Lawmakers Express Concern Over Apple's 'Anticompetitive Treatment' of iMessage for Android App

[Fender2112]

I'm with Apple on this one. The politicians don't fully understand what is going on here.

What Beeper Mini did is equivalent to someone making a copy of your door key and using it to enter your home without permission.

 

[Sorinut]

I'm with Apple on this one. The politicians don't fully understand what is going on here.

What Beeper Mini did is equivalent to someone making a copy of your door key and using it to enter your home without permission.

Naa, not really. It's more analogous to Beeper giving you a uniform and allowing you to pretend to be Apple's mail carrier, and Apple hands over their mail without knowing, and the fake carrier delivers it anyway, and returns with mail going to Apple. Beeper, as a company/entity, never logs in or connects to Apple's server; the end-user does that, with an easily and legally-created Apple ID.

What Beeper does is allow that end-user to pretend to be a Mac, all on device. Apple doesn't require you to own any Apple devices to create an Apple ID.

 

[cocky jeremy]

Apple is keeping proprietary systems for themselves only. The same as any other company. Coke has a large market share. You going to force them to share their recipe with Pepsi? This stuff is stupid as hell.

 

[5232152]

So patching security holes is illegal now?

This is like a drunk person almost hitting people in his car before he crash and be like "Oh, so you can't drive your car in this country now?!"

If you actively refuse to get the context right your outcome will be biased beyond belief.

 

[5232152]

Apple is keeping proprietary systems for themselves only. The same as any other company. Coke has a large market share. You going to force them to share their recipe with Pepsi? This stuff is stupid as hell.

Apple refuses to let me use standard messaging app to communicate with other device in a encrypted manner. Let's just, for the sake of argument, saying that was alright (I don't see how anyone can argue it is tbh), I still need an Apple user to get my hands on an alternative app.

Welcome to the world of monopoly players trying to make more money on people regardless of convenience, safety, or global norms.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

Apple isn't a monopoly. It is an Apple product. If you don't like it use an alternative.

You're right it's not a monopoly. It's a duopoly shared with Google.

Not very long ago, Apple used to be a company that innovated and contributed to new technology standards.. now it just fights them in court and market to ensure the users are still using decade old proprietary technologies.

This is unfortunately going to be Tim Cook’s Legacy.

Well at least we had some good in Tim Cook's legacy. The Mac moving to Apple Silicon making it the best it's ever been. AirPods are pretty cool and completely changed headphones forever. Apple got into streaming services and have made some absolutely fantastic TV shows and movies, and we're getting an AR headset next year, the first new major product category since the iPad (I don't count the Apple Watch since it's dependent on an iPhone and at this point is more an accessory)

You are right. Thanks for correcting me. But still Google has made RCS very popular by adopting it, even if not whole heartedly initially.

There's many things that Apple made very popular by adopting it, most notably USB-A. Yeah, the G3 iMac and iBook popularized the USB-A standard by being the first major computer using it, in an era where PC accessory connections looked like this:

Apple also popularized wifi as the iBook was also the first laptop that supported wifi connectivity, with Apple also having a wifi modem called AirPort.

And lest we forget Apple created the first ultrabook with the first gen Macbook Air, which got OEMs to follow suit with the majority of laptops nowadays being thin and light (or at least trying to be)

So I don't understand the hesitation over adopting RCS just because Google popularized it given all the stuff Apple popularized and no one on the PC side batted an eye over that. Things that get popularized get popularized because they're genuinely good, simple as

And yes Apple is contributing more now but only to its own ecosystem. You can’t name 5 things that they contributed to the industry in the last 5 years.

Yeah nothing...well except for:

• Matter
• Contactless payment systems with Apple Pay
• USB-C
• ARM, you know, the architecture that all phones use and now their computers which is putting pressure on PC OEMs to step up their game
• And of course the Swift programming language which is open source and fully accessible in Apple's Github

Yes they primarily focus on their own ecosystem, but to say they haven't contribute anything to the industry in the last 5 years is completely untrue especially after the pandemic

People celebrated Beeper shutdown too early. I hope Lawmakers investigate macOS too maybe opening it up to other SoC and platforms.

God I would love to have macOS on non-Mac devices, as unlikely as that is. Really though macOS just needs to not be a nightmare to develop on which would convince non-Mac devs to start supporting the platform again. App notarization and forcing proprietary APIs did longterm damage to Mac gaming and software development

Name another industry where if someone does an "experience" better, all the other companies have a right to attain their level of service by forcing the superior vendor to share.

Well utilities for one. Utility companies often rely heavily on contracts with suppliers and vendors. When one vendor demonstrations superior performance, other companies in the industry may seek to learn from their practices

Aerospace and defense is another. Many aerospace and defense companies collab with each other to develop the best gear for their country's military, even companies who are historically rivals. The FGM-148 Javelin AKA a Russian tank's worst nightmare and signature weapon of the Ukrainian army was made by Texas Instruments and Raytheon Technologies. (Yes, a company that historically makes calculators makes anti-tank weapons. Wait until you learn that General Electric made the GAU-8 Avenger machine gun on the A-10 Thunderbolt. Or how Samsung and Kia made a howitzer for the Korean Army)

And then there's the financial sector. The entire financial industry is built on the superior vendors sharing. Goldman Sachs' entire business structure is sharing their level of service to other businesses.

So this kind of practice is not unusual

Apple is keeping proprietary systems for themselves only. The same as any other company. Coke has a large market share. You going to force them to share their recipe with Pepsi? This stuff is stupid as hell.

Hate to break it to you but the Coke secret formula is a marketing ploy. The formula has been known for decades now and variations of it was made into the open-source cola license. The full Coke formula is protected by IP so Coca-Cola's version of Coke is still theirs, but variations of the formula are fair game.

Open-source cola - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[MNGR]

Fight?
No one cares about USBC vs lightening except some weird zealots.

Side loading is a disaster that many users do not want. Not ever and it will be forced on everyone once that happens. No console allows side loading. If you want the computer phone experience Android caters to that crowd. That is the choice. If you want to load random games on a pS5 you cannot.

RCS is a mess made by Google who couldn’t get their crap together in messaging but know everyone thinks they are behind. They are free to make an RCS app for Apple. Everyone uses WhatsApp’s anyway…is that open?

USB-C is not nearly as physically protected as Lightning. iMessage is fully end to end encrypted.
RCS is a mess and the non-google variety will be supported by Apple in 24

And I have zero desire in side-loading.
For everyone who is screaming for it, who are you going to blame when things go south? If IOS has a function that allows it, that is another avenue for bad folks to attack your device.

 

[MrSegundus]

As they should be. Many of us are only using iPhone because of the Messages app. It’s abhorrent that Apple ties us in just because of that. I wouldn’t even use iPhone if Messages were on Android. I’d be using Samsung phones since they’re much better hardware and have way more useful features.

 

[Ethosik]

It can be confusing so let me explain my point.
Apple created iMessage and locked it up for everyone else.
Google helped created RCS and opened it up for others.
Now iPhone users can communicate well with each other but for iPhone and Android users to communicate with each other they need to use a third option like Messenger or Whatsapp. Neither of them is known for user privacy or encryption.

100% false. I communicate with Android users daily. Sharing pet pics and videos too.

 

[Sorinut]

For everyone who is screaming for it, who are you going to blame when things go south? If IOS has a function that allows it, that is another avenue for bad folks to attack your device.

Myself. Same as if I installed malware on my Mac.

100% false. I communicate with Android users daily. Sharing pet pics and videos too.

You communicate unencrypted, if using default apps. I won't chat/text with anyone unencrypted, if I can avoid it. I don't really use iMessage much, even though I'm in the US.

My wife is an Android user. We use third-party encrypted chat since first-party apps don't allow for it.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

USB-C is not nearly as physically protected as Lightning. iMessage is fully end to end encrypted.
RCS is a mess and the non-google variety will be supported by Apple in 24

And I have zero desire in side-loading.
For everyone who is screaming for it, who are you going to blame when things go south? If IOS has a function that allows it, that is another avenue for bad folks to attack your device.

Can we stop calling it sideloading and call it by it's real name: Installing software. Because that's all it is, installing software without an app store, like on your desktop. Apple gaslit y'all into thinking installing software outside of their app store is taboo when we've been doing it for decades on the Mac and still do.

 

[Ethosik]

I mean, yeah, it works perfectly as long as you wilfully ignore or don't care about the parts that are bad or broken.

Do me a favour and try leave a group chat where one of the participants is on Android — you can't.
Or send/receive images with an Android device — they'll be compressed to hell and back.
And the video thing, I get that you don't care, but that doesn't make the experience good.

The problems still exist even if you don't want to acknowledge them.

You are being way over the top. I get pet pics and videos from my Android friends and the quality is amazing. “Compressed to hell and back” is so over exaggerated it’s ridiculous. We don’t need 100k resolution in text messages for goodness sake.

 

[charlesdayton]

Apple spends money on hosting iMessage servers, R&D, engineering and programmers. This is paid for by iOS/Mac sales. A service for people using Apple devices.

Why do they need to let some company use their service for free compromising security in the process?

It’s like if someone made an app or site that allows you to view Netflix movies for free outside of the Netflix apps.
Oh wait, that exists and is illegal…

So much for lawmakers

 

[djphat2000]

Oh, stop already. This fixation on that "Apple isn't innovating because each iteration looks physically similar" is just bogus. Technology is getting more and more advanced, while Apple works tirelessly to keep that technology easy to use for end-users. Where they are innovating is deep in the technology stack, not some fancy new exterior phone design.

Since OS X was released, Apple has embraced open standards at its core. Being built on a UNIX core, this makes sense. Its Mail service uses standard IMAP protocols, not the proprietary versions that Microsoft (MAPI) and Google push for their services. Its Contact syncing uses standard vCard format, not the proprietary half-baked support that Microsoft and Google employed in their contact setups. Those are just 2 examples of where macOS has excelled for the past 24 years.

Anyone can fire up Terminal and install an endless range of open-source software. See MacPorts and Homebrew for two popular package managers used on Macs.

The Mac is more open-source than Windows, and iOS is built on the same core system, just not as "open" as a Mac is.

USB-C, which has been a hot topic, was directly inspired by Lightning's reversible connector. Until Type-C, every version of USB used a non-reversible connector because the larger industry was so fixed on their old ways of thinking. Apple showed them a better way.

Is Apple doing everything perfectly? Absolutely not. Nobody does, but you can't dismiss the tremendous contributions that they make across industries. They are the envy of computer and phone manufacturers across the globe because of these contributions. Just think back 30 years ago about how convoluted and archaic the computer industry was, and yet now we live in an age where Windows itself is trying to emulate the simplicity of macOS, which Apple mastered back in 1984.

Back on topic — Why would Beeper Mini be making headlines trying to break into the iMessage world? Because — iMessage is an excellent standard of messaging — developed by Apple. Go figure.

I would like to add that the PC industry is literally shifting processors to ARM from x86 because of Apple.
Not exactly a small thing to upend both AMD and intel.

 

[Ethosik]

Can we stop calling it sideloading and call it by it's real name: Installing software. Because that's all it is, installing software without an app store, like on your desktop. Apple gaslit y'all into thinking installing software outside of their app store is taboo when we've been doing it for decades on the Mac and still do.

Side loading adds context to the conversation in a quick way. “Installing” doesn’t. Installing software? I can do that already on my iPhone. Installing from App Store. See? Now you have unnecessary back and forth.

I really don’t understand your constant complaint about using a word that inherently adds context necessary for a conversation.

Side loading is one or two words depending on auto correct. It’s easier to get the point across.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

Side loading adds context to the conversation in a quick way. “Installing” doesn’t. Installing software? I can do that already on my iPhone. Installing from App Store. See? Now you have unnecessary back and forth.

I really don’t understand your constant complaint about using a word that inherently adds context necessary for a conversation.

Because "sideloading" makes it sound taboo when it's really not, Apple just makes it out to be taboo. Makes it sound like you're not supposed to install stuff outside of an app store. That's why I hate the term.

 

[wanha]

What Beeper is doing is not illegal, they are not breaking any laws, all they have done is used Apple's services in a way Apple does not like so Apple has shut it down.

As pointed out in @Sorinut post above, everything Beeper has done is within the acceptable confines of the law BUT Apple used the excuse 'Security and Privacy' to shut them down. THIS is the probable reason why lawmakers are looking into this because whether Apple likes it or not, not in this case, Beeper has done nothing wrong, again as per @Sorinut's post BUT Apple used 'Privacy and Security' as the reason to shut them down. That action can be construed as anticompetitive because Apple is preventing a competitor from doing something that is perfectly acceptable within the confines of the law.

If they broke Apple's terms of service - which I assume but don't know - then they would in fact have done something illegal.

 

[Sorinut]

Apple spends money on hosting iMessage servers, R&D, engineering and programmers. This is paid for by iOS/Mac sales. A service for people using Apple devices.

Why do they need to let some company use their service for free compromising security in the process?

It’s like if someone made an app or site that allows you to view Netflix movies for free outside of the Netflix apps.
Oh wait, that exists and is illegal…

So much for lawmakers

Third party Netflix apps are only illegal because a third-party app would circumvent Netflix's DRM, which goes against the DMCA as they supply copyrighted works. Apple has no such DRM or copyright on your content, only encryption, which you are decrypting via your legally created Apple ID. Apple allows you to create one without any Apple hardware.

What Beeper is doing is not illegal, but Apple is allowed to try and block this any way they can/want.

 

[HylianKnight]

iMessage is not end to end encrypted though. It's the most common target of high profile hackers.

You are incorrect about it not being end-to-end encrypted.

Privacy - Features

Apple is constantly improving the built-in technologies designed to keep your personal information safe.

www.apple.com

 

[HylianKnight]

Its not. But Micro USB at that time wasn’t leaps ahead of the 30 pin connector like how USB-C is.

Micro USB, the USB standard that needs to die first.

 

[djphat2000]

Because you get to build a great machine for less much less than what Apple is charging now. You get to upgrade parts like RAM, SSD, GPU etc versus replacing the whole machine just because you need a little more RAM or a faster CPU. It’s better for the consumer and better for the environment.

We have this, it's called a PC running Windows or Linux (or other) OS. As for upgradability, it's nice to have for sure.
But, for me personally. I don't miss the fan noise of my old intel mac or any Windows laptop. And the power requirements (big boxy power brick). It is a trade off, but one I'm ok. YMMV.

 

[Harthag]

Because "sideloading" makes it sound taboo when it's really not, Apple just makes it out to be taboo. Makes it sound like you're not supposed to install stuff outside of an app store. That's why I hate the term.

Exactly. Apple has people believing if you sideload an app your phone will burst into flames or someone will hack it. It’s ridiculous.

I pay the $99 dev fee to sideload on my iPhone. I have a streaming app installed and a modded version of YouTube that provides a slew of options YT Premium doesn’t provide and should. Hide Shorts among them. And yes I do also pay for YT Premium in case someone suggests I’m pirating, haha.

 

[Michael Scrip]

I think they would've eventually switched to USB-C anyway.

Yet there were many people here convinced that Apple would skip USB-C and go straight to a "portless" iPhone. 🤣

I'm glad they didn't. I love being able to charge my iPhone and my laptop using the same cable... as well as many other devices I own. It's great!

And it's nice to have the option to record ProRes video directly to an SSD from the iPhone. Apple made a big deal about it when they shot their latest event on the iPhone.

Considering all these things... does anyone still think a "portless" iPhone is coming?

Personally I hope not.

😎

 

[canadianreader]

Because "sideloading" makes it sound taboo when it's really not, Apple just makes it out to be taboo. Makes it sound like you're not supposed to install stuff outside of an app store. That's why I hate the term.

Exactly. Apple has people believing if you sideload an app your phone will burst into flames or someone will hack it. It’s ridiculous.

It's worse

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

It's worse

View attachment 2326670

This image is what I like to call "how to destroy your reputation in five seconds." C'mon Craig you were supposed to be the fun one.

I listened in during Craig's testimony during Apple vs Epic and his cross examination he threw the Mac under the bus saying it's not secure like they want it to be, DESPITE CONSTANTLY SAYING DURING APPLE EVENTS AND ADS THAT IT IS

Obligatory: