Just wondering: Why does Apple penetratingly refuse to show tree structures in file operations?

[rin67630]

Being under Mojave for software compatibility reasons, I'm always on the edge of a nervous breakdown when it comes to saving a file from an application.
When I want to save a document, the window just indicates the name of the last used directory of my tree structure, the indication of the parent directories is hidden to the user, I may switch to a "Restricted Finder" mode, but without having any possibility of showing up a parent level directory either.
How do you find out?

Apple's refusal to show us a tree annoys me to the highest degree.

There is also a list of recently used directory names, but again without any ability to see their parent directories.
You can thus e.g. see the name "letters" five times, without ever knowing which client each letters folder belongs to.

If you don't pay attention to death, you end up with a registered document somewhere, but won't know where...

The "Recents" pseudo-directory isn't even a workaround, it's a lottery, you never know what will or won't be shown there.

I wonder what mental deranged guy programmed this system.
I'm not even talking about saving a file in two different directories from an application...

Did it get better under Monterrey or is it still so stupidly managed?

Why does Apple so penetratingly refuse to show the very practical tree structures in file operations?
Is is a matter of intellectual property or just a stubborning "think different" mentality?

 

[mfram]

This may depend on the program you are using to save files. Although there are standard Save File dialogs in MacOS, the application developer is free to create their own if they wish. The answer depends on the program. I just tried to save a file from Safari of this web page. It brings up a Save dialog where the current directory is a pull-down. If you click on the directory it will show you the tree of directories used to get there. You can go up the tree as much as you'd wish.

It's probably best to show us a screen shot of what you see for a Save dialog.

 

[rin67630]

This is the standard extended save dialog from Textedit

"16_Behörde und Bücher" belongs to which parents?
How can you go up in the hierarchy?
How can you see the hierarchy tree?

 

[mfram]

The button with the directory name is a pull-down. The icon on the right side of the button with the up-arrow and down-arrow indicates that. Click on the button and it will show you the parent directories. You can move up the list as far as you'd like. If you want a sibling directory, go up one level and then down another directory by double-clicking it from the parent list.

 

[joevt]

There's a few options:

- "15_Behörde und Bücher" is a hierarchy list menu which will show all the parents. Click that. It also has options for recent locations.

- You can type "Command-Shift-G" just like in the Finder to enter the path of a known location.

- "Command-Shift-Up Arrow" to go to the parent folder.

- You can drag a file or folder into the file list part of the window from the Finder to go to the same location. Be careful with this - I've seen some rare occasions where this actually does a file copy or move, but Command-Z for undo should fix that. That dumb behaviour is something I expect from Windows, not macOS.

 

[skottichan]

Adding on to what others have said. if you click on the icon directly to the right of the left/right arrows in the save dialogue box, changing your view to "column" would be an easy way to navigate as well.

 

[uller6]

You can use the following command in terminal to use the expanded save dialogue by default: defaults write -g NSNavPanelExpandedStateForSaveMode -bool TRUE

Also, there are two different ways to show the full pathname in Finder windows, which can also really help orient you in the file tree.

In Finder, you can click on View > Show Path Bar

Or, you can open terminal and type the following: defaults write com.apple.finder _FXShowPosixPathInTitle -bool YES; killall Finder

 

[rin67630]

The button with the directory name is a pull-down.

Thank you.
I finally have understood that completely counter intuitive concept.
The directories listed there are the hierarchy tree, but listed in the opposite order and without any indentation.
Puh!

It would probably be asking too much from Apple's designers to show us a tree as a tree, like it is done everywhere else, or at least to name the frame "Hierarchy" like it is done for "Favourites", "iCloud", "Recent Places"...

 

[rin67630]

You can use the following command in terminal to use the expanded save dialogue by default: defaults write -g NSNavPanelExpandedStateForSaveMode -bool TRUE

Thank you, but the basic problem was for me to get a step upwards in the hierarchy, which is in the expanded dialog as counter-intuitive, as it is in the short presentation.

 

[MajorFubar]

The reason they do this by default is because most people haven't the slightest clue about folder/directory structure. Ask Joe Average where they saved something, they'll say 'on the computer'.

Showing the path-bar is the closest to what you want. Also, put shortcuts to your most used folders in the sidebar.

 

[rin67630]

The reason they do this by default is because most people haven't the slightest clue about folder/directory structure. Ask Joe Average where they saved something, they'll say 'on the computer'.

Showing the path-bar is the closest to what you want. Also, put shortcuts to your most used folders in the sidebar.

And Apple is iOS-fying macOS more and more with every iteration.
At the end, only Apple will know, where your files are stored, so the Company knows exactly everything you are doing and you get trapped into their software, being unable to migrate your content to any competitor.

It's a vicious trend in the whole industry, not only from Apple.


Currently the path bar is not displayed in saving dialogs, only in the Finder.

 

[MajorFubar]

At the end, only Apple will know, where your files are stored, so the Company knows exactly everything you are doing and you get trapped into their software, being unable to migrate your content to any competitor.

It's a vicious trend in the whole industry, not only from Apple.


Currently the path bar is not displayed in saving dialogs, only in the Finder.

Gotta be honest, I think you're really overracting. I do get your annoyance, but there are solutions. Also, I hope your idea that at some point only Apple will know where your files are saved is just hyperbole fuelled by frustration, because you must know that's absurd.

 

[Slartibart]

And Apple is iOS-fying macOS more and more with every iteration.
At the end, only Apple will know, where your files are stored, so the Company knows exactly everything you are doing and you get trapped into their software, being unable to migrate your content to any competitor.

It's a vicious trend in the whole industry, not only from Apple.


Currently the path bar is not displayed in saving dialogs, only in the Finder.

Well, the GUI in the Open/Save-dialogue isn’t exactly new. 😀
There is no iOS-ification-conspiracy going on here. 😆

Additionally you might find that you can easily navigate the Open/Save dialogue - incl. changing into the upper folder of the current one open - from the keyboard.
E.g. using theCommand key, together with arrow keys, you can move around your Mac’s file system - and there are plenty of keyboard shortcuts available, you can activate more via the system preferences/settings. Apple Support provides an overview on these - please navigate from there to find how to activate more or how to create your own.

Otherwise I concur with @MajorFubar.

 

[rin67630]

Also, I hope your idea that at some point only Apple will know where your files are saved is just hyperbole fuelled by frustration, because you must know that's absurd.

Once they have reached the point in a near future that you get your content only from Spotlight and iCloud, that will be the case. There they want to go... Microsoft as well. Google is already close to that target.

Additionally you might find that you can easily navigate the Open/Save dialogue - incl. changing into the upper folder of the current one open - from the keyboard.

Keyboard shortcuts are not a replacement for an ill-designed GUI.
Not everybody has been nursed with Apple's shortcuts in the mother's milk.

 

[MajorFubar]

Ok I guess this is where I'll leave the conversation, because I've already been chastised by mods once this week for telling someone in another thread that they didn't seem to actually want help to solve their problem they just wanted some kind of mass-vindication of their opinion via an international committee. (I may not have chosen that polite way of saying it, hence 48-hour ban).

Solutions / workarounds have been suggested. It's now up to you.

LLAP.

 

[Slartibart]

Keyboard shortcuts are not a replacement for an ill-designed GUI.

well… de gustibus non disputandum est… however we’re on MR 🤣😂😆💪😎

Not everybody has been nursed with Apple's shortcuts in the mother's milk.

That was the reason why I provided a link and others made previously other suggestions. Welcome to Mac Rumors btw., we try to help here. 🤓

 

[rin67630]

That was the reason why I provided a link and others made previously other suggestions. Welcome to Mac Rumors btw., we try to help here. 🤓

Thank you for the help. At least I have now understood that weird stuff and can use it as it is.

well… de gustibus non disputandum est…

It's not a matter of taste, but to respect their own Apple design guidelines:
Use alignment to ease visual scanning and to communicate organization and hierarchy. Alignment makes an app look neat and organized, helps people focus while scrolling, and makes it easier to find information. Indentation and alignment can also help people visualize an information hierarchy.
...
An outline view includes at least one column that contains primary hierarchical data, such as a set of parent containers and their children. You can add columns, as needed, to display attributes that supplement the primary data; for example, sizes and modification dates. Parent containers have disclosure triangles that expand to reveal their children.

 

[Slartibart]

but preferring keyboard access over navigating with the mouse is a matter of taste. 🤓

For everything else: please provide feedback to Apple, if you haven’t already done so.

Have a marvellous day!

 

[Tagbert]

Thank you for the help. At least I have now understood that weird stuff and can use it as it is.

It's not a matter of taste, but to respect their own Apple design guidelines:
Use alignment to ease visual scanning and to communicate organization and hierarchy. Alignment makes an app look neat and organized, helps people focus while scrolling, and makes it easier to find information. Indentation and alignment can also help people visualize an information hierarchy.
...
An outline view includes at least one column that contains primary hierarchical data, such as a set of parent containers and their children. You can add columns, as needed, to display attributes that supplement the primary data; for example, sizes and modification dates. Parent containers have disclosure triangles that expand to reveal their children.

In this case, the list of folders is a path, not a tree. There is a single path from the current folder to the root. Indentation would not tell you anything that the up/down list isn’t already telling you.