Just Curious (learning Photoshop/Illustrator/Freehand vs. InDesign/Quark)

[ukjabber]

Hi all,

this is more out of curiosity more than anything else.

I moved to Asia a few years ago and now work has picked up to a degree that I now need to employ someone. So I have the following question.

When you went to design school / college / university did they teach you to use Pagemaker / Quark or InDesign along with Illustrator / Freehand and Photoshop?

It seems that alot of people out here have experience in Photoshop and Illustrator / Freehand but not InDesign or Quark! I find that strange as i always split them down. Photoshop for image manipulation, Illustrator for vector and InDesign / Quark for page layout. It seems out here that most finished work is done in Illustrator. Surely the accuracy of typography, style sheets etc makes page layout programs better. I know freehand had alot of those features if I remember and that alot of people used to use it for page layout but that's gone now so I wonder why people haven't migrated to the InDesigns of this world.

Also for those older users (myself included), how different is Pagemaker to InDesign? I used Quark back in those days but are there some serious differences? I know that technology has moved on quite a bit but generally speaking rather than features.

Feedback appreciated.

 

[covisio]

Although I've not used Pagemaker, I believe Quark and InDesign are significantly more advanced page layout applications.
Pagemaker was Adobe's (not very good) rival to Quark before they introduced InDesign in 1999.
With regard to regional 'traditions' in artwork/publishing, this seems to have always been a feature of our industry, where different countries just do things differently. I noticed this when doing some work in the Philippines, some very odd habits - one thing they did when I arrived was (for packaging repro), they constructed each colour separation on a separate Illustrator document in black, i.e. they had a document for yellow, a document for cyan, a document for Red 485, etc.
I trained them how to do it all correctly with the right tools, which is what you have the opportunity to do. Just because they haven't done it before doesn't mean they can't learn. I found the guys in the Philippines to be great at picking things up and learning new skills, it was a joy to work with them.

 

[design-is]

At uni they didn't specifically teach us any software. We were introduced to Quark 4 for a project, but just so we could do the project, rather than learn the software. It was all more about creative thinking.

InDesign CS4 could be thought of as Pagemaker 13 (didn't it end on 7, and InDesign is now version 6?). Quark was the industry leader for a long time, but now Adobe has got it beat.

InDesign is, for those with experience of the other CS packages (Photoshop etc), a lot easier to pick up. In their latest incarnations, QuarkXpress and Adobe InDesign are both extremely capable and its just personal preference that separates them really. I prefer InDesign and always have done, but everyone has their own thoughts on that.

I learnt a lot of my software skills in my first job, so as longs you get someone who learns fast, then you'll be fine. Or go for someone with experience and evidence of their experience working in a similar environment to that which you want them to work. A fast learner who stays up-to-date with the best ways to do things will prove the best investment. People who think of the software as the tool, and pick the best one for the job, rather than someone who only knows how to use one piece of software.

Think I rambled a bit there, hope it helped none-the-less

/Doug

 

[jerryrock]

My college taught QuarkXpress, InDesign, Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, and Corel Painter as well as the Mac OS for those of us that were unfamiliar.

These were required courses, the thought being that both publishing programs are currently being used, as a graphic designer you needed to know both as well and Mac and PC platforms.

 

[Dal123]

At college we learnt Quark Xpress, Illustrator, Photoshop. That was about it, I think Quark is a bit over-rated myself and do prefer Ind-Design, but I'm probably missing something here as I'm just a construction worker and merely done a couple of years at college with Graphic Design (Did love it though).

 

[MacBoobsPro]

10 years ago we were taught Freehand, Quark and Photoshop. InDesign didn't exist and Illustrator had only just appeared.

These days Freehand is (unfortunately) dead and Quark is as crap as its always been. Illustrator, Indesign and Photoshop are the way forward for print work.

If someone tells you they use Illustrator or Freehand for multipage work i.e. magazines brochures etc avoid hiring them. And also avoid people that create logos in Quark, Indesign or Photoshop. They will be wasting your time to-ing and fro-ing between apps in the wrong direction.

Illustrator is for vector work, logos, illustrations etc.
Indesign/Quark is for multipage documents.
Photoshop is for image creation (to then be used in Indesign/Quark).

 

[covisio]

If someone tells you they use Illustrator or Freehand for multipage work i.e. magazines brochures etc avoid hiring them. And also avoid people that create logos in Quark, Indesign or Photoshop. They will be wasting your time to-ing and fro-ing between apps in the wrong direction.

Unfortunately in some environments you don't get that choice of employee. Yes, ideally, you want to hire someone with experience of doing things the 'right way', but if not you take the next best thing and teach them to do it right. It's not necessarily their fault if they've picked up bad habits.
Some employers are so tight-fisted they'll make their employees struggle on with inappropriate software as long as they can get away with it.

 

[MacBoobsPro]

Unfortunately in some environments you don't get that choice of employee. Yes, ideally, you want to hire someone with experience of doing things the 'right way', but if not you take the next best thing and teach them to do it right. It's not necessarily their fault if they've picked up bad habits.
Some employers are so tight-fisted they'll make their employees struggle on with inappropriate software as long as they can get away with it.

Not all employers have the time to train.

 

[Darth.Titan]

Although I've not used Pagemaker, I believe Quark and InDesign are significantly more advanced page layout applications.
Pagemaker was Adobe's (not very good) rival to Quark before they introduced InDesign in 1999.

Actually PageMaker was the first major page-layout program for Mac. Originally Aldus Pagemaker, it preceded Quark by about two years. When Quark started gaining marketshare Adobe bought Pagemaker from Aldus and rolled out InDesign to replace it a few years later.

 

[powers74]

layout

I don't see how anyone in the creative field can live without InDesign. It's just about my favorite piece of software. If it's over 1 page, it's InDesign, although, the new project boards function in Illustrator CS4 makes it a little better for doing a few pages... (that's not exactly what it's called, but it's something like that, I'm not at my design machine right now)

While I was getting my Graphic Design degree I was of course introduced to Quark then InDesign, it was right in that CS transition period. But when I went on to get my Industrial Design degree everyone was putting together their process books together in Illustrator! We're talking 10 page documents minimum! So people I liked I would train in InDesign. If I saw a cocky jackass trying to put a 60 page process book together in Illustrator, I would usually just let him suffer!

Every once in a while I'll get the bright idea that I'll put a 2 page document together in Photoshop or Illustrator, but about a half hour in I'll realize what a retarded idea it was and revert back to InDesign. It's great.

 

[Rt&Dzine]

I don't see how anyone in the creative field can live without InDesign. It's just about my favorite piece of software. If it's over 1 page, it's InDesign, although, the new project boards function in Illustrator CS4 makes it a little better for doing a few pages... (that's not exactly what it's called, but it's something like that, I'm not at my design machine right now)

While I was getting my Graphic Design degree I was of course introduced to Quark then InDesign, it was right in that CS transition period. But when I went on to get my Industrial Design degree everyone was putting together their process books together in Illustrator! We're talking 10 page documents minimum! So people I liked I would train in InDesign. If I saw a cocky jackass trying to put a 60 page process book together in Illustrator, I would usually just let him suffer!

Every once in a while I'll get the bright idea that I'll put a 2 page document together in Photoshop or Illustrator, but about a half hour in I'll realize what a retarded idea it was and revert back to InDesign. It's great.

I love InDesign too. I use it more than any other software because a lot of my work is designing books. I'm always surprised when someone uses Illustrator for layout. Although I don't have CS4 and it sounds better. I have to force myself to use Illustrator. Maybe that's a holdover from my preference for Freehand.

 

[design-is]

I don't see how anyone in the creative field can live without InDesign. It's just about my favorite piece of software.
<snip>
While I was getting my Graphic Design degree I was of course introduced to Quark then InDesign, it was right in that CS transition period.
<snip>

Same goes for me. I had to use QaurkXpress for many years, because that's what the place I worked in used (twice). But now I'm happy to say InDesign is the tool of choice

/Doug

 

[covisio]

Actually PageMaker was the first major page-layout program for Mac. Originally Aldus Pagemaker, it preceded Quark by about two years. When Quark started gaining marketshare Adobe bought Pagemaker from Aldus and rolled out InDesign to replace it a few years later.

I don't really remember Pagemaker having much of a market share in the UK publishing arena at all. I think we got Quark in around 1989/90, it replacing both an almost-bespoke hybrid page layout/typesetting system (for the editorial and classified ads) and something called Ad Builder for the display ads.
Pagemaker was never mentioned at all. Possibly in other countries there was already an established user-base.

 

[pixelated]

Finished my BA hons Arch in the UK this year, and we were taught on Adobe (Ps, Ai, Id, Ae...excluding specific CAD programs)

 

[ukjabber]

thanks for the replies people.

When I first started out many moons ago I admit and yes you can beat me severely with a large stick, coreldraw. That was when I was naiive and a pc user.

I then got introduced to the mac and quark and used that for all my adverts and stuff. However as Quark used to provide those very nice 401 (was that the code) everytime I went to output a piece of artwork on a treacherous deadline I looked more into InDesign. I think what was when the 1st one came out. Ever since I've been on InDesign. No stupid errors, pdf's actually output and rarely cause a problem with dropping things off the page like Quark used to.

Now I'm talking version 4 & 5 Quark so I don't know what the latest is these days.

Anyways... I've done my interviewing and yes as I thought, they are either working in Freehand (non-existent these days) or Pagemaker (also dead and buried) or would you believe it... Photoshop! I mean WTF!! Now when I say working on I actually mean producing brochures and flyers. I understand the Freehand thing, although I've never been a fan myself, but Pagemaker is how old now? And Photoshop!

To give you an example I put alot of conference brochures together. Nothing fancy, nothing too designy but 6 pages of text. ALOT of text. Can you imagine trying to set that up in illustrator or freehand or how about Photoshop. The mind boggles.

Luckily I actually found 2 candidates that 1. knew what InDesign was for and 2. could actually use it.

So it seems that in Asia at the moment, unless you have come from a large design studio where, as someone mentioned earlier, you've been taught to use the proper program for the specific job in hand, that old-hat programs are still in use. Oh and funnily enough 2 people worked at a bureau. I thought those businesses had vanished. None left at all in my hometown in the UK. All gone t*ts up with the internet, pdf output, ctp etc etc.

Anyways. Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated.