when it was available (I believe it's now removed due to license issues) and I found myself unable to play any hitscan heroes.

Steamlink and PS4 Remote Play are locally rendered on a device that's connected on the same wifi. The propagation delay is minimal. Games still have lag, but tolerable in some aiming and shooting games.

I don't see how xCloud can break the laws of physics to provide a better experience. The only way this can happen is if you play on a phone that has <5ms touch screen delay (iPhones have a 55ms touch delay) and use 5G or Wifi 6.



I noticed lag in racing games as well.
I never said there wouldn't be any lag from the datacenter streaming I was pointing out that Project xCloud allows you to render on a device thats on the same network directly from the xBox and even now you can stream to any laptop or tablet running windows 10 directly from the xbox. THAT had very little lag. Steamlink and PS4 remote play do ONE thing while Xbox and project xcloud do THREE things and considering you get it for free on top of xbox live and xbox gamepass it's a MUCH better app than sony's or steamlink when it comes to value
 

cbaca51

macrumors 6502
Sep 11, 2016
345
362
Cali
I’m sure this ruling is what Apple wanted. Block fortnite until they change their in-app purchases but keep the unreal engine going for indie developers.
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,471
California
I’m sure this ruling is what Apple wanted. Block fortnite until they change their in-app purchases but keep the unreal engine going for indie developers.
If apple wanted that, they had it in their power to do that without making the court overrule them on unreal.

Apple’s concern re: the unreal dev account is that they don’t want fortnite developers to switch to using that account, etc.
 

pasamio

macrumors 6502
Jan 22, 2020
355
297
I think everyone can see the benefit Apple has brought to computing over the years. If Apple was a more open system it could totally kick ass from a software engineering perspective and this would probably open its market share even more. The complaints about Apple's closed walls are not as ill-intentioned as you might think.

You mean like the Mac where they have 10% or less of the desktop/laptop market share? One of the things that got back to the Mac in the early 2000's was that it had the Unix tooling available to use with a GUI that didn't require me to hand edit config files, deal with recompiling device drivers suddenly if my kernel updated and at the time shipped with support for almost any programming language I could care about out of the box. It also had power management that didn't require a Linux kernel expert to configure so that suspend/resume/hibernate that worked every time (even Windows laptops at the time could be flaky there too).

Let's posit something crazy: Apple built the iPhone to compete in a market they'd never competed in before, the smart phone market. They then shipped their App Store with at the time a ground breaking mere 30% profit sharing arrangement. The trade off of being a member of this ecosystem has always been that you are at the whim of Apple's capriciousness with a rather restrictive set of rules of what they will let on their platforms and how payments should work. Google followed up around the same time with their operating system and almost identical App Store model though for the most part less restrictive. Android had an explosive growth getting to 50% market share within a couple of years whilst iOS has slowly crept up over the years with the significantly more locked down model to get to their roughly 50% marketshare in the US and around 15% to 20% worldwide.

All the while the Mac has more or less maintained it's position, still struggling to crack 10% marketshare. I wish you were right because then the Mac should have dominated from the mid 2000's onwards, or even Linux which has an even more open system, but it just hasn't happened.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G3
Jul 22, 2002
9,917
7,832
Plenty of companies already do that, they're called Android phones! Non-iOS hardware, all of the bits you love from the iPhone and iOS removed AND you can even side load on them! I don't know why they're not the majority of the market...no, wait...they are? But Apple monopoly?!? ABORT!
But, see, they’re not. Primarily, Android phones don’t have and will never have access to the industry beating Aseries processors. Remove the App Store, iCloud integration, secure purchases, iOS... like NO OS at all on the thing and you have what a bunch of people here seem to be asking for, and Apple made device with Android rules.

If you want an OS, security, an App Store, music, videos, you go get them yourself. No Apple, No Google no anyone to dictate how you use your device.
If Apple was a more open system it could totally kick ass from a software engineering perspective and this would probably open its market share even more. The complaints about Apple's closed walls are not as ill-intentioned as you might think.
If Apple was a more open system, it really wouldn’t be Apple. A lot of how they got where they are is they were able to convince media owners that they could protect content because of their closed system. Remove that advantage and maybe Android would have more marketshare in the US.
 

farewelwilliams

Suspended
Jun 18, 2014
4,966
18,041
I never said there wouldn't be any lag from the datacenter streaming I was pointing out that Project xCloud allows you to render on a device thats on the same network directly from the xBox and even now you can stream to any laptop or tablet running windows 10 directly from the xbox. THAT had very little lag. Steamlink and PS4 remote play do ONE thing while Xbox and project xcloud do THREE things and considering you get it for free on top of xbox live and xbox gamepass it's a MUCH better app than sony's or steamlink when it comes to value

Okay? Remote play + steam link has allowed that for a while and even locally rendered, it's still not that great of an experience. Xcloud releasing a "local" only version on iOS isn't going to change my mind about that.
 
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MacBH928

macrumors G3
May 17, 2008
8,312
3,716
I like how this started to vilify Apple but in the end they turned out to be the good guys.
 

Waragainstsleep

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2003
598
211
UK
However, if this is the case why is there two accounts, one for Epic International and one for Epic Games? I thought the Epic International account was for enterprise and was being misused for Unreal distribution or something.

It feels as though maybe Epic have two app-store accounts one they use for iOS games like Fortnite and one they use for Unreal. This would explain Apple’s assertion that Epic could simply swap from one account to another to switch any “blame”, and why Apple felt it right to terminate the duplicate (Unreal) account.

This scenario seems the real one, but why Epic made such a fuss over it I don’t know, because if Apple had terminated the Epic International account, Epic could have just used the Epic Games account instead which was not under threat.

The only scenario in which it would have made a big difference is if one of the accounts had been an enterprise one, like I originally suggested.

So you answered your own question here, Epic Games publishes Fortnite to the App Store and breached its developer contract when they introduced their own payment system so Apple is within their rights to terminate it.
Epic International develops the Unreal Engine which is sold or licensed to other developers to build games on International doesn't publish anything because Unreal Engine doesn't do much on its own so International has not breached its own developer contract (yet). Apple may or may not have cited the possibility that Epic Games could simply switch to publishing Fortnite via the Epic International account as a reason to terminate that one too but this is likely not true for the following reasons:

Apple just wanted leverage against Epic in this fight and maybe to just point out to everyone (including Epic) how much Apple's platform has benefitted them until now.
Since Epic International only really requires the tools and resources from an Apple Developer account, it seems trivial that they could simply open another one and access those resources from there so no harm would really be done. They could just set their devs as freelancers and buy them one each even.
Likewise, Epic Games could rebrand or create a subsidiary or affiliate etc and open a new account of their own with which to re-publish. Whichever account they use, its not going to last very long if they are still breaching the terms. Its not like they are going to change the name of Fortnite or be able to disguise it as a different game.

Anyway, Apple did put Epic International and the Unreal Engine under threat deliberately to put Epic in their place somewhat.

Yeah the McDonald’s thing is interesting. I feel like they said digital only because in app purchases are really just a deferred payment for many apps. Like instead of paying 50 dollars that you would balk at for a photoshop app you kind of pay it off later through in app purchases.

It comes down to practical economics. If Apple charged their 30% on physical goods, for a start that would be a pretty extortionate commission. Compare that rate to payment processors or even auction houses and its not a very competitive rate so its likely to land them in trouble sooner or later.
More important than that is that when Apple charges 30%, the seller has two choices: Eat the cost or add it on. If you add 30% to your McDonalds or Dominos order, that's going to heavily impact how many people use that app. You can just go on the website instead and if Apple complains you are breaking the rules by circumventing their commission despite your website processing orders for years previously, you're just going to axe the app more than likely. McDonald's cannot afford to add 30% or eat it themselves. What about eBay? Imagine the outrage there if Apple added 30% to every auction price! Not going to work.

There is a justification for this beyond pricing. McDonalds developed the recipe for that burger, meat, seasoning, preservatives sauce, the lot. They spent a fortune developing it, protecting it, getting it consistent across thousands of restaurants all over the world, advertising it, setting up supply chains, then some oil has to cook it and wrap it before they hand it to you. And it cost $3 after all that. The profit margin on it is probably less than 50c. Now Apple wants a buck.
That stupid hat you bought on Fortnite took one dude a couple of hours to whip up one morning. He might get $200 an hour but Epic can sell an infinite number of those hats having paid a one-off cost of under $500. And every one they sell is $3 again. Or if its really flashy maybe its $10. Or if its a franchise tie-in, its $20 and $10 of it goes to Disney or whoever. If Apple gets $1-6, Epic still makes good money for basically nothing. They can afford to eat the cost. This is assuming they actually sell you the hat for a few bucks. They probably charge you a couple of bucks for a chance to win it. With an average cost of winning anywhere up to $100 or more.


The judge ruled that it wasn't in the public interest that Unreal Engine be hindered and the order held that Apple shouldn't be able to interfere with that relationship and that it felt like overreach. As you rightly point out that doesn't prevent Apple trying to cancel their contract later on and obviously Epic could then litigate against them terminating the contract. Unless things get significantly worse, I don't see Apple invoking the nuclear option on Epic however I think it was a rude awakening of what that nuke looked like. More importantly the judge didn't rule that it was illegal for Apple to do such a thing, they said it was not in the public interest for the purposes of the TRO to let Apple alter the status quo at this time.

My understanding was that it had nothing to do with public interest. That gets decided later. The judge ruled that terminating Epic International would cause irreparable damage to the Unreal Engine. Specifically its reputation and customer base, if it were kicked from iOS for any length of time. This would be unfair in the event that Epic went on to win the overall suit, so the judge blocked Apple from doing it. Apple was overreaching to make a point and gain leverage over Epic as the judge says but if Epic use that account to publish Fortnite again and don't remove the payment runaround, Apple will be well within their rights to kick that one too regardless of any damage it does to Unreal Engine.

That said Epic have gone to war now with Sony, Microsoft and Steam in recent memory. They've now gone to war with Apple and Google, what's to say they don't make some other move that limits their other platforms?

Yeah, talk about biting the hands that feed. I can't see Epic coming out of this looking all that good. They just look greedy, petulant and ungrateful. Citing a monopoly is daft when you're suing two of them at once. If theres two, they aren't monopolies are they? If they believe there is price fixing going on surely they could have filed a complaint with the relevant authorities? But then Google would point out there is a way around their commission and Apple can point out they can stick to Android and go around Goode's commission and they have no leg to stand on again. They just seem to want a free lunch.

If apple wanted that, they had it in their power to do that without making the court overrule them on unreal.

Apple’s concern re: the unreal dev account is that they don’t want fortnite developers to switch to using that account, etc.

Its just about gaining leverage. And maybe to intimidate a little. If Fortnite goes offline and then Unreal loses all its customers, Epic's shares will tank. They will be forced to sell Unreal at below its value because they have no choice but to sell it and then they will just be the owners of a game no-one can play any more unless they are prepared to piss about side loading their hand me down Android phones. It would die fast and so would Epic.

If Apple was a more open system, it really wouldn’t be Apple. A lot of how they got where they are is they were able to convince media owners that they could protect content because of their closed system. Remove that advantage and maybe Android would have more marketshare in the US.

I suspect its more to do with wealth and patriotism. Americans have more disposable income so they can buy nicer phones. Also Apple is American and most users have no idea that Android is google and hence also American. They see Samsung, Huawei, LG etc and assume its not American so they buy Apple.
 

pasamio

macrumors 6502
Jan 22, 2020
355
297
My understanding was that it had nothing to do with public interest. That gets decided later. The judge ruled that terminating Epic International would cause irreparable damage to the Unreal Engine. Specifically its reputation and customer base, if it were kicked from iOS for any length of time. This would be unfair in the event that Epic went on to win the overall suit, so the judge blocked Apple from doing it. Apple was overreaching to make a point and gain leverage over Epic as the judge says but if Epic use that account to publish Fortnite again and don't remove the payment runaround, Apple will be well within their rights to kick that one too regardless of any damage it does to Unreal Engine.

If you read the order it explicitly calls out a section on the public interest, check out the bottom of page 6 where it has the following:

Public Interest: “[T]he public interest inquiry primarily addresses the impact on non-parties.”

That section called out, for the Unreal Engine, that "the record shows potential significant damage to both the Unreal Engine platform itself, and to the gaming industry generally, including on both third-party developers and gamers" and went on to state that "their dispute should not create havoc to bystanders."

There is also the "irreparable harm" section in which the judge agreed that Epic made "preliminary showing of irreparable harm" and went on to state "it could be too late to save all the projects by third-party developers relying on the engine that were shelved while support was unavailable" and "the collateral damage to the third-party developers themselves."

Both of those sections explicitly call out the impact on third party developers and made clear that protecting Unreal Engine was in the public interest at least for the duration of the TRO. I'm not sure how one could not come to the conclusion it had nothing to do with the public interest after reading the order.
 

creamz

macrumors member
Feb 2, 2015
85
37
I find it amusing how people here supported Epic on their actions. Epic is not complaining about the 30%. They want everything for themselves. Maybe we have taken something that we have been using all along for granted. Gosh do you know just how easy it is on the App store with their one click install? Trust me, a lot of work has been put into it. Google Play copied Apple store so it is a no brainer. Also good luck in backing up your apps whenever you need to restore your phone if it isn't for the sole App store.

The judge in my opinion have taken care of everyone's concern which is a good thing. By the time the case ended there is no doubt Fortnite would have already lose their popularity resulting in Epic having a net loss for their greed. A blessing imo.
 
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Carnegie

macrumors 6502a
May 24, 2012
837
1,984
If you read the order it explicitly calls out a section on the public interest, check out the bottom of page 6 where it has the following:



That section called out, for the Unreal Engine, that "the record shows potential significant damage to both the Unreal Engine platform itself, and to the gaming industry generally, including on both third-party developers and gamers" and went on to state that "their dispute should not create havoc to bystanders."

There is also the "irreparable harm" section in which the judge agreed that Epic made "preliminary showing of irreparable harm" and went on to state "it could be too late to save all the projects by third-party developers relying on the engine that were shelved while support was unavailable" and "the collateral damage to the third-party developers themselves."

Both of those sections explicitly call out the impact on third party developers and made clear that protecting Unreal Engine was in the public interest at least for the duration of the TRO. I'm not sure how one could not come to the conclusion it had nothing to do with the public interest after reading the order.

Yes, public interest is necessarily a consideration when it comes to the issuance of TROs. Irreparable harm, balance of equities, and likelihood of success on the merits are the other factors to be considered.
 
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the8thark

macrumors 601
Apr 18, 2011
4,628
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Not only epic but Apple as well. „THE APP STORE WAS NEARLY 40 PERCENT OF APPLE’S TOTAL SERVICE REVENUE IN 2019“
https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/17/...-app-store-services-business-model-epic-games
That depends on the overall margins (when the cost to run the app store is factored in) so the overal profit is worked out. It could very well be quite different to the revenue number.
With phones Apple is the market leader based on profits from phones by a long way though it's not even close to first place when you talk revenue from phones.
 

the8thark

macrumors 601
Apr 18, 2011
4,628
1,735
If Epic made hardware this would make sense.

But Epic don't, so it sounds like the ramblings of someone who doesn't understand the issues.

Epic doesn't want app stores within app stores particularly, it wants customers to be able to pick app stores.

Please re-read what you said here so it doen't sound like the ramblings of someone who doesn't understand the issues.

Epic want everyone to have their own app store on the iOS app store. They are claiming it's so everyone has the freedom to have their own app store on the iOS app store. Epic also won't want to pay the 30% for their app store to be on the iOS app store.


That is app stores within app stores. Epic is not talking about somerthing like going to the Epic store to load up your totally separate app store that is on the iPhone but has nothing to do with the iOS app store.
 

hot-gril

macrumors 68000
Jul 11, 2020
1,924
1,966
Northern California, USA
Epic also argued about the social aspects of the game, suggesting it was more than a mere game and a vital way to communicate during the pandemic.
fetchimage
 

threesixty360

macrumors 6502a
May 2, 2007
699
1,363
There is a justification for this beyond pricing. McDonalds developed the recipe for that burger, meat, seasoning, preservatives sauce, the lot. They spent a fortune developing it, protecting it, getting it consistent across thousands of restaurants all over the world, advertising it, setting up supply chains, then some oil has to cook it and wrap it before they hand it to you. And it cost $3 after all that. The profit margin on it is probably less than 50c. Now Apple wants a buck.
That stupid hat you bought on Fortnite took one dude a couple of hours to whip up one morning. He might get $200 an hour but Epic can sell an infinite number of those hats having paid a one-off cost of under $500. And every one they sell is $3 again. Or if its really flashy maybe its $10. Or if its a franchise tie-in, its $20 and $10 of it goes to Disney or whoever. If Apple gets $1-6, Epic still makes good money for basically nothing. They can afford to eat the cost. This is assuming they actually sell you the hat for a few bucks. They probably charge you a couple of bucks for a chance to win it. With an average cost of winning anywhere up to $100 or more.

I'm not sure Apple could use the profit margin of the product as a justification of who they charge 30% to. For a start all margins for a product are assumed unless you know the companies accounts. Even companies in the same industries can have wildly different margins depending on debt they hold, investments, r&d etc..

I think Apple's justification is simply the concept of a simple store that sells products and has a 25-30% margin on what they sell in the store. If they hand the goods to you from their "warehouse" i.e. their servers, and communicate that transaction on their premises (the app store), then they want the same margin that all shops take.

The concept of whether digital should be priced as physical is the intellectual debate that is the backbone of piracy issues going back decades. Previously people thought it was ok to make a copy of a digital product because it's technically not costing the producer anything to make the additional copy so piracy was fine. But over the years in media we have defined that the intellectual property is the cost and every unlicensed clone of that file has a value.

So even though CD's were physical product, made and physically distributed to your door, the digital counterpart cost the exact same $12 dollars or whatever.

So bringing that argument back home, Apple will say if you can value a digital copy from a server the same way we value physical product from a store, why cant we have the same 30% cut stores have to cover our "intellectual" rather than physical investment in this process?

Saying the cut Apple charge should be related to how much it costs to process the sale is basically undermining 40yrs of ip and copyright law / pricing that digital media companies had fought for and won a while ago.
 

Waragainstsleep

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2003
598
211
UK
Saying the cut Apple charge should be related to how much it costs to process the sale is basically undermining 40yrs of ip and copyright law / pricing that digital media companies had fought for and won a while ago.


Except these are digital only items. They have a shelf life that is limited by the lifespan of the game/developer/OS/platform/etc. Right now, anyone who spent thousands on crap for Fortnite has lost that stuff. (I wonder how long until we see a class action against Epic for that)
When you buy music or a movie you can keep and use it as long as you are able to keep and use it. These items are not like that.
In my mind, these things should be way, way cheaper than they are. Once upon a time $30 got you several dozen hours of enjoyment playing a game (minimum, if I had the time I would still be playing SWOS from 1997 now), then your monthly subscription games got you a couple of months for your $30. Now in this era of alleged microtransactions $30 gets you low tier items on games like Fortnite or CoDM. These are not essential to playing the game but how much 'extra' fun are you really getting at this point? Then there are pay-to-win games where you pay to speed things up and your $30 saves you a few hours of waiting. Or delays the time you'll need to wait for a few hours. The value for consumers has ultimately tanked as they are getting less for their money while they get manipulated by developer psi-ops into gambling or wasting cash on intangible items they will get minimal use out of. Lets not even start on the way these practices can foster a toxic user base of impulsive, tantrum-throwing trust-fund brats trying to win by outspending each other.
 

Waragainstsleep

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2003
598
211
UK
I'll grant you its weird. The argument for treating digital assets different is more an ethical one than a legal one.
 

Anox

macrumors member
Aug 6, 2020
91
21
I don't see Unreal Engine violating any App Store terms, since it is not sold on the App Store. It's not the kind of product you would buy on an App Store.
The mere fact that a feature that is not allowed or reviewed by the gatekeepers was enabled after an update indicates that it is possible for malicious activity in the same concept

if unreal Engine enables developers to act like that and enable features after the fact it can definitely allow malicious unreviewed features as well
 

Anox

macrumors member
Aug 6, 2020
91
21
Not only are physical goods not required to use Apple's payment process, app developers are not _allowed_ to use Apple's payment process. So if you are a small outfit creating knitted jumpers, you might thing that paying 30% for the ability to sell world wide with payments, taxes, and so on all handled for you is worth it, but you are not allowed to.
Interesting
Didn’t know that
I must admit the 30% at first seems too much but learning just how much Apple gives out it’s not that bad
 

threesixty360

macrumors 6502a
May 2, 2007
699
1,363
Except these are digital only items. They have a shelf life that is limited by the lifespan of the game/developer/OS/platform/etc. Right now, anyone who spent thousands on crap for Fortnite has lost that stuff. (I wonder how long until we see a class action against Epic for that)

So is everything else! Itunes music and video is DRM'd, same with Google and Amazon downloads. If (and when) they cannot provide a license via their servers you can't play the file and your purchase is useless. And they charge $12 dollars an album or film for these digital assets.

Even HDMI socket hardware has DRM on it that can restrict digital signals to your TV depending on what is being played (regardless of whether its a Blu Ray or digital download).

As I said, that battle has been won. You pay full whack or pretty much price equivalent of physical goods for digital content in this world. Even though as you point out, it will not work forever. The media companies won that battle a while ago.

Also, it would be fair to point out that it has always been the content creators that have pushed for DRM and price equivalency with physical product. That's the only way apple got Itunes done in the first place. So when I listen to companies like Epic rattle on about looking out for customers etc.. you have to just laugh.
 
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Unregistered 4U

macrumors G3
Jul 22, 2002
9,917
7,832
I suspect its more to do with wealth and patriotism. Americans have more disposable income so they can buy nicer phones. Also Apple is American and most users have no idea that Android is google and hence also American. They see Samsung, Huawei, LG etc and assume its not American so they buy Apple.
I’ll concede it’s likely a little of wealth and media. If your assertion is correct about the larger amount of disposable income in the US, that would align with Apple’s focus on the US market first for their media deals. The more they signed, the more valuable the Services became in the US. In the rest of the world, it would be primarily a price and features comparison, then.

I wouldn’t think it’s patriotism, bu that’s just me.
 
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Anox

macrumors member
Aug 6, 2020
91
21
Every Apple fanboy stands blindingly in line, hating on Epic. Yet you guys fail to realise that if Epic succeeds, consumers and developers will be the ones who'll benefit from it. A lower apple purchase tax means more great apps from more talented people and less IAP.
I am a gamer,I like Apple products,I like to code and some of my best friends are developers,
Epic is doing far more than this to warrant the anger and hate they get,
They talk about Apple store being bad because of exclusivity while they are trying to do the same but fail, they have decided that 30% is too much yet their business is so small compared to Apple and epicpractices make many like myself prefer steam way more

as for consumers believe me the chances that epic will not raise their price when given the chance are low at best...

there are many many developers that find what Apple gives a great deal because of all they give to you... yet all you heat about is the big guys complaining
 

Waragainstsleep

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2003
598
211
UK
So is everything else! Itunes music and video is DRM'd, same with Google and Amazon downloads.

I thought Apple removed the DRM from music.


I’ll concede it’s likely a little of wealth and media. If your assertion is correct about the larger amount of disposable income in the US, that would align with Apple’s focus on the US market first for their media deals. The more they signed, the more valuable the Services became in the US. In the rest of the world, it would be primarily a price and features comparison, then.

I wouldn’t think it’s patriotism, but that’s just me.

They do it with cars. Its not all of them, just a disturbing subset.
 
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