"Kill JPEG": Northrup video on adopting HEVC & HEIC/HEIF instead

[robgendreau]

I know that the mere mention of Mr. Northrup's name often sends people into a tizzy (often with justification), but I have to say I agree with him on this one.

The argument is that camera companies should adopt HEVC/HEIF/HEIC as the format for their compressed images instead of JPEG. Aside from the often repeated point that the compression is better by a factor of two, and the quality better, he breaks down how all those extra JPEG bits cost us over time, in storage space, SD card space, writing times, online storage, and so on. All of which is true. And yes, there are hardware needs and licensing and such, but JPEG is old as the hills and something's got to change.

Some valid criticisms in the comments too, like how we ought to go to a open source standard without fees. But I don't see that on the horizon, and it isn't like Apple or Adobe or other heavy hitter is going to develop one. Kudos at least to both those companies for supporting HEIC. I just wish we could make more use of it, and I for one would like to see it in cameras even if I do shoot almost all raw.

It's another one of those Apple early adoptions that seems to be working...something I can smile about after I curse in my search for Black Friday deals on yet another USB-C adapter.

 

[r.harris1]

Thanks for watching Tony for us and distilling it down so we don't have to . I agree with this assessment, though I'd expect that most camera companies will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into doing something like that. Hopefully time will prove me wrong as I'd love to see it happen.

 

[jz0309]

I agree too, but it will take a looong time but am sure it will eventually happen. Similar USB adoption, only in the last 2-3 years you've seen all automobile mfr adopting it and a lot of hotel have USB outlets - USB A that is and we're moving on to USB C, another long transition ...

 

[robgendreau]

I saw somewhere else, and maybe he mentioned it too, but if camera companies went into online storage and other services (on their own or contracting) then suddenly they, like us, would have a big incentive to use better compression. I've seen some efforts like that before, but it never seems to go anywhere, usually because camera connectivity is so bad (another issue needing a fix).

 

[Ledgem]

Agree with r.harris1, thanks for distilling it for us. I generally don't watch opinion videos, or most videos; I'd rather skim an article. The Northrups seem to be wildly successful at getting their name mentioned in various photography circles by making outlandish claims and predictions, which makes me tend to stay away from their stuff. This may be one case where I'm glad that they have such brand penetration, and hopefully it leads to more awareness.

My workflow is also to purely shoot RAW and develop images, myself. However, my DAM, Capture One, doesn't support HEIC output. It supports all the JPEG variants (JPEG2000 and JPEG XR), but not the latest... so I export to TIFF and then convert to HEIC. It takes a lot more time (usually due to the write times for the TIFF files, which represents a few gigabytes of data at a time) but the file size savings are substantial, especially when added up over thousands, sometimes even hundreds, of images.

Another benefit of HEIC over JPEG is the ability to have 16-bit files. I haven't been able to test what this does to the file sizes because the converter I use to go from TIFF to HEIC is locked to 8-bit only. However, my cameras output 12-bit and 14-bit RAWs, and while 8-bit files usually aren't noticeable, I've had a few images where the RAW looked amazing and the 8-bit HEIC showed artifacts. It's most noticeable with subtle gradients. It's crazy to think that there's no way to share a 16-bit file with most people, or even websites; PNG is locked to 8 bits (although it seems there are some alternate formats that support 16-bit?), and JPEG2000 and JPEG XR, despite being out for years now, remain unsupported by most places I've tried. macOS can't even open JPEG XR files natively!

I'd love for camera companies to change the video codec from H.264 to H.265 (HEVC), though. The file size savings for video are enormous. I love the cinema-like output from my digital cameras, but I almost always reach for my iPhone to take video. The reason is purely because the compression codecs. For the same video (same frame rate and resolution), the file size is almost doubled with H.264 compared with H.265. It adds up very quickly.

 

[Ray2]

The camera industry embraces change. It just takes them decades to effect it.

While a technically noble advancement, I’d prefer seeing them work on improved jpeg renders than trying to save a bit or a byte in a world awash in cheap, fast storage.

Another reminder to never bother with Tony.

 

[cSalmon]

let's hope the industry embraces it but it's not camera companies that need to embrace it for a change - we need web browsers and the internet to accept the file format otherwise we are right back to dumbing down the file to jpg.

 

[HDFan]

The Northrups seem to be wildly successful at getting their name mentioned in various photography circles by making outlandish claims and predictions,

I've found him to be spot on most of the time. He's a technical guy coming from the Windows world, so I like that objective perspective. His "How to Create Stunning Digital Photography" is the #1 best selling Photography book on Amazon.us with a 4.8 star adjusted rating. All of his books are rated at least 4.5 stars.

 

[gkarris]

Though I agree with some of his stuff, Tony is a "Professional's Professional".

He caters to the Professional market (you can tell with his disdain for "kit lenses" - he's used to lenses $1,000+).

I'll never own an expensive lens nor have a nice camera (I have bought older refurbs or bought used budget models).

This new format he talked about I will probably see in an iPhone before I get an ILC that has it.

His whole thing about dSLR's and certain camera companies going away has some truth to it - if you are a Professional...

 

[Ledgem]

I've found him to be spot on most of the time.

I don't follow his stuff, but I follow two brand-centric fan websites that occasionally feature his videos when he says something pertinent about the brand. I think he's predicted the demise of one of my camera systems a few times already, and it's still going - as strong as can be, given the overall market decline. Then he did a review of a high-end camera that I own and use that seemed unfair, largely because it was painfully obvious that he wasn't familiar with many of the camera's operation or features.

That doesn't mean he can't provide useful information or predictions that come true. Yet from the angle I hear about his views and predictions, it seems more like he tries to say shocking things to stir up outrage which then has the effect of getting his name out there and getting more people to watch his stuff. (Case in point, this thread... and the fact that we're even having posts specifically about him.) If he's accurate, it seems to me more like "even a broken clock is right twice a day." I don't get the impression that there's a whole lot of depth there, either, but who knows - maybe he's a lot more thoughtful and goes deeper with other camera systems or other material that doesn't make it to the websites I hear about him from.

I admit that I did watch one of his videos - possibly the only one I watched from start to finish - about doing stock photography. I thought that was interesting.

 

[robgendreau]

The camera industry embraces change. It just takes them decades to effect it.

While a technically noble advancement, I’d prefer seeing them work on improved jpeg renders than trying to save a bit or a byte in a world awash in cheap, fast storage.

Another reminder to never bother with Tony.

"them"? you mean the camera manufacturers?

I don't think they can squeeze anything more out of JPEG (as you note, they probably haven't even figured out zip yet). Which is probably why Apple is now investing in HEVC and trying to make that a standard. It's not just about the compression but compression AND quality. And the HEICs coming out of my phone are superior to the JPEGs in terms of quality. If the phones' computers can't improve JPEG I really doubt a camera computer could. Or that they'd invest in doing so when easier to just adopt someone else's work. Northrup goes though a long list of folks at the end of the video who contributed to the JPEG standard, but I don't recall if any worked for camera companies except Canon.

Do you have any reason to think there's something else on the horizon?

 

[Ray2]

I do not know of anything on the horizon.

I’m afraid I don’t place much importance to any of this. If I look at an image, of all the variables that went into that image, the file type, to me, is about the least consequential determinant of whether I like the image or not.

 

[cSalmon]

Do you have any reason to think there's something else on the horizon?

AVIF? If everyone is afraid of HEVC and it's patient's cost then maybe it's best if Apple tried to get along with Google so we could actually move beyond jpgs (8bit only) as the standard ??

 

[Clix Pix]

IMHO Tony is just a wannabe "Internet Influencer" or whatever they're called, and that his primary objective is not to provide useful, accurate information about photography, gear and such, but rather to promote himself and his wife on their YT channel...... I don't waste my time with his videos and so-called "reviews," as if you ask me, he's just full of it.....

 

[v3rlon]

Though I agree with some of his stuff, Tony is a "Professional's Professional".

He caters to the Professional market (you can tell with his disdain for "kit lenses" - he's used to lenses $1,000+).

Tony is a "professional's professional --- at YouTube and click-bait. If I find I happen to agree with him on a point, it doesn't matter because, as a source, he isn't credible.

I watched a bunch of his videos a few years ago, but his information seems largely geared toward views, likes, and subscribes. He probably has a patreon page now. He uses expensive lenses for the same reason that car magazines review Lamborghinis that approximately NONE of their readers can afford.

I place him well below Jared Polin on the useful scale of things, and Fro Knows Photos annoys the daylights (and the speed lights, the continuous lights, and the reflectors) out of me. PLUS, he is in Philly and probably an Eagles fan.

 

[Clix Pix]

Click-bait to the max! IMHO Tony may want to appeal to the professional market, but I'd bet that most of his viewing audience are not at all in that ballpark, and many of whom aren't even what could be considered as "skilled / serious amateurs." Most of the real photographers know better.

I would say that in reality anyone who is genuinely a professional photographer actively engaged in his or her career isn't going to pay the least bit of attention to someone like Tony...... They'll read about new lenses or new camera bodies coming out and they'll read a few reviews from reputable sources, they'll get their hands on the items (sooner if they're connected with the brand's professional group anyway) and they'll make their own decisions about whether or not the camera body and/or the camera lens in question suits their needs and their shooting style and has the potential to help them bring in more money from their chosen profession of photography....

 

[maflynn]

IMHO Tony is just a wannabe "Internet Influencer"

Yeah, that's my thinking when I've watched some of his videos, this one of course is very click-baity.

 

[cSalmon]

This thread has become a bash on some Youtube reviewer when instead imho it should be about the changing of standards; from jpg to a compressed file that can handle 16bit. HEVC/HEIF/HEIC/AVIF/Jpg xr

In my opinion digital cameras didn't change the photography landscape it was the media that photos were presented on - before it was print now its browsers. Photo papers basically worked the same in most developers now we need companies to work together so one format can be handled across all the different platforms. And if Apple's format has too many licenses preventing that then yes they need to be flexible because we need a new standard

 

[steveash]

I think the Canon 1DX mkiii can shoot HEIF files so it’s likely to appear in more high end or sports cameras and then slowly trickle down. It is something that has been considered the logical progression for some time. The video headline is pure click bait.

 

[MacNut]

Honestly the majority of pictures on the web are posted to Instagram where nobody cares about how much compression there is.