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69Mustang

macrumors 604
Jan 7, 2014
7,895
15,043
In between a rock and a hard place
I live and work by SSD alone. Regardless, its a rip off. Time for the prices to come down on them. Its just pathetic.

Curious. It's a ripoff compared to what? You lobbed a grenade with your original comment and just walked away from it. Why do you think it's overpriced, and overpriced compared to what?

I'm not saying this was your intent but your original comment reminds me of the type of comments people throw out for up votes from a vocal minority who disparage everything without validity.
 

jimthing

macrumors 68000
Apr 6, 2011
1,979
1,139
1TB for $1300? That is very expensive...

It's fast PCIe SSD storage, that's why it's that price. "Expensive" depends on comparison to what the thing is, so in comparison to HDD or non-PCIe SSD's then yes, but compared to other PCIe SSD storage then no.
 

ArtOfWarfare

macrumors G3
Nov 26, 2007
9,560
6,059
As I said....I rely on SSD for its performance...but its beyond ridiculous that a 1 TB still equals $1000 USD +/- a few pennies.

It seems to me that if that were the case, you'd find them for cheaper. LaCie isn't the only company selling them - look around, their prices are competitive.

If you know for a fact that they're overpriced, why don't you bring your own product to market to demonstrate that's the case? A 1 TB SSD at $250 would be a smash hit - I'd happily back you on Kickstarter as would other people.
 

nutmac

macrumors 603
Mar 30, 2004
6,057
7,320
Actually, it is. 2x512 GB of PCIe SSD is over $1,000 by itself.

You're pretty much getting a 2-drive enclosure with a heatsink, fan, TB2 controller and cable for free if you were in the market for 2x512GB of PCIe SSD.

Of course it's targeted at a niche market, but that doesn't make the price bad for what it is.
Right. You are paying for the performance and if you don't need 1GB/sec level performance, you are better off going with cheaper solution, such as Samsung Evo 840 (1TB costs $510) with Seagate Thunderbolt adapter ($90). I have this very setup for Apple Aperture and while it is "only" about a third as fast as LaCie's RAID-0 solution, it is still quite fast at 350+MB/sec.
 

Michael Scrip

macrumors 604
Mar 4, 2011
7,929
12,480
NC
If you're working with 4k, the bitrate is nearly 500mb/s. One hour of footage will eat up over 1.5 TB of storage. I guess if you're working with lower resolutions or short clips, it might be enough storage. But very soon, 4k will be the low-end standard. I suppose if you're a "pro" you could afford a few of these and chain them together.

You gotta remember... anyone who is shooting terabytes of 4K footage a day in the field is probably just copying the footage to a drive to take home... and won't be editing all of it in the field on a laptop. You don't need a super fast PCIe RAID drive to transfer files.

There are already 24TB RAIDs available for your home or studio. But this is a portable version. And it's smaller.

I love how you called this 1TB drive "laughably small" earlier. So I gotta ask... who makes a 2TB PCIe portable drive that is rated at 1375 MB/s ?

Some people are never satisfied... ;)
 

Ak907Freerider

macrumors 6502
Apr 19, 2012
281
0
I think this is a great deal. Super fast speeds to make for a silky smooth editing workflow paired with a new Mac Pro. This is obviously what lacie is targeting. Now if only apple would update their monitors you could have a sweet set up.
 

kwikdeth

macrumors 65816
Feb 25, 2003
1,141
1,713
Tempe, AZ
funny, i just got a special sale email from newegg with 240GB M500 SSD for $112 and a 500GB samsung evo for $270. while its nowhere in the same league performance as this monster, i really think the whole premium pricing on SSD thing is not as much a factor as it used to be. the constantly lowering price threshold on drives like samsung evo series go to underscore its not the same market it used to be.

while i agree this is for a niche market and priced to match, its no secret that LaCie charges an exhorbitant premium on their products. theyve been like that since the 90s. no surprises here.
 

thats all folks

macrumors 6502a
Dec 20, 2013
675
750
Austin (supposedly in Texas)
People who use/need stuff like this make that in a day, or more. Still surprised that people just don't get that.

Which people are those?

----------

Not for you. Not for me. But for the niche LaCie makes this for, it's great. This is pennies for a big production house.

And 1TB of space is several dozen french fries short of an order for a "big production house". And is that how the big boys do it? A bunch of external drives hooked up to everyone's workstation?
 

Michael Scrip

macrumors 604
Mar 4, 2011
7,929
12,480
NC
And 1TB of space is several dozen french fries short of an order for a "big production house". And is that how the big boys do it? A bunch of external drives hooked up to everyone's workstation?

Big production houses most likely use a centralized storage server that all workstations can connect to.

This fast portable Lacie drive allows for fast editing on-the-go if needed.

I don't know why everyone is crapping all over this drive. Have there been any other 1TB Thunderbolt 2 PCIe SSD RAID portable drives like this before?
 

pgiguere1

macrumors 68020
May 28, 2009
2,167
1,200
Montreal, Canada
Right. You are paying for the performance and if you don't need 1GB/sec level performance, you are better off going with cheaper solution, such as Samsung Evo 840 (1TB costs $510) with Seagate Thunderbolt adapter ($90). I have this very setup for Apple Aperture and while it is "only" about a third as fast as LaCie's RAID-0 solution, it is still quite fast at 350+MB/sec.

Yup, the performance per dollar definitely has diminishing returns. That's why such a high-end solution is very niche, even for a lot of Mac Pro users.

Your solution is more likely to appeal to most prosumers and small businesses.
 

Nee412

macrumors 6502
Jun 25, 2010
281
8
Sunny England!
I really don't have any computing needs that would justify anything with this much speed.

It is around the price range I expected for what it is though. It's PCIe storage with a thunderbolt 2 connection. I imagine there are quite a few 4K video editors and animators who are serious considering these to go along with their new Mac Pros.

For those that don't think this is a fair price. Find another PCIe thunderbolt 2 drive for sale anywhere right now? The when you figure there isn't one, find all the separate parts and add up the price. Make sure you get the right MB/s, and you'll shocked at the outcome.

This is a niche product for those that need it. Most of us don't.
 

Woyzeck

macrumors 6502
Nov 2, 2012
441
499
I'll never understand why Apple decided on Thunderbolt.

On one hand they always tell us that they only deliver features that everyone needs. Niche requirements (DVD/BluRay drive, user replaceable RAM/disks, ...) are not considered worthwhile to make it into their designs.

On the other hand the market for Thunderbolt devices with their ridiculous price premium is so tiny that I'd not even consider this a niche at all. It's perhaps a few thousand individuals worldwide that really need this.

All others are happy with USB3, wired LAN and fast NAS drives.
 

neuropsychguy

macrumors 68020
Sep 29, 2008
2,382
5,666
RAID 0 is a stripe set, so both drives run in parallel. So, if I do the math correctly "Those drives" would do 2x830 r, 2x810 w, so faster.

That can be true for sequential transfers but real world performance is a different matter (see: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ssd-raid-benchmark,3485-13.html). Of course, what this means is that these LaCie drives might not be as fast as they state in the real world (surprise, surprise!). That being said, this unit is reasonably priced for what it is.
 

paulrbeers

macrumors 68040
Dec 17, 2009
3,963
123
On one hand they always tell us that they only deliver features that everyone needs. Niche requirements (DVD/BluRay drive, user replaceable RAM/disks, ...) are not considered worthwhile to make it into their designs.

On the other hand the market for Thunderbolt devices with their ridiculous price premium is so tiny that I'd not even consider this a niche at all. It's perhaps a few thousand individuals worldwide that really need this.

All others are happy with USB3, wired LAN and fast NAS drives.


You'll need to provide links to where apple states that user replaceable RAM/disks aren't considered worth worthwhile? The ONLY thing that Steve Jobs ever said wasn't worth it to him was Blu-Ray. He prefers to go optical-less which is quite obvious. The rest you are just making up.

As for Thunderbolt, maybe you have no need for it, but I have a very nice Thunder Dock by Akitio sitting in my office that allows me to hook a Monitor, eSATA, USB 3.0 and Firewire all via one cable. For $259. That puts it at the high end, but not unreasonable for any Port Replicator/Dock I have ever bought for a PC. The only difference between that and a port replicator, is that I hook a cable rather then use a built in slot on the laptop.

If you have never used a dock/port replicator then you have no idea.
 

TonyPaco

macrumors newbie
Feb 19, 2008
9
5
Oshvegas
It looks good but I refuse to buy anything from LaCie ever again. Had way too many hard drives break and terrible customer service.

I'll stick with OWC for now even though they are slow to market.

I'm with you pal. Every LaCie drive I've ever had broke after 16 months, which was 4 months after the warranty ended.

Though, with this one, they are offering a 3-year warranty. So, at least I'd be set with a drive for 40 months...
 

jdiamond

macrumors 6502a
Dec 17, 2008
699
535
Welcome to the end of Moore's Law...

I wonder what the hold-up is with SSD drives. The capacity is still relatively low and the prices are still really high. If this is aimed at video pros, 1 TB is a laughably small drive.

Flash prices are high because they are a semiconductor memory type, more like DRAM, not a magnetic media. However, the bigger problem is the end of Moore's Law. That's why hard drives still cost $80/TB after 6 years and DRAM still costs $5-$10/GB. Flash only has at most two generations of scaling left, so it will likely NEVER get as cheap as hard drives. (The only reason flash is as cheap as it is is because of MLC - being able to store 8 values per bit instead of 2.)

This is what the end of Moore's Law will mean for all of us - you'll still be able to buy cool things, but it will cost you big time. Ten times the storage will cost 10x as much as 1x the storage. And like the 1980's, people will think nothing of a $2,500 peripheral if it's high end. In fact, that will be the STANDARD price for high end peripherals. (Of course, I haven't adjusted $2,500 from 1985 dollars to now, so you can only imagine...)

BTW - get ready to start seeing high end components get physically BIG again, since density increases are nearly finished...
 

Digital Skunk

macrumors G3
Dec 23, 2006
8,097
923
In my imagination
Surely 1TB is enough space for a working drive. A portable working drive at that.

The tagline says "The World's Fastest Portable Storage"

This isn't meant to be a vault where you archive year's worth of projects and media.

True, but they are also marketing this as something that can handle 4K footage. The most ubiquitous HD footage was a Gigabyte a minute.

Now, 4K (assuming it's 4096x2160 @ 24fps 4:2:2 is asking us for about 20GBs for one minute. I am glad that we can get about 50 minutes of 4k footage on this thing, but that's considering you have a short piece with no accompanying 4k graphics.

Again, I agree with you, but i don't think this drive will push a lot of mobile editors to buy, and then edit 4k in the field. I do see it being nice for moving massive amounts of HD footage over that fat TB2 pipe where a TB is still a decent amount of space.

I can see a technician with a cart in the field with two or three of these chained together to help move some data too.

It not being bus powered is a terrible oversight by LaCie.

If you're working with 4k, the bitrate is nearly 500mb/s. One hour of footage will eat up over 1.5 TB of storage. I guess if you're working with lower resolutions or short clips, it might be enough storage. But very soon, 4k will be the low-end standard. I suppose if you're a "pro" you could afford a few of these and chain them together.

Agreed, but the minute you offline your files, you're no longer working with full 4k and don't need the bandwidth that TB2 has. You could get by just fine with eSATA at that point.

Even a pro has to be frugal. Dropping $2600 on two 1TB SSD drives over TB2 is wonderful, but so is paying half as much for something that gets the job done now, without all the glamour.

Bus Powered would have been great#

This is what really kills it for me. It's one thing to charge me $1300 for a mobile drive, it's another to ask me to plug a mobile drive in whenever I need it.

It's not TB2, but the Drobo Mini would be a better option at that point.
 

rei101

macrumors 6502a
Dec 24, 2011
976
1
Two things that stick in my memory

1) Looking through the Windows 95 help guide we got with a PC back in 1995, it showed a computer with two hard drives. I never thought I'd afford a computer with more than one (now I have about 12.5TB)

2) When I got my iMac DV 400 (Blueberry) I never thought I'd be able to afford anything USB as it was so expensive at the time.

Now when I look at any Thunderbolt peripherals I think I'm never going to afford anything Thunderbolt....Then a story like this comes out and I'm pretty sure I'll still never be able to afford anything Thunderbolt

pac

Well, the first time I bough a CD I didn't have a CD player yet. I remember I got it at an airport, it was Speak & Spell by Depeche Mode, around 1988-89. But you could get a simple CD player for over $1000. Later on the cost $120.

Regarding Thunderbold... no TV station is transmitting in 4K, there are no 4K DVDs/ Blu-Ray. So... you can wait easy 2 more years at least.

As a video editor myself, I still working on FCP 7, editing videos in SD on a 2008 Mac Pro and making around $70K a year. That is the reality out there.
 

mjsanders5uk

macrumors regular
May 11, 2009
100
0
People who use/need stuff like this make that in a day, or more. Still surprised that people just don't get that.

This is a game changer for those of us that edit video on the road.

Its less to carry and more performance = a double win. Also its flash memory which means less worrying about what happens to spinning disc drives, which even in big protective peli cases are still very susceptible to the slightest knock.

I have a gig coming up in the next month or so which will involve being on the road for two weeks delivering daily news pieces. One of these will be with me assuming I can get one on time.

EDIT: AGHHH just seen its not bus powered.. Er OK, might not be the game changer then. Still useful though.
 

g4cube

macrumors 6502a
Apr 22, 2003
760
13
Regarding lack of bus power.

Remember, there are 2 SSD devices inside. I don't think Thunderbolt's 10w is enough for 2xSSD + controller + 4k DP video regeneration.

Another clue is the heavy duty heat sinks visible in the LaCie video and photos. If the power needs were small, I think the design would be more simple. SSDs do get warm, even hot when continuously written to.

So, speedy performance comes at a price.

Also, can't have daisy-chain with bus powered devices, as device must still deliver 10watts to next device in the chain. Could be another bus powered device or optical cable downstream. Yeah optical cable doesn't need 10w, but does need some power.
 

repoman27

macrumors 6502
May 13, 2011
485
167
I live and work by SSD alone. Regardless, its a rip off. Time for the prices to come down on them. Its just pathetic.

It might be time for you to learn a bit about physics and economics. NAND prices are at historic lows at the moment, and you're barely paying a premium over the price of the silicon itself when you buy an SSD right now.

The highest capacity MLC chips available in shipping devices are Micron's 20 nm, 128 Gb chips with a die size of 202 mm^2. Back of the envelope, they might yield 260 good die per 300 mm wafer with a tested wafer cost of $1700. That means each die costs in the neighborhood of $6.54 to produce. Those die currently have a spot price of $8.00, which makes for a pretty thin margin. However, a single 960 GB SSD requires 64 of these die, and connecting that many to a single controller is about the limit of what's reasonable in terms of parallelism for a consumer device these days. But first they need to have their backs lapped until they are paper thin before being stacked 8 high, wire bonded, bumped and packaged. The 8 finished packages then need to be paired with an 8-channel controller on a PCB to create an SSD. Now remember, just the NAND die alone cost Micron $418.46 to produce, yet right now you can pick up a 960GB Crucial M500 2.5" SSD from B&H for $449.99.

Why would Micron possibly do this? Because Samsung has 19 nm TLC NAND and will eat their lunch otherwise. By storing 3 bits per cell Sammy's 128 Gb TLC chips can pack the same number of bits onto a die that I'd wager is close to (but not smaller than) 170 mm^2. This means that from the same $1700 wafer they can yield 314 die at a cost of just $5.41 per die. So that Samsung EVO 1 TB 2.5" SSD that you can buy today for $509.00 is packing $346.50 worth of raw NAND silicon, but somehow Samsung and the channel might possibly still be making a couple bucks. Mind you, Samsung is the largest and most vertically integrated player in the space, making everything from the NAND to the controller to the finished product itself.

funny, i just got a special sale email from newegg with 240GB M500 SSD for $112 and a 500GB samsung evo for $270. while its nowhere in the same league performance as this monster, i really think the whole premium pricing on SSD thing is not as much a factor as it used to be. the constantly lowering price threshold on drives like samsung evo series go to underscore its not the same market it used to be.

while i agree this is for a niche market and priced to match, its no secret that LaCie charges an exhorbitant premium on their products. theyve been like that since the 90s. no surprises here.

I think you'll find that LaCie is a rather different company now that they're owned by Seagate. While they're still not shy about taking a healthy margin, it seems as though they at least had actual engineers working on this design, as opposed to just iconic industrial designers. And there is simply no way that LaCie's release price for this device can match that of the cheapest commodity SSD ever produced from a high-volume, discount e-tailer like Newegg.

2 * $270 + $180 = $720 (i.e. the cheapest this thing could reasonably retail for)

Now if you figure that this product could end up retailing at a 30% discount in the not to distant future, then LaCie needs to pad the release price (just like Samsung did—the MSRP on that 500 GB EVO was originally $369.99).

$720 / 0.72 = $1000

When you build in the fact that these are more rarified, performant and expensive PCIe M.2 SSDs, and you get a Thunderbolt cable in the box, the "LaCie tax" doesn't seem so bad after all.

$1299 = totally reasonable.

Flash prices are high because they are a semiconductor memory type, more like DRAM, not a magnetic media. However, the bigger problem is the end of Moore's Law. That's why hard drives still cost $80/TB after 6 years and DRAM still costs $5-$10/GB. Flash only has at most two generations of scaling left, so it will likely NEVER get as cheap as hard drives. (The only reason flash is as cheap as it is is because of MLC - being able to store 8 values per bit instead of 2.)

This is what the end of Moore's Law will mean for all of us - you'll still be able to buy cool things, but it will cost you big time. Ten times the storage will cost 10x as much as 1x the storage. And like the 1980's, people will think nothing of a $2,500 peripheral if it's high end. In fact, that will be the STANDARD price for high end peripherals. (Of course, I haven't adjusted $2,500 from 1985 dollars to now, so you can only imagine...)

BTW - get ready to start seeing high end components get physically BIG again, since density increases are nearly finished...

Don't worry; things will keep shrinking. Going vertical will keep Moore's law chugging along for quite a while yet.
 
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