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LA Cops fatally shoot car chase suspect on TV

Originally posted by mactastic
If you don't want to get shot, DO WHAT THE COPS TELL YOU! Sort it out later. If you have a legitimate reason that they should be leaving you alone, stay alive long enough to get to the station and explain. But when a cop tells you to stop, and get out of your car, you better do it!
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I agree completely. Ive been pulled over many times in my life and never did it occur to me to run. What you guys are failing to see, is that I am not encouraging running from the cops, I am not saying it is ok to run from the cops, and I am not saying these people should be let free. All I am trying to say is that IN THIS CASE IT WAS NOT NECESSARY TO SHOOT 15 ROUNDS INTO THIS GUY. Why can't you people understand this, instead of taking everything I say and turning it into an argument. Sheesh.

What you are all basically saying is that all cases are the same. You have to understand that all cases are different. Every case that involves running from the police is not the same. Do you at least agree with me in this aspect? (i.e. A carload of thugs shoting guns out the window at the cops while being chased, vs. an unarmed little old man running from the cops because he has expired plates, is poor, and knows he cannot afford the fine and panics). Yes these are extreme cases.
 
Look, setting aside the issue of whether this particular shooting was justified or not, running from the cops is not a good way to assure that you arrive home safely that night. Let's let the internal investigation determine whether the cops on the scene were justified in shooting the guy. I'll withhold judgement on that until I see more evidence one way or the other. I would suggest that you do that same.

But if you rob a store, don't be surprised if you wind up shot, either by the store owner, a random armed citizen, or the cops. Justified or not, mistake or not, that's dangerous work. OSHA don't have any guidelines for protecting the workplace of thieves.
 
Originally posted by agreenster
Someone who commits robbery doesnt deserve to die, but someone who commits robbery and then runs from the police is just askin' for it. Police know that when perps stop the car and throw it into reverse, bad things happen.
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Robbery in California is the felonious taking of personal property in the possession of another, from his person or immediate presence, and against his will, accomplished by means of force or fear.

The fear in PC code 211 is The fear of an unlawful injury to the person or property of the person robbed, or of any relative of his or member of his family;
or The fear of an immediate and unlawful injury to the person or property of anyone in the company of the person robbed at the time of the robbery.

Justifiable homicide (killing) is defined for non police officers to be 197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or, ...

So, robbery is a felony. If the victim resists the commission of a felony (robbery), and kills the robber, I think the robber deserved that one.
 
Yes, running from the cops is not good or safe. We have established that. Definetely not a good idea.

But who's going to do the investigation? Are the police going to be investigating themselves? If I was investigating myself, I would not find myself guilty.. but hey thats just me.
 
Originally posted by Frohickey
Robbery in California is the felonious taking of personal property in the possession of another, from his person or immediate presence, and against his will, accomplished by means of force or fear.

The fear in PC code 211 is The fear of an unlawful injury to the person or property of the person robbed, or of any relative of his or member of his family;
or The fear of an immediate and unlawful injury to the person or property of anyone in the company of the person robbed at the time of the robbery.

Justifiable homicide (killing) is defined for non police officers to be 197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or, ...

So, robbery is a felony. If the victim resists the commission of a felony (robbery), and kills the robber, I think the robber deserved that one.
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ok.. but thats not what happened.
 
Originally posted by vwcruisn
This all happened right in front of my house.. i was awaken by the gun shots and jumped out of bed... hearing nothing but sirens and the drone of about 15 helicopters above my head. I immedietely ran outside and saw the guy laying on the asphalt. This was before the cops had a chance to put up police tape and what not, I was standing maybe 20 feet away from the guy. There were cops just standing around as the guy lay there dying. One was drinking a coffee. About FIFTEEN minutes later, the first ambulace was on scene.

One of my neighbors actually witnessed the whole thing. He basically stated the same thing you can see if you watch the video from the helicopters. The driver did NOT ram the police officers, he accidently pulled into a driveway, mistaking it for a street, and began to back up SLOWLY. Just as soon as his reverse lights came on, BEFORE he even stated moving, 3 cops opened fire. MANY MANY rounds were fired (I heard most of them). The only reason the suspects car actually BUMPED the police car, was because he had been shot so many times, he opened the door to try to get out, but slumped and hit the asphalt, as the cops CONTINUED shooting him. His car then rolled into a cop car. There was no RAMMING and the cops lives were never at stake. Just another example of the cops making an excuse for their carelessness.

Oh, and btw, this was an armed robbery suspect who had robbed a gas station for 180 dollars with a KNIFE. The cops knew this, they knew he did not have a gun.

Also, according to the LAPD website, they stated "At least one shot was fired at the car just it collided at slow speed with a patrol car." link

AFTER the car collided with a patrol car? Anyone who watches the video knows this is not true. Why do they lie? Especially when theres 10 videos fromt the different news channels. This was murder on behalf of the police. The guy was just a 23 year old kid. Sad. :(


On a side note, the guy pulled into the driveway of santa monica high school. So the cops were firing directly into the school. Although it was 6am, probably most students were not on campus... but who knows... seems pretty risky to me, especially when it wasnt necessary in the first place.
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Forgive me, but the law is that if you see lights and sirens of police or rescue vehicles, YOU PULL OVER!

Even though he robbed with a knife, he could have had a gun.

All I can say there is one less person that will be robbing innocent people....
 
Originally posted by vwcruisn
Yes, running from the cops is not good or safe. We have established that. Definetely not a good idea.

But who's going to do the investigation? Are the police going to be investigating themselves? If I was investigating myself, I would not find myself guilty.. but hey thats just me.
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Fortunately the LA Police are under stricter review, and what ever the out come; you can be assured that it will be proper.

I am as liberal as they come. But I am tired of people defending the actions of criminals that wreck havoc on our streets.

This guy had a choice. He was cornered. HE chose to backup towards the officers. HE MAY have started out slowly, but he could have sped up. And if he had and injured or killed police officers in the process, what would you be saying?

Personally as the son of a former law enforcement officer, I would be happier to see those officers to go home to their loved ones, then have the risk to their lives from someone that obviously did not care about anyone but himself.

Keep in mind those officers will have to live with their choice regardless what the department or the courts say.

it seems that you are siding with this perp. Have you ever talked with an officer involved in a deadly shooting? Justified or not, it is something they have to live with for the rest of their lives.

I will tell you that they have greater issues with their actions then many of the perps that kill innocent people to suit their own needs.
 
Here in the Phoenix Metro area a kid was killed while holding a knife, he started towards the officers and refused to drop the knife.

It caused a community outrage -- because they didn't use non-deadly force. And that the kid was nowhere near endagering the officers, yet.

This was not the first time the officers had been called to this kids house to disarm him.

Because of this kid, tasers were put in the hands on most all the police officers.

A couple days ago a man holding a baseball bat was shot dead. After he refuse to drop the bat he was hit with the taser.

Since the taser didn't work, it allowed the guy to get close enough to put the officer in the hospital.

---

Sure knives, bats, and cars aren't dangerous at a distance -- but that distance can change real quick.
 
Originally posted by Sun Baked
Here in the Phoenix Metro area a kid was killed while holding a knife, he started towards the officers and refused to drop the knife.

It caused a community outrage -- because they didn't use non-deadly force. And that the kid was nowhere near endagering the officers, yet.

This was not the first time the officers had been called to this kids house to disarm him.

...

Sure knives, bats, and cars aren't dangerous at a distance -- but that distance can change real quick.
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When does one become responsible for their actions?
 
Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
When does one become responsible for their actions?
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Seems the kid was found responsible during the investigation for his own death, he was agitated and moved on the officers while brandishing a deadly weapon.

While he may have been a teenager, he was still a threat when there was no other alternative available at the scene.

Hold a knife and act like a raving lunatic, make threats to people lives (basically his own), refuse to drop the knife then make a move on officers.

Your either dead, or in the ICU.

---

The city/county found that this may have been an avoidable death if non-deadly force was available at the scence. So they increased the number of tasers in the field.

This backfired and place a cop in the hospital.
 
Originally posted by vwcruisn
ok.. but thats not what happened.
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Just showing what the current laws are in California. The post was in reference to 'Robbers deserve to die'. Yes. I think that robbers deserve to die, same with rapists, murderers, child molesters, and probably a few others. Like scum, they steal oxygen. ;)
 
Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
When does one become responsible for their actions?
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What is your comfort level of a young fit man holding a knife threatening you?
100 yards?
50 yards?
25 yards?
10 yards?
5 yards?
1 yard?
 
Originally posted by Frohickey
What is your comfort level of a young fit man holding a knife threatening you?
100 yards?
50 yards?
25 yards?
10 yards?
5 yards?
1 yard?
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Not sure, I guess that would depend on the person. I know if someone was running at me with a knife, Id take them down well before they were close enough to use it (then again Ive never owned a gun, or fired one for that matter, nor do I plan on it).

Actually, back in high school, a bunch of punks surrounded me in a parking lot and attempted to take my money while one brandished a knife (it was a small pocket knife but a knife non the less). I stalled them and when when I had opportunity, I turned and pushed a couple of the guys behind me out of the way and ran. Anyway, don't know the point of this story.. but that was deinetely out of my comfort zone :D
 
Originally posted by vwcruisn
Not sure, I guess that would depend on the person. I know if someone was running at me with a knife, Id take them down well before they were close enough to use it (then again Ive never owned a gun, or fired one for that matter, nor do I plan on it).
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What is your definition of close enough to use it? The reason I bring this up is that the distance you think "close enough to use it" is not as short as you think it is.
 
well i wouldnt sit there and map out a mathematical equation if thats what youre getting at.... and i couldnt just state a distance such as 20 feet.. im not sure how you want me to answer the question... i suppose it would be different for everybody and in every case... whats it matter really
 
Originally posted by mactastic
5 yards
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Won't give you much time to react with deadly force if you want to use try a taser first.

If you had back-up protecting you maybe, but you don't really have much time to react at 15 feet.

If somebody is walking towards you slowly and refusing to halt or drop the weapon, at 15 feet they are in the zone where they can kill you.

They can easily run or lunge at you.

---

If a car is moving toward you, where is the comfort zone?

All they have to do is mash the pedal and you're an instant hood ornament at 10-20 feet.
 
Originally posted by mactastic
5 yards
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Police Survival Shooting: How Close is Too Close?
The first half of the tape is devoted to the "Tueller Drill." The "Tueller drill" is named for Sgt. Dennis Tueller, Salt Lake City Police, who also appears in this video. In 1983, he published the article "How Close Is Too Close" in SWAT magazine (Survival Weapons and Tactics). In this article, he discussed the results of a series of tests he had run. His tests showed that, with people of various ages, weights, and heights, they could on average close a distance of 21 feet in about 1.5 seconds. That time -- 1.5 seconds -- happened to be the "drill time" taught by Jeff Cooper at GunSite for drawing a handgun and firing two aimed shots. Knowing that people who have been shot do not always -- or perhaps even often -- fall down instantly, or otherwise stop dead in their tracks, Tueller concluded that a person armed with a knife or club at the so called "intermediate range" of 21 feet was a potentially lethal threat. The "Tueller drill" is now a standard part of all of Ayoob's LFI classes.
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Personally, I think 5 yards is too close.
 
I'm not going to be using a gun, so I'm ok with it being a little closer.;)

But if I do happen to have 1.5 seconds I can have a knife handy.
 
vwcruisn

I understand where you are coming from. You feel sorry for this dude because it wansnt blatantly obvious that he was willing to inflict harm on the police officers. Chances are, in fact, that he probably would have eventually stopped the car and surrendered.

But the sad truth is, in cases of high tension, especially in the city of LA, where shootings and killings happen way too often, police have to be extra cautious to not become a statistic. Should these cops have opened fire on this guy? In hindsight, probably no. But hindsight is 20/20, and I hate to say it but they probably did the right thing at the time given the circumstances.

I think what everyone is trying to say though (myself included) is that had this guy obeyed the law, not committed a felony, and not behaved in the exact same manner as someone willing to kill police or pedestrians to get away (as we've seen time and again in LA), then he probably would not have been killed.

Did he deserve to die? Hell no. It was obvious that he didnt intend harm. But he behaved as if he would, and at a moment when the police werent sure of his actions, they erred on the side of safety for their fellow officers.

I'm sorry, but this young man will get little sympathy from most of the people aware of the situation, right or wrong. I guess people nowadays have very little patience for criminals committing criminal acts.

And one more thing:

Think about this, what if he would have killed someone while speeding away from the place he robbed? Would the police have been more justified in killing him then? He could have easily done that, and was just lucky that no one crossed his path. This is no different than walking into a crowded mall with a shotgun and opening fire. So if you're a bad aim, do you still get taken out by police?

I know it isnt a perfect analogy, but you get the idea.

Anyway vwcruisn, I just felt like you were getting upset, and wanted you to know that I think we DO see where you are coming from, but when it comes down to it, the vast majority of people would have rather seen this ending than one where cops or pedestrians get killed. It IS unfortunate that this man lost his life. That can never be changed.
 
Crazy, I mean listen to you people... Robbers deserve to die, lethal force is all right cause he robbed someone and ran from the police, he could have had a gun...
I think they should stop someone like this, yes, but to shoot 11 or more rounds into that guy. I've seen pursuits where they KNEW that the guy had a gun end better than this. And what is it with someone deserving to die when they are running from the police? Are we in some kind militant dictatorship here? I don't think the police should act any less forceful when dealing with bank robbers, like the ones in North Hollywood a couple of years ago, but in a situation like this, use your brain here as a cop. I know they have a tough job and are underpaid, etc, etc, I have friends who are, but by all means if you are so freaking scared that you shoot at the next person IN ORDER TO KILL just cause he's backing up, THINK.
Sorry if this sounds like I'm agitated here, but some things I just don't understand. This is the only country where things end like this on a regular basis, when they don't have to.
Just my $0.02
 
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