La La Land iTunes HD vs Blu-ray

[Gulfam]

I recently bought La La Land on iTunes and noticed in several scenes what appeared to be a slight judder when the camera pans and other times where the video doesn't look as sharp as it should. I've also paused the video and gone up close to the screen and the grain looks more like video noise, again not as sharp as I was expecting.

Has anyone watched this film both on iTunes and blu-ray and is able to comment if these issues are present on the disc? I have a 35+Mbps download speed so it's nothing to do with the connection.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

You appear to get that there is less compression on the disc than on the streaming version. Your internet speed is plenty fast but faster doesn't download any other (less compressed) file (there's just one 1080p file regardless of connection speed). As you appear to surmise, the BD version probably won't have the same judder.

Basically, iTunes files are optimized for streaming, with someone making some decision about what levels of compression is a "good enough" balance of quality vs. file size. They have to favor the latter because they want to be able to sell/rent movies to those with much slower internet speeds than you and not have them overly frustrated at classic "buffering" type interruptions. So they really compress it vs. the BD to try to deliver a good experience to as many as possible.

The BD doesn't have to worry about variations of bandwidth. It is a self-contained delivery medium. Conceptually, each movie could take up to ALL of the space on the disc. Even a guy with a dial-up connection can enjoy the BD file to it's fullest. Where the average 1080p iTunes file might top out at 5GB-12GB, the disc version of the same can use 10-20+ times that much space if the Studio believes the optimal version of the BD version needs that much space. The Studio doesn't have to think much about compression compromises because the medium provides enormous capacity. They don't have to think about slow Internet connections because it doesn't depend on an Internet connection.

Conceptually, there even an extremes here. The packager of the streaming version has to think hard about file size economy. The focus is basically: how small can I get this file? The packager of the disc version is almost at the opposite extreme. Their "canvas" is huge and it's basically "use it or lose it" as aiming for space-saving economy on a disc doesn't accomplish anything at all. It's not like a hard drive where any remaining free space can be used for other stuff. It's the other way: use the available space or it's just wasted space on read-only optical discs.

Now, that written, the arguments about iTunes video looking great can apply (eye of the beholder, original source, etc). Lessor arguments about a well-done iTunes file vs. a poorly-made BD also apply (but those have never made much sense if one just reads the words: why does the latter have to be "poorly-made" and never vice-versa?). And thus, it could be that the BD version has the judder too because maybe the original source has it? Or maybe it's in the film itself- I do remember some fast panning in select scenes. But all things considered: you're probably seeing some judder because of the greater compression of the streaming file and it probably won't be there in the lessor compression in the disc version.

In a broad stroke: for the quality hounds (like me), the disc version is pretty much ALWAYS a superior source to any streaming version of the same. That's basically by design, courtesy of the fundamental limitations & objectives of each medium. Nobody can legitimately argue something different without getting very subjective and/or twisting the packaging conditions only to favor the much smaller file.

 

[priitv8]

iTunes HD versions were known for notoriously low bitrate. Around 5-8Mpbs. Just marginally higher than the 720p versions.
I have no idea if things have changed lately.
iTunes 4K streaming seems to deliver best-of-class bitrates on streaming arena.

 

[Gulfam]

You appear to get that there is less compression on the disc than on the streaming version. Your internet speed is plenty fast but faster doesn't download any other (less compressed) file (there's just one 1080p file regardless of connection speed). As you appear to surmise, the BD version probably won't have the same judder.

Basically, iTunes files are optimized for streaming, with someone making some decision about what levels of compression is a "good enough" balance of quality vs. file size. They have to favor the latter because they want to be able to sell/rent movies to those with much slower internet speeds than you and not have them overly frustrated at classic "buffering" type interruptions. So they really compress it vs. the BD to try to deliver a good experience to as many as possible.

The BD doesn't have to worry about variations of bandwidth. It is a self-contained delivery medium. Conceptually, each movie could take up to ALL of the space on the disc. Even a guy with a dial-up connection can enjoy the BD file to it's fullest. Where the average 1080p iTunes file might top out at 5GB-12GB, the disc version of the same can use 10-20+ times that much space if the Studio believes the optimal version of the BD version needs that much space. The Studio doesn't have to think much about compression compromises because the medium provides enormous capacity. They don't have to think about slow Internet connections because it doesn't depend on an Internet connection.

Conceptually, there even an extremes here. The packager of the streaming version has to think hard about file size economy. The focus is basically: how small can I get this file? The packager of the disc version is almost at the opposite extreme. Their "canvas" is huge and it's basically "use it or lose it" as aiming for space-saving economy on a disc doesn't accomplish anything at all. It's not like a hard drive where any remaining free space can be used for other stuff. It's the other way: use the available space or it's just wasted space on read-only optical discs.

Now, that written, the arguments about iTunes video looking great can apply (eye of the beholder, original source, etc). Lessor arguments about a well-done iTunes file vs. a poorly-made BD also apply (but those have never made much sense if one just reads the words: why does the latter have to be "poorly-made" and never vice-versa?). And thus, it could be that the BD version has the judder too because maybe the original source has it? Or maybe it's in the film itself- I do remember some fast panning in select scenes. But all things considered: you're probably seeing some judder because of the greater compression of the streaming file and it probably won't be there in the lessor compression in the disc version.

In a broad stroke: for the quality hounds (like me), the disc version is pretty much ALWAYS a superior source to any streaming version of the same. That's basically by design, courtesy of the fundamental limitations & objectives of each medium. Nobody can legitimately argue something different without getting very subjective and/or twisting the packaging conditions only to favor the much smaller file.

Thank you for the detailed response. I was surprised to see that the iTunes videos are this compressed. This was my second iTunes movie I watched, the first being The Conjuring, which I also noticed some slight problems with.

What's interesting is that I've watched movies using different services like YouTube when I've rented something from Google Play and Amazon Video plus Netflix and Amazon Prime etc, not once have I noticed any issues with movies until now. I was thinking maybe I didn't have my ATV4 setup properly, as I did notice some judder in a Netflix video recently also that's never happened before. I'm new to the ATV and therefore was thinking if it's something relating to that. I have the video set to 1080p/50hz although my TV can handle 50 and 60hz and I've tried both but the judder effect on La La Land didn't go away.

I agree with what you're saying that the disc will always give the same quality, however it could also be true that the juddering is part of the source and might also be on the disc. The thing is if it were to happen on the disc I'd know its in the movie but watching the movie digitally you can't help but wonder if its something to do with the video quality being inferior on iTunes.

I don't know whether to play around with the settings or maybe get the disc and compare. I like the convenience of digital but if its going to be inferior quality, I'd rather stick with the blu-rays.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

There are a lot of possibilities. You certainly cannot really compare streaming quality service to service by watching different movies, etc. It could be that you just happened to be watching LaLa when there was high demand on your own broadband at that time (maybe others streaming other stuff at the time). Maybe the pipe itself was unusually in high demand at that particular point in time (maybe everybody in the neighborhood was asking a lot of the community broadband pool). Etc.

Try watching the problematic scenes at several points during the day. Judder every time? Watch it on a Mac or iPhone and see if it judders there too.

As to playing around with settings, there's probably not much there to make a difference. If you want to think it's an individual, "my setup" issue, I'd do some testing with your wifi vs. ethernet connection. For example a pretty simple test would be to temporarily connect "the other way" (ethernet if using wifi now or vice versa) and stream the same scenes again. Judder in the same spots again?

Especially if you are leaning on wifi (as many do), were there other devices in the home in use known to also consume wifi bandwidth and/or interrupt/disrupt wifi? 5 kids streaming 5 videos in other rooms? Etc.

Odds are high that if it's individual, it's probably more in that direction than something in the menus.

An easy(ier?) test would be to take your TV to a friend's home and thus change everything about your supporting setup. Then run the stream there and see if the judder is in the same spot.

I definitely would NOT be so quick to conclude that iTunes streaming video is compressed more than Google & Amazon, etc. While that could just happen to be true with any one movie, it's probably NOT the case on any universal level. A real test in that direction would be to rent LaLa from those other sources and watch the same problematic scenes through them too.

But maybe someone will do what you ask and chime in with experience with the BD version and confirm or refute the judder on the disc too. You might want to pin down very specific points in the movie where you see the judder, so that a BD owner can jump to those very same points.

One more thing: grain is not necessarily a compression thing at all. Some might even argue that grain is desired for a more authentic movie look. On the flip side, extreme clarity of image can be put down as the "spanish soap opera" effect. All that is somewhat personal preference and director choices.

 

[Gulfam]

There are a lot of possibilities. You certainly cannot really compare streaming quality service to service by watching different movies, etc. It could be that you just happened to be watching LaLa when there was high demand on your own broadband at that time (maybe others streaming other stuff at the time). Maybe the pipe itself was unusually in high demand at that particular point in time (maybe everybody in the neighborhood was asking a lot of the community broadband pool). Etc.

Try watching the problematic scenes at several points during the day. Judder every time? Watch it on a Mac or iPhone and see if it judders there too.

As to playing around with settings, there's probably not much there to make a difference. If you want to think it's an individual, "my setup" issue, I'd do some testing with your wifi vs. ethernet connection. For example a pretty simple test would be to temporarily connect "the other way" (ethernet if using wifi now or vice versa) and stream the same scenes again. Judder in the same spots again?

Especially if you are leaning on wifi (as many do), were there other devices in the home in use known to also consume wifi bandwidth and/or interrupt/disrupt wifi? 5 kids streaming 5 videos in other rooms? Etc.

Odds are high that if it's individual, it's probably more in that direction than something in the menus.

An easy(ier?) test would be to take your TV to a friend's home and thus change everything about your supporting setup. Then run the stream there and see if the judder is in the same spot.

I definitely would NOT be so quick to conclude that iTunes streaming video is compressed more than Google & Amazon, etc. While that could just happen to be true with any one movie, it's probably NOT the case on any universal level. A real test in that direction would be to rent LaLa from those other sources and watch the same problematic scenes through them too.

But maybe someone will do what you ask and chime in with experience with the BD version and confirm or refute the judder on the disc too. You might want to pin down very specific points in the movie where you see the judder, so that a BD owner can jump to those very same points.

One more thing: grain is not necessarily a compression thing at all. Some might even argue that grain is desired for a more authentic movie look. On the flip side, extreme clarity of image can be put down as the "spanish soap opera" effect. All that is somewhat personal preference and director choices.

The biggest issue of judder happen during the opening song, when the camera is panning from person to person. It's also here where the image appears softer than I expected it to. The people's face's aren't as sharp looking and I'm not sure if that's down to the source as the natural lighting might have washed out some detail or if it's a compression issue because there's a lot of colour and a lot happening in the scene.

Regarding the grain, I also prefer grain as it does have a more filmic look. I believe La La Land was shot on film so grain should be apparent in a few scenes. My issue is that the grain looks blotchy and noisy, again not as sharp or detailed when paused and looked at up close. Also detail in faces is not as sharp either.

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

Regarding the judder - having the TV and box at 50hz will not help one bit.
1. Enable the frame rate 'Match' in the Apple TV settings. This will then play the film at the native 24 frames per second. This will/should remove any judder
2. What TV and size of TV are you watching on. Personally, I feel that iTunes HD films are the absolute best out there when compared to Amazon, Google etc.

It's a real shame though if you're not pleased with it. Are you not not with it close up (which is not how one watches a TV) or from say 12-15 feet away on your sofa?

Chalk and cheese comparing to disc as iTunes is multi platform - ATV, iPhone, MacBook and a BluRay is old fashioned disc player only - a bit like putting a disc in a CD player in the 80s/90s - remember those plasticky things?
[doublepost=1517593759][/doublepost]Also picture wise, I've never experienced an iTunes HD film were i've thought the picture quality was poor. If anything, i've found most to be outstanding. But again, i'm a casual viewer - once a week but I certainly know quality
[doublepost=1517593947][/doublepost]

The biggest issue of judder happen during the opening song, when the camera is panning from person to person. It's also here where the image appears softer than I expected it to. The people's face's aren't as sharp looking and I'm not sure if that's down to the source as the natural lighting might have washed out some detail or if it's a compression issue because there's a lot of colour and a lot happening in the scene.

Regarding the grain, I also prefer grain as it does have a more filmic look. I believe La La Land was shot on film so grain should be apparent in a few scenes. My issue is that the grain looks blotchy and noisy, again not as sharp or detailed when paused and looked at up close. Also detail in faces is not as sharp either.

Are you sure that you are not over analysing this film and not enjoying it for what it is, a film?
I had an experience were I went to an art house cinema to see 'Absolutely Fabulous'. The quality was horrible - it was played in a soap opera effect - just weird and juddery.

I bought it a year later on iTunes and guess what? It's perfect! No soap opera effect, zero judder. So in conclusion, a far better experience in my lounge than the damn cinema at £25 per ticket!
[doublepost=1517594097][/doublepost]I would not recommend playing the film on a Mac to check for judder. It will have lots of judder on it due to the fact that Macs do not play iTunes film at 24fps!
Even the latest Macs in the Apple Store have plenty of picture judder on pans etc when playing iTunes films/trailers.

 

[Gulfam]

Regarding the judder - having the TV and box at 50hz will not help one bit.
1. Enable the frame rate 'Match' in the Apple TV settings. This will then play the film at the native 24 frames per second. This will/should remove any judder
2. What TV and size of TV are you watching on. Personally, I feel that iTunes HD films are the absolute best out there when compared to Amazon, Google etc.

It's a real shame though if you're not pleased with it. Are you not not with it close up (which is not how one watches a TV) or from say 12-15 feet away on your sofa?

Chalk and cheese comparing to disc as iTunes is multi platform - ATV, iPhone, MacBook and a BluRay is old fashioned disc player only - a bit like putting a disc in a CD player in the 80s/90s - remember those plasticky things?
[doublepost=1517593759][/doublepost]Also picture wise, I've never experienced an iTunes HD film were i've thought the picture quality was poor. If anything, i've found most to be outstanding. But again, i'm a casual viewer - once a week but I certainly know quality
[doublepost=1517593947][/doublepost]

Are you sure that you are not over analysing this film and not enjoying it for what it is, a film?
I had an experience were I went to an art house cinema to see 'Absolutely Fabulous'. The quality was horrible - it was played in a soap opera effect - just weird and juddery.

I bought it a year later on iTunes and guess what? It's perfect! No soap opera effect, zero judder. So in conclusion, a far better experience in my lounge than the damn cinema at £25 per ticket!
[doublepost=1517594097][/doublepost]I would not recommend playing the film on a Mac to check for judder. It will have lots of judder on it due to the fact that Macs do not play iTunes film at 24fps!
Even the latest Macs in the Apple Store have plenty of picture judder on pans etc when playing iTunes films/trailers.

I have a 42" Panasonic Plasma TV which I got in January 2010, not sure exactly when the model originally came out but its definitely 8+ years old now. My viewing distance I would say is typical about 6-7 feet away from the TV. I'm not one to analyse each and every scene of the movie, it's just that the judder took me out of it and because I would like to go from blu-ray to digital, I decided to check how good the quality was up close.

I mentioned before I stream lots of movies and these are the first few instances that this has happened with the judder. When I initially set up my ATV4 last month it automatically detected my TV and set the video to 1080p/50hz, I wasn't aware there's a match video option to match the framerate, where can I find this in the settings? My TV manual says that my TV is both 50hz and 60hz if that makes any difference?

 

[Rigby]

I mentioned before I stream lots of movies and these are the first few instances that this has happened with the judder. When I initially set up my ATV4 last month it automatically detected my TV and set the video to 1080p/50hz, I wasn't aware there's a match video option to match the framerate, where can I find this in the settings?

Do you have an ATV4 or ATV4k? On the ATV4, the setting is currently only available in the latest beta version of the firmware. On the ATV4k, it's available now. See:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208288

My TV manual says that my TV is both 50hz and 60hz if that makes any difference?

Most movies are encoded in 24 (or 23.976) frames per second. If your TV supports these framerates, that will give you the smoothest motion.

Regarding the grain, movies with grain are generally harder to compress than movies with less noise (e.g. most modern movies shot on digital cameras). Accordingly, the quality difference between iTunes and Blu-ray differs depending on the content. Accurate grain reproduction can be difficult even for Blu-ray though.

 

[Gulfam]

Do you have an ATV4 or ATV4k? On the ATV4, the setting is currently only available in the latest beta version of the firmware. On the ATV4k, it's available now. See:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208288
Most movies are encoded in 24 (or 23.976) frames per second. If your TV supports these framerates, that will give you the smoothest motion.

Regarding the grain, movies with grain are generally harder to compress than movies with less noise (e.g. most modern movies shot on digital cameras). Accordingly, the quality difference between iTunes and Blu-ray differs depending on the content. Accurate grain reproduction can be difficult even for Blu-ray though.

Mine is the ATV4. I also forgot to mention that I've got it plugged into a Yamaha receiver sound system so the video comes from that. I don't know if I'd get any different result plugged directly into the TV, but then I'd lose the 5.1 audio.

 

[Rigby]

Mine is the ATV4. I also forgot to mention that I've got it plugged into a Yamaha receiver sound system so the video comes from that. I don't know if I'd get any different result plugged directly into the TV, but then I'd lose the 5.1 audio.

Most modern AVRs support all the common frame rates for HDMI passthrough, including 24, 30, 50 and 60 Hz. So that shouldn't be a problem.

Maybe you can check what frame rate your Blu-ray player is currently set to. Most players can be set to output 24p movies at 24Hz (that may explain why Blu-ray playback is smoother on your system). If it works with the player, it'll also work with the ATV.

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

Mine is the ATV4. I also forgot to mention that I've got it plugged into a Yamaha receiver sound system so the video comes from that. I don't know if I'd get any different result plugged directly into the TV, but then I'd lose the 5.1 audio.

Ah, that explains all. Very soon, you'll be able to change to auto frame rate and it will play perfectly at 24fps - no judder! You'll be a happy man then

It's interesting that you are using 50hz. Are you in the UK? I am and I rented from iTunes LA LA Land a while ago before I to my ATV 4K - I had the same one as you and it output everything to 60fps and I do remember it being juddery on pans. But it didn't notice any poor quality in the picture. I have a 40" Panasonic EX700 4K TV.

You'll be able to update the TVOS in your Apple TV in the next few weeks (it's beta at present) and this will give you 'MATCH FRAME RATE'. I guarantee that you'll be truly delighted!!! Makes a HUGE difference on films with juddery panning. It's annoying or even horrible when you notice things like that - although it must be very hard not to notice a juddery film/video!

Weird that it's taken Apple 7 years to sort this mess out isn't it! My ATV 2 had this problem way back in November 2010!

 

[Gulfam]

Honestly I'm thinking of quitting itunes altogether just because of their atrocious subtitles (closed captions). Everything from physical media to Amazon/Youtube/Netflix have either hard of hearing or standard subs in the centre of the screen near the bottom. ITunes CC are in the middle of the picture and are formatted completely differently that even adjusting the settings on the ATV4 changes the appearance but not the placement. Such a major flaw from something that should have been so simple to implement.

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

Honestly I'm thinking of quitting itunes altogether just because of their atrocious subtitles (closed captions). Everything from physical media to Amazon/Youtube/Netflix have either hard of hearing or standard subs in the centre of the screen near the bottom. ITunes CC are in the middle of the picture and are formatted completely differently that even adjusting the settings on the ATV4 changes the appearance but not the placement. Such a major flaw from something that should have been so simple to implement.

Not too sure why you are having this problem. I buy a lot of foreign film - especially French and Spanish and sometimes i'll put English subtitles on for when my friends are at my house watching the film and so problems. If anything, to me, Apple's subtitles are the most beautiful as they use a really modern looking typeface (Helvetica I believe). I've seen subtitles on the TVs at my gym that show old fashioned traditional TV channels and they look very last century.

Not sure if your box/TV is set up properly with this as it should be perfect. Apple is one of the few companies that take all human abilities very very seriously.

 

[Gulfam]

Not too sure why you are having this problem. I buy a lot of foreign film - especially French and Spanish and sometimes i'll put English subtitles on for when my friends are at my house watching the film and so problems. If anything, to me, Apple's subtitles are the most beautiful as they use a really modern looking typeface (Helvetica I believe). I've seen subtitles on the TVs at my gym that show old fashioned traditional TV channels and they look very last century.

Not sure if your box/TV is set up properly with this as it should be perfect. Apple is one of the few companies that take all human abilities very very seriously.

I imagine foreign films are different, try putting on CC for any Warner Bros film to see.

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

I imagine foreign films are different, try putting on CC for any Warner Bros film to see.

Very strange as Apple are so strict in their guidelines. I've tried Ab Fab a minute ago (BBC/FOX) and that's perfect for sub titles.
Have you tried to play it on a Mac/computer etc to se what it looks like? It could be a setting on the ATV maybe?
If not, it's worth getting in touch with Apple about it as they are perfectionists - especially when it comes to design, layout, typography, user interface etc. They'll want it to be 100% perfect!
I've tried all of the download companies for film - iTunes, Vimeo, ReelHouse, Google, Amazon and I've 100% concluded that iTunes and Vimeo are by far the best by a long shot in terms of 1. Picture quality 2. Reliability (not having to add you own subtitles with a .SRT file 3. Customer Service 4. Choice of HD/4K - with Google Play MOST of the latest films in the UK are only in SD!!! 5. Try looking at Amazon buying film criteria - You may only download a film TWICE!!! And that's it!!! Crazy!

 

[Gulfam]

Very strange as Apple are so strict in their guidelines. I've tried Ab Fab a minute ago (BBC/FOX) and that's perfect for sub titles.
Have you tried to play it on a Mac/computer etc to se what it looks like? It could be a setting on the ATV maybe?
If not, it's worth getting in touch with Apple about it as they are perfectionists - especially when it comes to design, layout, typography, user interface etc. They'll want it to be 100% perfect!
I've tried all of the download companies for film - iTunes, Vimeo, ReelHouse, Google, Amazon and I've 100% concluded that iTunes and Vimeo are by far the best by a long shot in terms of 1. Picture quality 2. Reliability (not having to add you own subtitles with a .SRT file 3. Customer Service 4. Choice of HD/4K - with Google Play MOST of the latest films in the UK are only in SD!!! 5. Try looking at Amazon buying film criteria - You may only download a film TWICE!!! And that's it!!! Crazy!

I've looked into it a little myself. The issue is present on films with CC (closed captions), movies listed as having SDH or subtitles are fine. Could you see if you have any films that have just CC and not subtitles or SDH, and sees how they look. The text is further up the screen than conventional subtitles. For some reason iTunes uses three subtitle settings, CC, SDH and subtitles, whereas Amazon and Netflix etc just use SDH I supoose, which explains why they look normal, like DVD subs.

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

I imagine foreign films are different, try putting on CC for any Warner Bros film to see.

I've looked into it a little myself. The issue is present on films with CC (closed captions), movies listed as having SDH or subtitles are fine. Could you see if you have any films that have just CC and not subtitles or SDH, and sees how they look. The text is further up the screen than conventional subtitles. For some reason iTunes uses three subtitle settings, CC, SDH and subtitles, whereas Amazon and Netflix etc just use SDH I supoose, which explains why they look normal, like DVD subs.

I've just had a look. I own INTO THE WILD, GREASE and THE HOLIDAY with has CC. I switched that on. From what I see, the text appears on the person that is talking etc so rather different than standard subtitles which are centred towards the bottom. I rather like it - it's a more modern approach - reminds me of balloon messages / texts etc - although maybe it could be tiring watching a film all the way through with that style.

 

[Gulfam]

I've just had a look. I own INTO THE WILD, GREASE and THE HOLIDAY with has CC. I switched that on. From what I see, the text appears on the person that is talking etc so rather different than standard subtitles which are centred towards the bottom. I rather like it - it's a more modern approach - reminds me of balloon messages / texts etc - although maybe it could be tiring watching a film all the way through with that style.

Yeah, it's annoying mainly because the text is so small, changing the sub settings to large fixes that problem but then you have to switch it back to medium otherwise subtitles on other apps would appear too large. I havent been able to find any information online about this, especially considering iTunes are the only ones using CCs.