Just purchased— iMac questions

[Dhonk]

I’ve been a Mac user for a while, using a 2010 MBA 11” and then 2014 MBP 13”. Occasionally my wife has wanted something more than her iPad for document use or messing around with photos of our animals. I’ve contemplated an iMac and a new MBA, basically to split the use that I currently get out of my old MBP. Normally I’m a fan of future-proofing systems but upgrading RAM and processor. I primarily use my computer for mail, web browsing (4-6 tabs), iMessage, and Numbers. Given that we’re doing nothing too complex, I thought I’d jump on Best Buy’s $999 basic 21.5” iMac deal (4K 21.5” i3 8GB RAM 1TB HD). While it has an i3, I figured a desktop i3 was probably adequate for our usage for a few years.

upon loading it, I was shocked at how every time I’d open an app, the spinning beach ball of death appeared. Upon loading, I would close the apps and re-open them and they seemed to load a bit faster. I’m use to decent responsiveness, and I’m shocked that Apple would sell something that seems so underpowered for even a casual user.
Questions:
1) is the 8th Gen i3 really that poor/slow
2) is the Mac still optimizing itself after syncing with iCloud and whatnot?
3) is the slowness because it is lacking either Fusion or SSD?
4) will the system start to act more responsive as its used a bit and not updating/optimizing?

 

[krazzix]

1. No
2. Maybe
3. Yes, definitely
4. Maybe

 

[robbieduncan]

One you are used to SSD/flash in an iPad going back to a spinning disk will feel absolutely terrible. Can you still return it?

 

[mj_]

The first time you launch an application it has to be loaded from your hard drive into RAM, which is why it takes a while to launch. When you close it macOS does not remove its contents from RAM but rather marks that part as reusable cache. When you launch the same application again it only has to load whatever has already been overwritten in RAM, which is usually a lot less than before.

The bottom line is: keep your applications open and don't shutdown your iMac at the end of the day and when you're done working but put it in standby instead and leave your applications open and running in the background instead of closing them. Based on your requirements 8GB are more than enough to keep all your applications running in the background without causing any slowdowns.

 

[Fishrrman]

OP:

You've got a problem.
You've bought an iMac with a platter-based hard drive inside.
It will NEVER run faster because of this, and in time it will get even SLOWER.

My suggestion is that you return this particular iMac as soon as possible, and order one with an SSD inside instead.
(Important: iMacs with SSDs MUST be special-ordered through Apple's online buying pages, they aren't sold in stores).
Or... you could buy an Apple-refurbished iMac with a pre-installed SSD.

Your only other options if you decide to keep what you have now:
1. Install an internal SSD. This means prying open the iMac, and you really don't want to do this with a computer still under warranty.
2. Buy and connect an EXTERNAL SSD (USB3 would be a good choice). Then, set it up to become the boot drive. If you do this, the iMac will boot and run MUCH faster.

So again... either return it for one with an INTERNAL SSD (which will be considerably faster than a USB3 SSD), or use an external USB3 SSD instead.

 

[theluggage]

2) is the Mac still optimizing itself after syncing with iCloud and whatnot?

Quite possibly - especially if you've loaded it up with your files and apps. I'd leave it chugging away overnight before making judgements.

3) is the slowness because it is lacking either Fusion or SSD?

Yes. You've got used to a SSD on the MBA and MBP and using anything with a mechanical hard drive is going to feel like kicking a dead whale along a beach.

 

[Dhonk]

One you are used to SSD/flash in an iPad going back to a spinning disk will feel absolutely terrible. Can you still return it?

yes, 15-day return window, maybe small restocking fee. Otherwise I wouldn’t have bought this system. But when I started building like I normally would (with educator discount or by finding deals online), the 21” 4K iMac starts to be $1500+. Figured this was worth trying
[automerge]1585321776[/automerge]
Thanks for the feedback. I knew the value of a SSD in an older system, because 2 years ago my work MacBook was super slow and—to avoid throwing it against a wall— I upgraded the RAM and went to a SSD. I guess I assumed that newer traditional Hard drives would read/write faster than 8-year old ones.
I’ll try playing with the system again today, but sounds like I’ll be returning it this weekend or early next week. Now it’s just annoying that I have to wipe it clean.

one positive I learned--my posture is a lot better with an iMac, and I immediately noticed my sore neck went away.

 

[nambuccaheadsau]

HDD ain't changed. Return it today.

 

[profcutter]

There’s nothing you can do about the physics of a head mounted on an arm, scratching across the surface of a spinning disk. It’s better than a floppy or a tape drive, but at this point it seems downright archaic, especially one running at 5400 RPM (unbelievable!). It’s just a terrible drive. I’d second the idea of buying an enclosure with a NVME ssd inside it, preferably Thunderbolt 3 not USB 3. That said, the 4K iMac also makes it extremely difficult to upgrade your RAM. I steered my father to the bottom of the line 5k mac. Just a bit more money, much better (larger) screen, and at least it’s a fusion drive. I wouldn’t be able to put up with it, but for his purposes it’s fine. The i5 is plenty fast, and it does everything he needs it to. If necessary, we can upgrade the RAM easily later on, and if the fusion drive becomes a problem we can just do an external, the rest of the machine would make it worthwhile.

One other point: at least 2 retailers offer custom configured machines: B&H and Expercom. They might be worth checking out to see about a machine already configured with an SSD.

 

[Dhonk]

thanks again. I already have SSD's in an enclosure. I hadn't thought of that, but I could use that. Since I have the SSD already, I'd save $400-500 over some of the other options online.

I have to say, after using the iMac a bit today, it isn't running bad. I saw maybe a few hiccups, but no spinning beach ball of death. We'll give it the weekend.

 

[Fishrrman]

OP:

Since you ALREADY HAVE USB3 external SSDs (right...?), why don't you do an experiment with one of them?

Set one up to be the boot drive, and then use something like BlackMagic Speed Test (free app) to benchmark between the internal drive and the external SSD.

This is CHILD'S PLAY on a Mac.
You have no excuse not to "try this for yourself".

Just download CarbonCopyCloner from here:
Carbon Copy Cloner - Download
CCC is FREE to use for 30 days.

Then... connect the SSD.
Use Disk Utility to erase the SSD to either APFS (for Mojave or Catalina)
or
Mac OS extended with journaling enabled (for High Sierra and earlier).

Then use CCC to "clone" the contents of the internal drive to the external.
It will take a little time.

Next, REBOOT, and HOLD DOWN THE OPTION KEY CONTINUOUSLY until the startup manager appears.
Select the SSD and hit return.

Do you get a "good boot"?
Then go to the Startup Disk pref pane and set the SSD to be the new boot drive.

Run BlackMagic on it and post your results here.

I promise you:
You WILL like the results you get from doing this.

 

[Dhonk]

Since you ALREADY HAVE USB3 external SSDs (right...?), why don't you do an experiment with one of them?

Last night I found the SSD and enclosure (glad I have it, and it's not in quarantine in my classroom!). I cloned the computer to the SSD. Definitely faster

Set one up to be the boot drive, and then use something like BlackMagic Speed Test (free app) to benchmark between the internal drive and the external SSD.

Good idea. Just did that, and here's the results.

 

[profcutter]

Looks like SATA ssds. Faster than the spinner, but an NVME would be almost 10’times as fast with the right enclosure.

 

[Dhonk]

I'll check it out, but I think it's an SATA. It's also connected using a usb to micro b. I ordered an enclosure for it that is usb-c to usb-c, figuring that's a bit faster. Even then I had another old SSD lying around that I might as well make usable with it.

Could you please point me in the right direction for something affordable. Do they require a drive and an enclosure, or to they come as packaged external units already? Obviously I have this old SSD already for storage, so I don't need a ton of storage on a faster drive. Even then, we primarily have our data in iCloud. thanks.

 

[profcutter]

OK, no problem. SSDs these days come in two primary form factors. The older style, which is in a case that looks like a hard drive, and uses an SATA interface. These completely max out at around 500MB/s because that is the limit of the interface. SATA was never designed for high-speed devices. Most are a bit slower.

The other factor is called an NVME, it looks like a stick, and is not limited by SATA speeds, rather it uses what's called a PCI interface, and can reach speeds in some cases as high as 5000MB/s.

A modified version of NVME was what Apple used internally in macs, up until they went with their own proprietary style, which is soldered in and unchangeable: MacBook Pro after 2016, new Mac Pro, MacBook Air after 2017, though iMacs still use the NVME blade style drive. If you were feeling adventurous, you could open up your iMac, and you may have a slot for one of these blade drives internally that you could just pop a drive and an adaptor into, and have an extremely fast internal drive. I would check this out and verify it first, many of the smaller older iMacs didn't have the slot, it just depends on the year.

What would increase the speed of your mac by a serious factor would be one of the NVME drives in a thunderbolt 3 enclosure. You could go with something like this, it's not thunderbolt 3, but it's USB C, and it's probably plenty fast for your needs:

SSK Aluminum M.2 NVME SATA SSD Enclosure Adapter, USB 3.2 Gen 2 (10 Gbps) to NVME PCI-E SATA M-Key/(B+M) Key Solid State Drive External Enclosure Support UASP Trim for NVME/SATA SSDs 2242/2260/2280

SSK Aluminum M.2 NVME SATA SSD Enclosure Adapter, USB 3.2 Gen 2 (10 Gbps) to NVME PCI-E SATA M-Key/(B+M) Key Solid State Drive External Enclosure Support UASP Trim for NVME/SATA SSDs 2242/2260/2280

smile.amazon.com

You would need to put a drive in it. This one wouldn't be bad:

Western Digital 500GB WD Blue SN550 NVMe Internal SSD - Gen3 x4 PCIe 8Gb/s, M.2 2280, 3D NAND, Up to 2,400 MB/s - WDS500G2B0C

Put NVMe power at the heart of your PC for lightning-fast, ultra-responsive performance. The WD Blue SN550 NVMe SSD can deliver over 4 times the speed of our best SATA SSDs. Whether you're working, creating, casual gaming or processing large amounts of data, take advantage of this powerful intern...

smile.amazon.com

At the end of the day, it's going to be up to you to decide what makes the most sense. Like I mentioned above, I would imagine in your use case, getting a bottom of the line refurb 27 inch would do you a world of good. It comes with a Fusion drive, so not as fast as a pure SSD, but fine for light duty work. This is only if returning the one you have is still an option. The arrangement you put together now, with the existing SSD connected externally, would be a marked improvement over the built-in drive. The NVME would be another step faster. If your current arrangement is fast enough, then I'd say stick with it, especially if you're past the return period. The other concern you're going to run into is that if you end up doing more intensive work, the RAM built in to your machine could eventually become a problem. Not if you're just using word, safari, and preview, but if you do anything more intense, you might want 16 GB. It is possible to upgrade your machine, but you would have to take the whole thing apart. It can be done, but it's not easy. If you're worried about future-proofing, which is never entirely possible, a 27 inch has an easy-access RAM slot in the back for expansion.

 

[Dhonk]

OK, no problem. SSDs these days come in two primary form factors. The older style, which is in a case that looks like a hard drive, and uses an SATA interface. These completely max out at around 500MB/s because that is the limit of the interface. SATA was never designed for high-speed devices. Most are a bit slower.

The other factor is called an NVME, it looks like a stick, and is not limited by SATA speeds, rather it uses what's called a PCI interface, and can reach speeds in some cases as high as 5000MB/s.

A modified version of NVME was what Apple used internally in macs, up until they went with their own proprietary style, which is soldered in and unchangeable: MacBook Pro after 2016, new Mac Pro, MacBook Air after 2017, though iMacs still use the NVME blade style drive. If you were feeling adventurous, you could open up your iMac, and you may have a slot for one of these blade drives internally that you could just pop a drive and an adaptor into, and have an extremely fast internal drive. I would check this out and verify it first, many of the smaller older iMacs didn't have the slot, it just depends on the year.

What would increase the speed of your mac by a serious factor would be one of the NVME drives in a thunderbolt 3 enclosure. You could go with something like this, it's not thunderbolt 3, but it's USB C, and it's probably plenty fast for your needs:

SSK Aluminum M.2 NVME SATA SSD Enclosure Adapter, USB 3.2 Gen 2 (10 Gbps) to NVME PCI-E SATA M-Key/(B+M) Key Solid State Drive External Enclosure Support UASP Trim for NVME/SATA SSDs 2242/2260/2280

SSK Aluminum M.2 NVME SATA SSD Enclosure Adapter, USB 3.2 Gen 2 (10 Gbps) to NVME PCI-E SATA M-Key/(B+M) Key Solid State Drive External Enclosure Support UASP Trim for NVME/SATA SSDs 2242/2260/2280

smile.amazon.com

You would need to put a drive in it. This one wouldn't be bad:

Western Digital 500GB WD Blue SN550 NVMe Internal SSD - Gen3 x4 PCIe 8Gb/s, M.2 2280, 3D NAND, Up to 2,400 MB/s - WDS500G2B0C

Put NVMe power at the heart of your PC for lightning-fast, ultra-responsive performance. The WD Blue SN550 NVMe SSD can deliver over 4 times the speed of our best SATA SSDs. Whether you're working, creating, casual gaming or processing large amounts of data, take advantage of this powerful intern...

smile.amazon.com

At the end of the day, it's going to be up to you to decide what makes the most sense. Like I mentioned above, I would imagine in your use case, getting a bottom of the line refurb 27 inch would do you a world of good. It comes with a Fusion drive, so not as fast as a pure SSD, but fine for light duty work. This is only if returning the one you have is still an option. The arrangement you put together now, with the existing SSD connected externally, would be a marked improvement over the built-in drive. The NVME would be another step faster. If your current arrangement is fast enough, then I'd say stick with it, especially if you're past the return period. The other concern you're going to run into is that if you end up doing more intensive work, the RAM built in to your machine could eventually become a problem. Not if you're just using word, safari, and preview, but if you do anything more intense, you might want 16 GB. It is possible to upgrade your machine, but you would have to take the whole thing apart. It can be done, but it's not easy. If you're worried about future-proofing, which is never entirely possible, a 27 inch has an easy-access RAM slot in the back for expansion.

thanks for all your help. I just learned quite a bit through your comments, advice, and other internet research it prompted. I'll give this a few more days, but the external SATA SSD setup is blowing away the internal drive. I'd rather not work to pry into the machine, so I'll either return it or keep it this way. I've primarily been a MacBook user, and this is giving us a workable iMac. I'll also keep shopping around for any better deals during this 15 day window to return it.

 

[Fishrrman]

OP:
Re the disk speeds you posted in #12 above:

430MBps is about "the best you can get" from a SATA SSD in a USB3 enclosure.
Your results indicate that you're "right there", for all practical purposes.

The write speeds of the SSD are pretty well "up there", too.

So... my suggestion is you keep using it this way (unless you decide that you want to return it for an iMac with an internal SSD, which will be 3-4x faster).

I ran a 2012 Mini for 6 years from an external SSD with these speeds, and it never felt "slow" in all that time...

 

[jlseattle]

So I'll just reply and answer your questions. I bought an 21" iMac with an i7 processor. The hard drive they slap into this computer (if not the SSD or the "fusion drive") is slow as a dog. It's 5400rpm. It's slow.

So you are suffering from a myriad of issues on that computer.

My advice. Save your money. Save up and get an iMac that will last you a few years. minimum specs: i5 processor and an fusion drive.

 

[volkwagen1300]

thanks for all your help. I just learned quite a bit through your comments, advice, and other internet research it prompted. I'll give this a few more days, but the external SATA SSD setup is blowing away the internal drive. I'd rather not work to pry into the machine, so I'll either return it or keep it this way. I've primarily been a MacBook user, and this is giving us a workable iMac. I'll also keep shopping around for any better deals during this 15 day window to return it.

I was in the same place as you about a year and a half ago - got a very good deal on the 2017 iMac with the 5400 rpm HDD. I also cloned it to an external USB 3 drive (Samsung T5) and have been using that as my boot drive ever since. If you're doing documents and light photo editing etc like me - "nothing too complex" as you said, you'll be fine.