LA Cops fatally shoot car chase suspect on TV

[G4scott]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...ficerskillsuspectasviewerswatchontv&printer=1

Although it's sad that it had to come to this kind of ending, I have to side with the police on this one. If this guy endangers their lives, as well as the lives of others, they were justified in using lethal force.

What's worse, is that this guy's family is probably going to sue the police department for wrongful death, and some good officers may lose their jobs. What good are police for these days if they can't do what's necessary to serve and protect?

 

[krimson]

Considering where the police officers were when they shot at the car, i'd say they weren't in immediate danger, although I wasn't actually there in the "heat of battle".

 

[Stelliform]

"Why did they have to shoot him so many times?" asked Emma Jean Killinger, the man's aunt. Killinger lived with her family in Malibu for the last three or four months, she said.

I do believe that most police departments only allow shoot to kill firing of weapons. I know the local departments have that policy. Sad that it was aired on TV though

 

[G4scott]

Either way, you don't mess with cops like that. You know that you might get shot if you do something stupid. It doesn't take that much brains to figure that out.

 

[Sun Baked]

The vehicle is a lethal weapon... if the vehicle was in reverse, then the cops standing behind the vehicle would most likely shoot.

 

[Frohickey]

Actually, its not shoot-to-kill.

Its shoot-to-stop-the-attack. Unfortunately, we do not have Star Trek™ technology type-2 phasers set on stun, so the next best thing to stop an attack is via blood loss, or CNS shutdown. That is the reality.

As to whether or not the shooting was justified, I was not there. But, I side with the cops on this one.

A few things to remember, a typical 9mm bullet has 396 ft-lbs of energy (115grains or 1/4 of an ounce, going at 1245feetpersecond or 850milesperhour). This can definitely kill.

A Ford Tempo weighs 2500lbs, and can go backwards up to 25MPH, or more, lets say a typical 10MPH. A Ford Tempo has 7616 ft-lbs of energy, thats 20times the energy!!!

 

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
The vehicle is a lethal weapon... if the vehicle was in reverse, then the cops standing behind the vehicle would most likely shoot.

Yep. Did you know that in a given year, more people get killed with vehicles than they do with guns?

One thing that I remembered working with cops when the conversation goes to seeing a perp on the street with a gun and the cops are in their squad cars. The cop not driving usually wants to have the car stop so he/she can draw their pistol on the perp. The cop that is driving always wants to step on the gas and drive at the perp.

 

[mactastic]

Everybody complains when Janet's boob shows up on the TV, yet there is silence from those same people when someone is killed on live TV. Yeah the news crews didn't know what was going to happen, but neither did the camera people at the Super Bowl. Seems like everyone's getting worked up about the cops being right or wrong, what about the media? Should chases be shown live? And why is it ok for a kid to see a live death and not a live boob?

As far as I can tell, the cops are well within their rights to shoot this guy. If you threaten a cop, you should count on getting shot. The media's sick obsession with ratings is another matter however. A cop chase isn't news, and it's certainly not worth breaking into another broadcast for. Instead of being outraged by the actions of the perp or the cops, be outraged at the media.

 

[vwcruisn]

This all happened right in front of my house.. i was awaken by the gun shots and jumped out of bed... hearing nothing but sirens and the drone of about 15 helicopters above my head. I immedietely ran outside and saw the guy laying on the asphalt. This was before the cops had a chance to put up police tape and what not, I was standing maybe 20 feet away from the guy. There were cops just standing around as the guy lay there dying. One was drinking a coffee. About FIFTEEN minutes later, the first ambulace was on scene.

One of my neighbors actually witnessed the whole thing. He basically stated the same thing you can see if you watch the video from the helicopters. The driver did NOT ram the police officers, he accidently pulled into a driveway, mistaking it for a street, and began to back up SLOWLY. Just as soon as his reverse lights came on, BEFORE he even stated moving, 3 cops opened fire. MANY MANY rounds were fired (I heard most of them). The only reason the suspects car actually BUMPED the police car, was because he had been shot so many times, he opened the door to try to get out, but slumped and hit the asphalt, as the cops CONTINUED shooting him. His car then rolled into a cop car. There was no RAMMING and the cops lives were never at stake. Just another example of the cops making an excuse for their carelessness.

Oh, and btw, this was an armed robbery suspect who had robbed a gas station for 180 dollars with a KNIFE. The cops knew this, they knew he did not have a gun.

Also, according to the LAPD website, they stated "At least one shot was fired at the car just it collided at slow speed with a patrol car." link

AFTER the car collided with a patrol car? Anyone who watches the video knows this is not true. Why do they lie? Especially when theres 10 videos fromt the different news channels. This was murder on behalf of the police. The guy was just a 23 year old kid. Sad.


On a side note, the guy pulled into the driveway of santa monica high school. So the cops were firing directly into the school. Although it was 6am, probably most students were not on campus... but who knows... seems pretty risky to me, especially when it wasnt necessary in the first place.

 

[mactastic]

The cops couldn't know he didn't have a gun. He could have had a knife AND a gun for all they knew. And if you try to evade arrest you are likely to wind up shot. That has to figure into your thinking when you run from the cops. It sucks that he was young like that, but even young thugs can be murderously dangerous.

 

[vwcruisn]

sure if he had a gun (although i think if he did, he woulda used it to rob the gas station), and pointed it at the cops, I would agree. You have no choice but to bring him down. But all we was trying to do was get away, based on my neighbor who saw the whole thing, and all the videos I saw on tv, he had no intentions of "ramming" police. There is definetely a time when guns must be used by the police, this was not one of them.

 

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by mactastic
As far as I can tell, the cops are well within their rights to shoot this guy. If you threaten a cop, you should count on getting shot. The media's sick obsession with ratings is another matter however. A cop chase isn't news, and it's certainly not worth breaking into another broadcast for. Instead of being outraged by the actions of the perp or the cops, be outraged at the media.

Janet's live boob was a staged planned event.
Cops shooting a perp backing a car at them is not a staged planned event.

Outrage at the media, maybe, but you do not need to be outraged. Media, has competitors, and you can chose to not support their business by maybe writing a small note to their advertisers. Nice to live in a competitve capitalist society? There is always an alternative available.

 

[mactastic]

Originally posted by Frohickey
Janet's live boob was a staged planned event.
Cops shooting a perp backing a car at them is not a staged planned event.

Outrage at the media, maybe, but you do not need to be outraged. Media, has competitors, and you can chose to not support their business by maybe writing a small note to their advertisers. Nice to live in a competitve capitalist society? There is always an alternative available.

How do you know this wasn't a staged, planned event otherwise known as suicide by cop? My point was that the MEDIA didn't know Janet's boob would be shown, just as they didn't know this guy would get killed.

 

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by vwcruisn
sure if he had a gun (although i think if he did, he woulda used it to rob the gas station), and pointed it at the cops, I would agree. You have no choice but to bring him down. But all we was trying to do was get away, based on my neighbor who saw the whole thing, and all the videos I saw on tv, he had no intentions of "ramming" police. There is definetely a time when guns must be used by the police, this was not one of them.

Not really. There are special enhancement sentencing guidelines when a perp commits a crime with a gun, could be that the perp used a knife in case he was caught, they can't use it against him. But he could have a gun in the car. I would not want to second guess the cops on this one. I was not there.

I contend that its good that the cops got him. Maybe the next robber would drop the weapon, and give up peaceably as soon as sirens are heard. I used to remember stories told by old cops about when they were out on the beat, that when they came upon a perp, the perp would give up right away, and they would chat about the baseball game on the way to the station for booking. We have a more violent-type of criminal out there now. Police need to become more violent in order to cope. But this is still a bandaid to the problem of crime.

What we need is more violent-type of victim. A victim that fights off their attackers and stops the attack and makes the criminal run away.

 

[jxyama]

Originally posted by vwcruisn
sure if he had a gun (although i think if he did, he woulda used it to rob the gas station), and pointed it at the cops, I would agree. You have no choice but to bring him down. But all we was trying to do was get away, based on my neighbor who saw the whole thing, and all the videos I saw on tv, he had no intentions of "ramming" police. There is definetely a time when guns must be used by the police, this was not one of them.

if you are the criminal, the burden falls on you to prove your harmlessness. i do not know if the shooting was justified in this case or not, but you cannot expect the law enforcement to take actions based on what they *think* they know. they act assuming the worst - otherwise, it could be them in the coffin.

speculating on possible intentions after the fact is useless.

i don't condone excessive use of force - but to examine this type of event under after the fact analysis of possible intentions is not fair to law enforcement officers.

sure if he had a gun (although i think if he did, he woulda used it to rob the gas station)

in the same light, if he had wanted to not get into further trouble, he would have stopped the car sooner.

 

[vwcruisn]

ok but did he point his non exsistant gun at the officers? I wasn't aware of it if he did. All I am saying is, they are using the excuse "he MIGHT have been armed" and "he rammed our police car." The second one is a lie, the 1st is no reason to shoot someone, unless of course, he pointed a weapon at them first. If suspecting someone has a weapon is a reason to kill someone, whats to say they wont suspect you of a weapon when youre walking down the street and shoot you?

 

[agreenster]

Hey, all arguments aside--when you go and rob a store, you take your life in your own hands.

Sorry, but if you dont rob a store and run from the police, you wont get shot to death. Period. When someone is already demonstrating radical behavior with the potential to inflict harm, police not only have the right, but are required to act with deadly force.

 

[vwcruisn]

Originally posted by agreenster
Hey, all arguments aside--when you go and rob a store, you take your life in your own hands.

Sorry, but if you dont rob a store and run from the police, you wont get shot to death. Period. When someone is already demonstrating radical behavior with the potential to inflict harm, police not only have the right, but are required to act with deadly force.

so you are stating that anyone that runs from the police deserves to die? Wow thats pretty scary stuff, I'm glad you arent a police officer.

 

[agreenster]

Originally posted by agreenster
When someone is already demonstrating radical behavior with the potential to inflict harm

Quoting myself for emphasis.

It isnt the first time someone has been killed in a robbery attempt, police or perp. (do a search on LaTimes, and you'll find more than a handful) Robbery is a SERIOUS offense, and if the police are threatened, in any way, there is a likelihood of a fatality.

Someone who commits robbery doesnt deserve to die, but someone who commits robbery and then runs from the police is just askin' for it. Police know that when perps stop the car and throw it into reverse, bad things happen.

 

[mactastic]

Originally posted by vwcruisn
so you are stating that anyone that runs from the police deserves to die? Wow thats pretty scary stuff, I'm glad you arent a police officer.

I wouldn't say deserves to die, but you have to know the odds of death increase dramatically when you rob a store and then run from the cops.

If someone pulled a knife on me, the very least that would happen is that they would never use that arm again.

 

[vwcruisn]

Originally posted by mactastic
If someone pulled a knife on me, the very least that would happen is that they would never use that arm again.

I agree completely, I would do the same, and expect anyone, including the police to do the same. I respect the police and my best friend is a police officer with LAPD and I hear lots of stories. I know they have a tough job, and should get paid a lot more than they do for risking their lives everyday. All I am saying is that I feel these officers acted too quickly in this case. Sure if the guy was going to ram them, I agree they needed to shoot, but unless you have seen the video, or like my neighbor, witnessed it, please don't base your decisions based on what an LAPD spokesman said. Of course they are going to cover their asses.

I'm sure if you interviewed the driver of the car (not that you can now of course), you'd have a whole different perspective.

 

[krimson]

Originally posted by Frohickey
Actually, its not shoot-to-kill.

Its shoot-to-stop-the-attack. Unfortunately, we do not have Star Trek™ technology type-2 phasers set on stun, so the next best thing to stop an attack is via blood loss, or CNS shutdown. That is the reality.

As to whether or not the shooting was justified, I was not there. But, I side with the cops on this one.

A few things to remember, a typical 9mm bullet has 396 ft-lbs of energy (115grains or 1/4 of an ounce, going at 1245feetpersecond or 850milesperhour). This can definitely kill.

A Ford Tempo weighs 2500lbs, and can go backwards up to 25MPH, or more, lets say a typical 10MPH. A Ford Tempo has 7616 ft-lbs of energy, thats 20times the energy!!!

How much energy from a Tempo moving 10mph can 3 Crown Vic's absorb before they would even move?

 

[agreenster]

Originally posted by vwcruisn
but unless you have seen the video, or like my neighbor, witnessed it, please don't base your decisions based on what an LAPD spokesman said

I'm sure if you interviewed the driver of the car (not that you can now of course), you'd have a whole different perspective.

Okay, I think what you are failing to understand here is: We dont care.

Dont care of he meant to run the cops over or not, fact is he robbed a store at knifepoint and ran off and started a carchase. If he didnt MEAN to hurt anyone, he sure had a strange way of showing it.

Doesnt matter what your intentions are in a case like this. If it appears as tho' you are going to inflict harm, you're askin for it. He shoulda stopped LONG before he pulled into that driveway, then none of this would have happened.

 

[vwcruisn]

Originally posted by agreenster
Okay, I think what you are failing to understand here is: We dont care.

Dont care of he meant to run the cops over or not, fact is he robbed a store at knifepoint and ran off and started a carchase. If he didnt MEAN to hurt anyone, he sure had a strange way of showing it.

Doesnt matter what your intentions are in a case like this. If it appears as tho' you are going to inflict harm, you're askin for it. He shoulda stopped LONG before he pulled into that driveway, then none of this would have happened.

and what you are failing to understand is that HE DID NOT inflict harm on anyone, even if he had killed the gas station attendent, that doesn't give anyone the right to implement instant justice. That is what the justice system is set up for. Running from the cops is stupid, and will be punished, but Ive never heard of anyone getting the death penalty for simply running from the cops. The cops in this case didnt have the right to take his life either.

What you are failing to understand, is that every case is different, and many times, yes I side with the cops. This case is different, and you obviously are not familiar with it. I will not waste anymore time trying to point out your ignorance, while you sit here and basically state that every case is the same: when you run from the cops, youre "askin for it."

 

[mactastic]

If you don't want to get shot, DO WHAT THE COPS TELL YOU! Sort it out later. If you have a legitimate reason that they should be leaving you alone, stay alive long enough to get to the station and explain. But when a cop tells you to stop, and get out of your car, you better do it!