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The following excerpt from Dyson's statement higlights pretty clearly the current issue with patents:

The patent system offers us some protection but not enough: with an army of lawyers, hidden prior art is occasionally found and ways to design around existing patents identified.

Basically they are disappointed that someone might figure out that their invention might not be an invention at all and that different designs not needing that particular patent can be found: they don't want a patent protecting their specific invention (which might not be their invention in the first place), they want a patent protecting them from any competition altogether.
 

yeah...that info was in the article that i got the pic from (see my previous post that you quoted). from what i can tell, the "prior art" related to the steering mechanism of the vacuum; but, draw your own conclusions...i didn't research it.

so, back to the similarity of appearance...is it questionable? or, are we now comparing other aspects of samsung/dyson vacuums?
 
the kev, why would a Samsung Galaxy Tab's USB cable "have to match" apple's connector?

The question suggests you completely missed my point. Both of those connectors are standardized. The port portions are based on standards, so a part must match by definition. All phone cables have used thin cords as long as I can remember. Those parts must match by definition. Now look at the mold cast parts. Those components don't have to match, because they don't have to fit a specific plug type. Those parts are actually different. The guard portions that extend around the cord to prevent fraying due to stress are different in length and design. The samsung mold cast plastic has an extra extrusion. Do you really not see how bad of a comparison you chose there? Edit: many others have done the same thing. There are places where they clearly seem to copy the styling of others. This one isn't the case. This is just pure nonsense the verge used to obtain page clicks.
 
Apple does not have a patent on autocorrecting, neither do they have one on universal search. They have patents on implementations of them. So if Samsung wants to implement the way Apple did it, they have to pay. If not, they should do their own auto correct and universal search.

And how many ways are there to do autocorrect and universal search? From reading the patent, it seems Apple has patented a pretty generic search algorithm that lists results in order of relevance, rather than any specific implementation. No one else will be able to make one without infringing at least in part on what they've patented. And that's a problem.

Samsung's search isn't much different from the search method MS implemented on the start menu with Vista, which isn't much different than what Copernic had back in the 90's.

And you are still incorrect in thinking that something non unique shouldn't be patented. Uniqueness has nothing to do with the patent system. People patent all sorts of obvious stuff, and not just in USA.

You're right, it doesn't have to be completely unique. A decent tweak to something that already exists can be patented. But it does have to be non-obvious.

edit: Here's an interesting article for you.

And a relevant quote...

Patents are vitally important to protecting intellectual property. Plenty of creativity occurs within the technology industry, and without patents, executives say they could never justify spending fortunes on new products. And academics say that some aspects of the patent system, like protections for pharmaceuticals, often function smoothly.

However, many people argue that the nation’s patent rules, intended for a mechanical world, are inadequate in today’s digital marketplace. Unlike patents for new drug formulas, patents on software often effectively grant ownership of concepts, rather than tangible creations. Today, the patent office routinely approves patents that describe vague algorithms or business methods, like a software system for calculating online prices, without patent examiners demanding specifics about how those calculations occur or how the software operates.
 
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yeah...that info was in the article that i got the pic from (see my previous post that you quoted). from what i can tell, the "prior art" related to the steering mechanism of the vacuum; but, draw your own conclusions...i didn't research it.

so, back to the similarity of appearance...is it questionable? or, are we now comparing other aspects of samsung/dyson vacuums?

Dyson did not sue about the appearance of the vacuum cleaner: Dyson sued Samsung alleging that they were infringing their patented steering mechanism. That's why the prior art is about the steering mechanism, to prove that it was not Dyson's original invention.
 
The question suggests you completely missed my point. Both of those connectors are standardized. The port portions are based on standards, so a part must match by definition. All phone cables have used thin cords as long as I can remember. Those parts must match by definition. Now look at the mold cast parts. Those components don't have to match, because they don't have to fit a specific plug type. Those parts are actually different. The guard portions that extend around the cord to prevent fraying due to stress are different in length and design. The samsung mold cast plastic has an extra extrusion. Do you really not see how bad of a comparison you chose there? Edit: many others have done the same thing. There are places where they clearly seem to copy the styling of others. This one isn't the case. This is just pure nonsense the verge used to obtain page clicks.

theverge didn't post the pic or the comparison...a commenter did...i put his/her name in my previous post.

regarding similarities in appearance, i don't think it was necessary for samsung to make its usb cord appear similar (shockingly similar) to apple's...that's just my guess, as i'm not the engineer (or the like) who samsung employed/contracted with to design its usb cord.

i don't think that i missed the point of your post, and i "really [don't] see how bad of a comparison . . . chose there." the cords appear similar, and i don't think that they need to. by comparison, palm's usb cords for its pre(s), pixi(s) and touchpad(s) didn't look similar to apple's.
 
Dyson did not sue about the appearance of the vacuum cleaner: Dyson sued Samsung alleging that they were infringing their patented steering mechanism. That's why the prior art is about the steering mechanism, to prove that it was not Dyson's original invention.

yeah...i didn't post or suggest otherwise. my post (that you quoted) was in response to Dave.UK's post (see this thread). prior to that, i posted an image that compares the appearance of a samsung vacuum to a dyson vacuum. prior to that post, i posted some other images of samsung products that i thought appeared similar to apple products.

so, i'm not sure why you quoted me then posted about the topic of the dyson/samsung lawsuit.
 
You're trivializing the difficulty of pattern matching in raw user written text. Apple's 647 patent is an API to match structured data, specifically dates, addresses, and contact info. If you've ever tried to do this you'd know just how hard it is to do accurately. By using an API you can shield developers from the intricacies and enable this functionality across the entire OS. That is what they were found to infringe upon.

Web links and phone numbers are easy, they follow a predictable pattern and use a similar format all around the world. Matching an address to tie to maps is a real challenge, with all the different formats and ways they can be written you can't use the normal techniques such as regular expressions to find matches.

I implore anyone who thinks this task is trivial to try it. You'll see exactly what I'm talking about and why this is a big deal.

Almost all programming is difficult. But just because something is difficult doesn't mean it should be granted a patent.

Doing something well doesn't (or shouldn't) give you ownership of the concept.
 
theverge didn't post the pic or the comparison...a commenter did...i put his/her name in my previous post.

regarding similarities in appearance, i don't think it was necessary for samsung to make its usb cord appear similar (shockingly similar) to apple's...that's just my guess, as i'm not the engineer (or the like) who samsung employed/contracted with to design its usb cord.

i don't think that i missed the point of your post, and i "really [don't] see how bad of a comparison . . . chose there." the cords appear similar, and i don't think that they need to. by comparison, palm's usb cords for its pre(s), pixi(s) and touchpad(s) didn't look similar to apple's.


The verge was one of the first to use that comparison, because their writers are biased:p. Much of this is incidental. I can see you're really commited on this one, but it is truly trivial. Looking at several usb cords around here, the ones that need to be flexible have the thin cord.

I have one of these sitting right next to me.

IMG_211280.jpg


The mold cast portion is similar. The other end uses a more generic usb connector much like you see on generic cables. It's fine for the design of this, but not as friendly on notebooks where there is often little clearance between the machine and a given surface. The majority of these aren't used on notebooks, and its use on mine is secondary anyway. Your complaint really boils down to the use of rounded edges there, as they are the only uncommon feature that is similar. Even then they aren't identical.


Almost all programming is difficult. But just because something is difficult doesn't mean it should be granted a patent.

Doing something well doesn't (or shouldn't) give you ownership of the concept.

That is why we have python sir.
 
So what happens when Apple copies other vendors like Android notifications or WebOS task control? Or does it only work one way?

So maybe in this case Apple is using the patents legally and paying to do so. Unlike Samsung who thinks they are above the law and steal. A lot like Google and your personal information. 2 companies I try to not support and stay clear of.
 
So maybe in this case Apple is using the patents legally and paying to do so. Unlike Samsung who thinks they are above the law and steal. A lot like Google and your personal information. 2 companies I try to not support and stay clear of.

When did Apple pay Google for the drop down notifications and control center?
 
You're trivializing the difficulty of pattern matching in raw user written text. Apple's 647 patent is an API to match structured data, specifically dates, addresses, and contact info. If you've ever tried to do this you'd know just how hard it is to do accurately. By using an API you can shield developers from the intricacies and enable this functionality across the entire OS. That is what they were found to infringe upon.

Web links and phone numbers are easy, they follow a predictable pattern and use a similar format all around the world. Matching an address to tie to maps is a real challenge, with all the different formats and ways they can be written you can't use the normal techniques such as regular expressions to find matches.

I implore anyone who thinks this task is trivial to try it. You'll see exactly what I'm talking about and why this is a big deal.

The patent is not about the expression matched
 
So maybe in this case Apple is using the patents legally and paying to do so. Unlike Samsung who thinks they are above the law and steal. A lot like Google and your personal information. 2 companies I try to not support and stay clear of.

Theres no difference between Apple and Google privacy policies. They both use your data.
 
The verge was one of the first to use that comparison, because their writers are biased:p. Much of this is incidental. I can see you're really commited on this one, but it is truly trivial. Looking at several usb cords around here, the ones that need to be flexible have the thin cord.

I have one of these sitting right next to me. . . . The mold cast portion is similar. The other end uses a more generic usb connector much like you see on generic cables. It's fine for the design of this, but not as friendly on notebooks where there is often little clearance between the machine and a given surface. The majority of these aren't used on notebooks, and its use on mine is secondary anyway. Your complaint really boils down to the use of rounded edges there, as they are the only uncommon feature that is similar. Even then they aren't identical.

i wouldn't characterize my reply to your post as being "really commited [sic] on this one"; instead, i was just replying to your post. if you don't think the usb cords look alike, it's cool...no biggie. but, you still haven't replied to my question; and you don't have to. it's just that, when i quote others' posts, i usually reply to what was originally posted, instead of spinning off onto another subject |or| i reply to what was originally posted, then i spin off onto another subject.

regarding the remainder of your post, i'm not sure of what your aim is. i haven't complained about anything. clearly, my mistake was not adding words to my original post indicating "look how similar these two usb cords appear...one is made by apple, and the other is made by samsung."

anyway, i'll be around for the rest of the day...i'm all stocked up on capri sun and my samsung ultrabook from which i'm posting replies is humming along nicely. as an aside, my ultrabook bears a striking resemblance to a certain apple device.
 
i wouldn't characterize my reply to your post as being "really commited [sic] on this one"; instead, i was just replying to your post. if you don't think the usb cords look alike, it's cool...no biggie. but, you still haven't replied to my question; and you don't have to. it's just that, when i quote others' posts, i usually reply to what was originally posted, instead of spinning off onto another subject |or| i reply to what was originally posted, then i spin off onto another subject.

regarding the remainder of your post, i'm not sure of what your aim is. i haven't complained about anything. clearly, my mistake was not adding words to my original post indicating "look how similar these two usb cords appear...one is made by apple, and the other is made by samsung."

anyway, i'll be around for the rest of the day...i'm all stocked up on capri sun and my samsung ultrabook from which i'm posting replies is humming along nicely. as an aside, my ultrabook bears a striking resemblance to a certain apple device.

Sorry it wasn't meant to sound like an attack. Sometimes I just sound really grumpy when I read these things back. Overall I see a lot of areas where Samsung definitively aped minor details, so it irks me to a degree when the claim is made on something either trivial or non-definitive in that regard. On a side note, I think I've seen one of those ultrabooks.
 
kdarling said:
Hopefully you don't think that the idea of an API should be patented, which is basically all that Apple did.

You know as well as I do that isn't true.

kdarling said:
I agree it's not trivial to do it, but Apple's patent had nothing to do with actual methods.

I implore you to read the patent claims. They have no details on how the matching is done, only the idea that it should be done by separate code.

There was no copying involved here. Only a generic patent that should never have been granted, and which thankfully expires in 2016.

Software patents don't always express their inner workings, nor should it be necessary that they do. If the only protection a software patent afforded was so specific it only covered a single set of steps, and those steps were listed one by one in the patent, it would be trivial for anyone to copy the overall logic, obfuscate their methods and appear unique.

As I noted above, there is no "specifically" involved. It's a generic patent. The primary claim that Apple is using against Samsung/Google is this:

  • A computer-based system for detecting structures in data and performing actions on detected structures, comprising:
  • an input device for receiving data;
  • an output device for presenting the data;
  • a processing unit coupled to the input device, the output device, and the memory for controlling the execution of the program routines.
= A computer with input and output.

  • a memory storing information including program routines including
  • an analyzer server for detecting structures in the data, and for linking actions to the detected structures;
= The idea of using common code to search for linkable data.

  • a user interface enabling the selection of a detected structure and a linked action; and
  • an action processor for performing the selected action linked to the selected structure; and
= The idea of presenting a link and taking an action when that link is selected by the user.

That's it. If you really are a software developer, you should be horrified that such a generic patent idea would ever be granted, much less used against anyone who independently implements it.

I've been a developer for over 20y and I'm also the CTO for the company I work for. Throughout my career I have never found myself in a situation that I was not able to solve a problem without infringing on someone else's protected work.

I'm not horrified by either sides implementation or their will to protect it. I see value in an API that performs such a complex task so quickly. If you are also a developer, you know as well as I do regex is not going to work on physical addresses. A lot of time and effort went into making this developer friendly across an entire OS.

Apple's 647 and Linkify are identical solutions to the same problem. I've read Apple's patent and the source to Linkify, and I'm glad the court saw the similarities and value the API provides.
 
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They both infringed but Apple owes Samsung $158,400 and Samsung will have to cut Apple a check for $119,625,000.

I love our impartial and always fair legal system. Thanks Cupertino Jurors!
 
Software patents don't always express their inner workings, nor should it be necessary that they do.

And this is the big problem with those patents, they only patent ideas and are broad.


If the only protection a software patent afforded was so specific it only covered a single set of steps, and those steps were listed one by one in the patent, it would be trivial for anyone to copy the overall logic, obfuscate their methods and appear unique.

This is where copyright is useful
 
And this is the big problem with those patents, they only patent ideas and are broad.
They're broad because they have to be. What do you expect, for them to outline exactly how they solved a problem step by step? That would make it rather easy to copy their implementation and change it just enough to make it unique.

If you were a restaurant, would you give customers your recipes with their order?

This is where copyright is useful
Are you a developer? If you aren't it's easy to assume copyright would work for software. If you are you would know why it wouldn't.
 
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