Kodak Still Pushing For $1 Billion in Patent Royalties From Apple and RIM

[sarge]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

It isn't that they miscalculated the rise of digital, as miscalculations happen in business, it is the silly decision they made that resulted in the company divesting itself of businesses that had a future. The point is you can miscalculate a bit when it comes to how rapid you core tech will become useless but your planning should recognize that is going to happen and that you need to grow in a different direction. Instead Kodak shrunk itself down around a dying business.
.

Exactly, for those folks who think Kodak was just a film company you're totally off base. They had the diversity but not the vision to adjust to the transition and ended up wholesale auctioning their future. Kinda what we're doing as a country right now.

 

[BC2009]

Before all you Apple fannies disagree with this; just remember Apple is trying to sue everyone else too.

It's all ridiculous.

"Apple fannies" -- I like that.

Seriously, the amusing part of this is that patent trolls are usually companies who never produce anything based on those patents. Sadly, Kodak is a company that once produced decent stuff, but is now essentially acting like a patent troll because they don't really produce squat anymore. Considering that Kodak is busy liquidating entire manufacturing sites, it would be amazing if this company ever made comeback (even if they won $1B from Apple).

 

[AppleScruff1]

Remember back in the 90's when Apple was a dying company?

 

[BC2009]

Exactly, for those folks who think Kodak was just a film company you're totally off base. They had the diversity but not the vision to adjust to the transition and ended up wholesale auctioning their future. Kinda what we're doing as a country right now.

Kodak believed that their "customers" were the drug stores that did the film developing -- and those drug stores hated the idea of digital photography. So instead of focusing on the their real customers (i.e.: those who used their camera and film) they played to the whims of the drug stores and the entire digital revolution passed them by.

Funny though, one of the best cameras we ever had for producing decent photos was the one that used their magnetic film and showed you what the picture you just took looked like on a little LCD screen. If you did not like the picture you could mark it for "do not develop" and then take another. You saved money on developing bad photos this way and you were still using film (albeit a new kind of film). I can still remember the commercial for that camera with the young couple visiting in Italy trying to get different locals to take photos of them in a specific spot so they could make it look just like an old photo they had of one of their parents in the same spot from decades earlier. Each photo that turned out wrong was marked to not be developed and then they would try again until they got the perfect shot. Funny how they did not see that digital photography accomplished the same thing but in a better way. They really missed the boat.

 

[sarge]

Yes well photos were just a fraction of the business they did w/drug stores, considering they bought a big pharma concern. From the NYTimes:

By BARNABY J. FEDER
Published: January 25, 1988

Until the Eastman Kodak Company agreed Friday to spend $5.1 billion to acquire Sterling Drug Inc., it had been pursuing a diversification strategy that could best be described as busy but dainty.

The Rochester-based photography giant had in recent years extended its century-old roots into office products, batteries, computer equipment, specialty chemicals for businesses like artificial snow-making, nutrition, blood analysis equipment and pharmaceuticals research.

None of the steps have been big ones, however, for a company that earned nearly $1 billion on sales of $9.8 billion in the nine months that ended Sept. 30. The largest single acquisition had been the $175 million cash deal the company made in 1975 for Verbatim, a manufacturer of floppy disks and other computer equipment based in Silicon Valley in California.

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/25/business/kodak-s-diversification-plan-moves-into-a-higher-gear.html

 

[gorgeousninja]

What if I came along and stole all of Apples patents and used them in a way that were above and beyond anything Apple created with them?

You're thought process of this situation is completely horrible.

What are the chances of you creating anything 'exceedingly awesome'?
Slim, or none?

 

[old-wiz]

Typical of a company that has no business model right now; become a patent troll. Kind of a shame, Kodak used to be a great company, but they got left behind by the digital revolution.

 

[Thunderhawks]

Not only that - but the fact that there is no film in a digital camera - Kodak is a "film emulsion" company. Professionals never bought Kodak cameras or lenses. There is no "film" in a digital camera. The most natural progression would have been for Kodak to make memory cards.

Most of the R&D (and they did some great R&D in chemistry, materials and human image perception) were fundementally irrelevant to digital.

The changes that Kodak would have needed to be relevant were so huge (fire 90% of staff, change the entire core business) that I don't think there was any way they could have been succesful.

The successful camera companies today fall into one of two camps: 1. well established camera companies. 2. Consumer electronics companies.

Afga (a film emulsion company): effectively dead.

Fuji: very limited success (though they almost had their head above water for a while).

Fuji is a very good tasting Apple. Hope they don't taste this good because they have emulsion in it

Didn't they join with tsu? and now make Fuji tsu scanners etc.

 

[rmwebs]

Kodak, just admit that you royally screwed up and missed the boat when the world went digital, don't try to suck money from the winners by suing them. Why not get the money from customers instead by making products that people actually want to buy.

They have every right to sue if Apple violated their patent. They invented the technology and decided to protect it, period.

You'd be royally pissed if Microsoft came out with the mPhone which looked and felt exactly like an iPhone...parents exist for a very good reason.

The fact that kodak is a dying company is neither here nor there and has no place in this thread.

 

[Bubba Satori]

Darn greedy company.

Don't talk about iApple that way.

 

[wizard]

They have every right to sue if Apple violated their patent. They invented the technology and decided to protect it, period.

If Apple indeed violated the patent that is true, if the patent itself is valid under the law.

You'd be royally pissed if Microsoft came out with the mPhone which looked and felt exactly like an iPhone...parents exist for a very good reason.

1. When was the last time that Kodak came out with anything remotely similar to an Apple product?

The fact that kodak is a dying company is neither here nor there and has no place in this thread.

This is where you are absolutely wrong. The fact that Kodak is a dying company plays a big part in this because it looks like they are trying to drum up income by enforcing questionable patents. Further it leaves people with the thought that Kodak has given up on being a positive innovator and a company that contributes to both the local and the national economies. Frankly I have a serious question in my mind if Kodak could do anything remotely positive with the money if they did win.

 

[HyperZboy]

While reading these pages, what amazes me is that many people keep calling KODAK a patent troll.

YET KODAK STILL MAKES DIGITAL CAMERAS AND PRINTERS BASED ON THESE PATENTS!

2 other companies have already settled on similar lawsuits.

Earth to MacRumors members... APPLE WILL LOSE TOO MOST LIKELY.

That's why I say Apple should just buy KODAK up and get all the royalties for all those patents that so many other companies are already paying or lost lawsuits regarding.

Seems like a no-brainer to me. Apple has the cash, that's for sure. If you're gonna pay it out anyway, why not get something you didn't have in return?

 

[cmaier]

In related news, Nokia has a problem:

http://www.macstories.net/news/appl...utm_campaign=Feed:+macstoriesnet+(MacStories)

 

[cmaier]

While reading these pages, what amazes me is that many people keep calling KODAK a patent troll.

YET KODAK STILL MAKES DIGITAL CAMERAS AND PRINTERS BASED ON THESE PATENTS!

really? which printer or camera uses it? It should be marked with the patent number if it does.

Earth to MacRumors members... APPLE WILL LOSE TOO MOST LIKELY.

Doubtful. A judge already said they don't infringe.

 

[scottishwildcat]

I dunno what Kodak does with all the patent settlements they win... they won a fortune off Sun Microsystems a decade or so back, too. I wouldn't say they're dying, though, their focus has just moved to document imaging workflow systems and other such exciting things.

 

[nylonsteel]

Random thoughts
1) only the lawyers will win
2) Kodak wanting a bite out of aapl cash - what is it now at - 50 something billion

 

[liavman]

Federal Agency Will Review a Kodak Patent Claim.

A federal agency has decided to review Eastman Kodak’s patent claim against Apple and Research In Motion. The International Trade Commission said Friday it would look at a judge’s finding in January that Apple’s iPhone and RIM’s BlackBerry do not violate a 2001 Kodak image-preview patent. The favorable decision revives Kodak’s hopes of negotiating royalties worth $1 billion or more. The agency’s six commissioners will decide by May 23 whether to alter the initial determination by its chief administrative judge or let it stand.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/business/26bizbriefs-FEDERALAGENC_BRF.html?partner=yahoofinance

 

[liavman]

Here is some interesting data...

Kodak has 1.62B in cash and 1.24B in debt for a net spoils of 380 million

Gross Profit per year is 1.95Billion with an EBITDA of 732 Million. The accounting reported earnings are negative, so it is all about some charges, not real money going forward.

Kodak's current market cap is 914.20. It went up 20% after this news, so it is currently 1.1 Billion.

If Apple is really interested in Kodak's intellectual property, it seems to be cheaper to buy the company out right than licensing the intellectual property.

Apple should simply buy them out paying the shareholders 50% premium for around 1.7 Billion cash and be done with it. Keep the intellectual property portfolio, collect some yearly money from Samsung and others which Kodak has already won. May be even from RIM if the ruling will be in Kodak's favor. But that is not a gating factor for the decision. The major issue to resolve is what to do with their current 18000 employees!! That is like 1.5 B to 2 B a year in expense. May be Apple will have use for 1000 of those people at best. Apple will have to spin off any manufacturing and sales of what Kodak currently does today into a separate company while keeping the intellectual property.

Having said all this, something does not look right. Why are the earnings negative for a company with a revenue of 7 Billion, Gross profit of 2 Billion and EBITDA of of 3/4th of a billion, and why is the market cap so low for such a company. I know its future is bleak which begs the question. Why is it still even in business. If its future strategy is going to be just a patent holding company and not any useful economic activity out of those 18000 people, Apple can do a much better job of being that patent holding company.

 

[HyperZboy]

really? which printer or camera uses it? It should be marked with the patent number if it does.



Doubtful. A judge already said they don't infringe.

First off Kodak doesn't even have to use its patents necessarily to sue, but clearly they have over the years since they've been making digital cameras and printers for quite some time. If you want to check each an every Kodak product for patent numbers, knock yourself out!

As for your second point, see the Macrumors UPDATE.
That initial ruling is being re-examined.

I still think Apple should just buy Kodak and start collecting the royalties from the other companies that have already made deals with Kodak, but it looks Apple's legal strategy is to drag this out until Kodak goes under.

 

[mdesbiens]

Instead of suing everyone, kodak needs to get on this retro kick and start selling kodachrome camera's and film again for cheap. Stop using digital, start developing.

Did Kodak stop making film? Doesn't the niche film market already buy Kodak film.... and get cool cameras from Goodwill?

That doesn't seem to be helping EK. I think they might need to innovate their way out of their slump. Suing, right or wrong (I don't pretend to understand), will not keep them afloat forever... especially when their patents expire.

Speaking of that... let's see:
a 20 yr patent granted in 1996, probably filed in 1995

a lawsuit in 2011 that might take a bit of time if it isn't settled

More lawsuits to come if they are successful.

...Kodak seems to be cutting this a little close.

 

[KnightWRX]

Doubtful. A judge already said they don't infringe.

Read the news much lately ?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...-1-billion-patent-case-against-apple-rim.html

The ITC has decided to review that judge's ruling. It's still on.

 

[cmaier]

First off Kodak doesn't even have to use its patents necessarily to sue, but clearly they have over the years since they've been making digital cameras and printers for quite some time. If you want to check each an every Kodak product for patent numbers, knock yourself out!

If someone says they use the patents, the burden is on them to prove it, not on me to disprove it.

And if they DO use the patents but they do not mark the patent number on them, they can't sue for past damages. If they do NOT use the patents, it shows the patents are not worth much because they are easy to avoid, and hence reasonable royalty damages will be very low, if not $0.

Read the news much lately ?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...-1-billion-patent-case-against-apple-rim.html

The ITC has decided to review that judge's ruling. It's still on.

Yes - all they've decided to do is REVIEW it. They've overturned nothing. And the overturn rates are very low.

 

[kuebby]

Typical of a company that has no business model right now; become a patent troll. Kind of a shame, Kodak used to be a great company, but they got left behind by the digital revolution.

Exactly what I was going to say. It's sad that trolling has entered real-life now, it was bad enough when it was just an online behavior propagated by children.

 

[KnightWRX]

Yes - all they've decided to do is REVIEW it. They've overturned nothing. And the overturn rates are very low.

It's still on, no matter what you try to spin it as. A review is a review. This is the same as when an appeals court decides to hear a case, they haven't overturned anything until they've overturned something. But they can't overturn something without first REVIEWing it.

 

[louis Fashion]

Kodak Bear

Typical of a company that has no business model right now; become a patent troll. Kind of a shame, Kodak used to be a great company, but they got left behind by the digital revolution.

Hey if they win this one, they will make 1B this year!!!